I have seen quite a few individual hype threads posted but the ones I've seen have all got locked fairly quickly?
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CDPR is a transphobic company. It's time we stop making excuses for them.
- Thread starter Kyuuji
- Start date
Which is good. I still would just prefer we don't have to deal with seeing them pop up in the first place, I guess. Maybe I'm overreacting.
Nah, it starts to get more obvious after a while. Half of the threads are just 'look at this song' or posting a 30 second clip. Mods are right to lock and combine purely from a organization standpoint. But the fact that they are immediately followed by 'Looks great! GOTY' is very telling as well.
Hell, the most recent one was a thread for a preview that legitimately had no info at all, because it was just a placeholder for later. Someone still posted that, then whined about cancel culture. The thread couldn't even last 5 posts before someone was an ass.
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Are there games for which this has actually happened?
Unless the authors themselves see it as an absolute priority while, say, playing the game and writing a review, I think it's natural that articles and analyses about this kind of topic take a bit more time than others on the more "superficial" stuff (gameplay, graphics, and the like). Usually, to fully grasp such aspects of a game you have to dig a little deeper, unless it's a product with very clear stances, which as some people have observed (and some developers even admitted) does not seem to be the case for 2077.
To make an example, since we're talking about CDPR, I don't think there have been articles addressing its overwhelming whiteness until at least a week or so after reviews, if not release. I could be misremembering, though.
Forget it. This is the most hype-fueled release I've witnessed in my lifetime. The media wants clicks, and they won't do a damn that could hamper their coverage of the game. Era isn't much better. You think they want people to move elsewhere? Gestures like stickying this thread are meant to keep trans-Era satisfied enough to stay, while allowing all those that don't give a fuck or worse to keep talking about their beloved video game all the same. In this careful balancing act, who do you think seems to get the short end of the stick?
5 separate OTs for a game is really not needed. It's ridiculous. Especially during this week.
I really agree that we do not need 5 OTs, each for a new trailer/piece of marketing, especially when this thread is pinned and threadmarks exist for this very purpose.
It's almost astroturfing at this point with how many accounts have CP2077 avatars and how the same account keeps rushing to post OTs a day in advance.
Can't we consolidate them all under a "Cyberpunk 2077 pre-release OT" or something?
It's almost astroturfing at this point with how many accounts have CP2077 avatars and how the same account keeps rushing to post OTs a day in advance.
Can't we consolidate them all under a "Cyberpunk 2077 pre-release OT" or something?
l agree that 5 different OT'S for the game is kind of pointless when it's going to be the same people that would post in the main one anyway. If there is new info, just threadmark it. There weren't new OT'S made for like every piece of info for something like before smash ultimate came out.
Hey Kyuuji, thanks for making this thread and condensing all the information we have in a single place.
I've been reading this thread from time to time, especially when it's been stickied. There's one question I haven't seen discussed though, and I can't really find any explanation for it anywhere.
I feel like I've read through most of this thread, but it's always possible I've missed something, so I apologize if someone brought this up before. I have also not followed almost any Cyberpunk news outside of this thread, so my knowledge of the game is restricted to what I learned from this thread from you and the other posters. Finally, I am a cis man, and my understanding of trans issues likely is not as deep as many of the people posting in this thread, and especially the trans folks posting here. I am very aware of all of that, so I've worked hard on posing this question in a respectful way, but if I have been insensitive (especially with terminology) please let me know and I'll edit it immediately and promise to do better next time. I think I can speak for the majority of the community when I say we want trans people to feel welcome and respected in the forum.
With that out of the way, I think one of the most contentious things to have come out of the game is the now infamous "Mix it up" poster, as you described in the OP:
My question is: Do we have any reason to believe this is a trans woman?
The way I interpret this ad is that there is one specific flavor of chromanticore that can give you a penis if you drink it. Not a regular penis either; a gigantic, clearly disproportional penis. The fact that it is so large and made so prominent in the ad is indicative of how this looks like an ad for the penis. If you don't have a penis, but want to have one, buy this drink which can give you one.
In other words, this looks to me like an ad depicting a cis woman who wants to "mix it up" and have a penis for one night, instead of her usual genitals. It could also be depicting a trans woman who underwent sex reassignment surgery and has no penis anymore, which should be indistinguishable from a cis woman, but we have absolutely no signal that this is someone who transitioned in the past. It seems to me like this is most certainly not a trans woman with a penis, which I believe is your interpretation of the poster. This drink probably isn't targeted at someone who already has a penis; it's clearly targeting someone who wants to have a penis but doesn't have one.
At best, I can see the case for the person in the poster being a woman who wants to transition to being a man, so a trans man, but I find even that to be very unlikely, as from the advertising (Mix it up) it seems like this is a temporary effect, not a permanent one, and that consumers would be encouraged to try many different flavors. Furthermore, the woman depicted in the ad doesn't display any traditionally male characteristics other than the penis: no extra body or facial hair, still wearing clothes that fall more towards the feminine end of the spectrum, etc. I don't think we can call a cis woman a trans man just because she (presumably temporarily) has a penis, without any other indication that her gender identity changed.
Basically, from the ad this seems like a drink designed to give cis women, post-SRS trans women, and anyone else who doesn't have a penis a "biological strap-on", which they can use to have sex for a night. This is a drink that gives someone a penis - which means that the woman depicted didn't have had a penis before drinking it, and thus there's no reason at all to believe it's a trans woman. If anything, it makes it more likely that the woman in question is cis, and not trans, because we can also exclude the possibility of it being a trans woman who didn't undergo sex reassignment surgery.
Finally, in the interviews I was able to find with the artist who drew the image, at no point does she say this is a trans woman, or even a trans person at all. The artist doesn't explicitly mention the character's gender, using the neutral pronoun "they" or 'this person" instead: Eurogamer, Polygon. Reading the interviews, you'll notice it's only ever the interviewers that state this is a trans character, while the artist doesn't say that at any point.
This is a woman with a dick. I understand that this is imagery that has been used to mock and humiliate trans women throughout the years, reducing their personhood to their genitalia. However, in this specific context, all evidence points towards this actually being just a (probably cis) woman with a dick, and not a depiction of a trans woman. In no context do we ever interpret someone who didn't have a penis before, but now does, to be a trans woman. Certainly when I saw the poster, my first reaction was "oh, this woman added a penis to herself" rather than "this is a trans woman".
I've been reading this thread from time to time, especially when it's been stickied. There's one question I haven't seen discussed though, and I can't really find any explanation for it anywhere.
I feel like I've read through most of this thread, but it's always possible I've missed something, so I apologize if someone brought this up before. I have also not followed almost any Cyberpunk news outside of this thread, so my knowledge of the game is restricted to what I learned from this thread from you and the other posters. Finally, I am a cis man, and my understanding of trans issues likely is not as deep as many of the people posting in this thread, and especially the trans folks posting here. I am very aware of all of that, so I've worked hard on posing this question in a respectful way, but if I have been insensitive (especially with terminology) please let me know and I'll edit it immediately and promise to do better next time. I think I can speak for the majority of the community when I say we want trans people to feel welcome and respected in the forum.
With that out of the way, I think one of the most contentious things to have come out of the game is the now infamous "Mix it up" poster, as you described in the OP:
Cyberpunk 2077 Adverts / "It's a Dystopia"
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In one of the gameplay reveals in June 2019 this poster was spotted on a surface in the game:
It depicts a fetishized caricature of a trans women, complete with over-emphasised erection, the phrase "Mix It Up" and the name of the advertised drink; "Chromanticore". The issue will be apparent to many but I'll break it down so it's clear. First of all you have the character; a fetishized image of a trans woman's body that is only there to highlight the "trans" nature of her. As mentioned in the opening paragraphs this falls into one of the common ways in which transphobia manifests; reducing us down to our genitals for display at the expense of any sense of us as people. "Mix It Up" implies the frivolous nature of being trans as though we pick and choose our gender identity. Again falling victim to another form of transphobia.
Finally we have "Chromanticore" which on a generous read is a mix of "chrome" and "manticore" and at worst "chromosome" and "manticore". Forgiving the ambiguity of the first word the second still becomes inherently insulting. A manticore is a mythical beast comprised of parts of different animals. On a more subtle level it literally means "man eater", where the fear of men being "tricked" into falling for a trans woman resonates – though I highly doubt this specific aspect was part of the thought process, it works to support the fact that we need more trans women working on products that aim to depict us. On the overt and obvious, it's depicting an over-emphasised trans woman while relating her to a beast. Trans people will know all too well the common insults thrown at them in disgust (3 for 3), relating them to being unnatural or monsters.
My question is: Do we have any reason to believe this is a trans woman?
The way I interpret this ad is that there is one specific flavor of chromanticore that can give you a penis if you drink it. Not a regular penis either; a gigantic, clearly disproportional penis. The fact that it is so large and made so prominent in the ad is indicative of how this looks like an ad for the penis. If you don't have a penis, but want to have one, buy this drink which can give you one.
In other words, this looks to me like an ad depicting a cis woman who wants to "mix it up" and have a penis for one night, instead of her usual genitals. It could also be depicting a trans woman who underwent sex reassignment surgery and has no penis anymore, which should be indistinguishable from a cis woman, but we have absolutely no signal that this is someone who transitioned in the past. It seems to me like this is most certainly not a trans woman with a penis, which I believe is your interpretation of the poster. This drink probably isn't targeted at someone who already has a penis; it's clearly targeting someone who wants to have a penis but doesn't have one.
At best, I can see the case for the person in the poster being a woman who wants to transition to being a man, so a trans man, but I find even that to be very unlikely, as from the advertising (Mix it up) it seems like this is a temporary effect, not a permanent one, and that consumers would be encouraged to try many different flavors. Furthermore, the woman depicted in the ad doesn't display any traditionally male characteristics other than the penis: no extra body or facial hair, still wearing clothes that fall more towards the feminine end of the spectrum, etc. I don't think we can call a cis woman a trans man just because she (presumably temporarily) has a penis, without any other indication that her gender identity changed.
Basically, from the ad this seems like a drink designed to give cis women, post-SRS trans women, and anyone else who doesn't have a penis a "biological strap-on", which they can use to have sex for a night. This is a drink that gives someone a penis - which means that the woman depicted didn't have had a penis before drinking it, and thus there's no reason at all to believe it's a trans woman. If anything, it makes it more likely that the woman in question is cis, and not trans, because we can also exclude the possibility of it being a trans woman who didn't undergo sex reassignment surgery.
Finally, in the interviews I was able to find with the artist who drew the image, at no point does she say this is a trans woman, or even a trans person at all. The artist doesn't explicitly mention the character's gender, using the neutral pronoun "they" or 'this person" instead: Eurogamer, Polygon. Reading the interviews, you'll notice it's only ever the interviewers that state this is a trans character, while the artist doesn't say that at any point.
This is a woman with a dick. I understand that this is imagery that has been used to mock and humiliate trans women throughout the years, reducing their personhood to their genitalia. However, in this specific context, all evidence points towards this actually being just a (probably cis) woman with a dick, and not a depiction of a trans woman. In no context do we ever interpret someone who didn't have a penis before, but now does, to be a trans woman. Certainly when I saw the poster, my first reaction was "oh, this woman added a penis to herself" rather than "this is a trans woman".
You just typed all these paragraphs to say penis a lot, didn't you?
Which is fine, but I don't think I'm grasping what else you're going for?
Which is fine, but I don't think I'm grasping what else you're going for?
The context doesn't matter, though? It's the imagery, imagery that you acknowledge is harmful and has been used against us in many different ways. Keep in mind the signal boosted cosplayer as well, and the ways things were approached in regards to that.
The imagery is harmful to groups outside of the bubble of its 'creative universe', because it affects us and perception of us here in the real world. The specifics of the gender the artist gives her character matters much less than that fact.
Focusing so much on the gender identity of the created character is missing the forest for the trees in this case.
The imagery is harmful to groups outside of the bubble of its 'creative universe', because it affects us and perception of us here in the real world. The specifics of the gender the artist gives her character matters much less than that fact.
Focusing so much on the gender identity of the created character is missing the forest for the trees in this case.
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This isn't an OT for the game, but a place for discussion about the company behind it.
He is referring to the Night City Wire (I assume it's their presentation format, ala a Nintendo Direct or Sony State of Play?) threads, not this thread.
I'm on an extreme blood sugar crash right now, so I can't really respond to this the way I would like to, but the issue with that read of the ad is that it's effectively a reduction and even an erasure of trans identity. Is there something to be said about a future where outward appearance is almost completely secondary to internal identity? Of course. There are plenty of pieces of media that explore transhumanism and the concept of gender fluidity in a world where technology eclipses what we have today.
But this kind of ad isn't doing that - it's making it into a joke. Like so many things in this game, CDPR is using the "it's satire!" veneer of the cyberpunk genre to deflect criticism for making bad jokes that hurt people.
At the end of the day, the pronouns the artist chose to use to describe a fictional model in a fictional advertisement in a press interview really matter less than the obvious pain the ad has caused for real people.
the ad says "16 flavours you'd love to mix." the drink is a drink that you're encouraged to mix with other drinks. the woman has "a mix" of both masculine and feminine sexual characteristics. it's not that deep. it just sucks.
Hang on, gonna go and create 148 Warframe Devstream OT's, one for each missed one as well so that everyone on ERA gets to catch up!
I do agree. Not only that, the game gets a new thread for every teaser, tweet, trailer, news mention, time a developer sneezes outside the office when trying to escape from the crunch. It doesn't need all that. Especially here. Especially considering the reputation the company has.
In this situation, I think it's best to apply lex parsimoniae, or Occam's Razor. The explanation which least insists upon itself, or is based on the least assumption, is usually the correct one.
So our options are:
- Consistently transphobic company used trans imagery to exploit a vulnerable group of people for the lulz and "muh satire, such edge, much commentary". The image is problematic and they are getting what they want out of it
- Some convoluted penis web of penis drink, artist penis intention, considering the life story of a fictional character who has a penis right now (but maybe didn't always have a penis), the possibility of a drink which can give somebody a penis, all the people of varying penis status wanting a particular penis, the one time a CDPR employee appears to be using non-binary pronouns. It's all a misunderstanding and we will be ashamed of our words, deeds and penes. Did I say penis enough times? Big ol' blue penis.
"You see, maybe this isn't a trans woman" is the most cynical argument someone could come up to debate the issues with that ad.
It doesn't matter what kind of background you want to create in your head for that character. What matters is what she will represent to people. She's just a woman in an ad, she has no background, she's not an in-game character, she has no development. The imagery will evoke trans women in the minds of everyone who sees it, and it's an image rooted in transphobia, fetishization and objectification of trans women.
It's CDPR trying to be edgy at the cost of a marginalized portion of society. It's time to accept that instead of doing what the thread title is calling for everyone to stop: making up excuses for them.
It doesn't matter what kind of background you want to create in your head for that character. What matters is what she will represent to people. She's just a woman in an ad, she has no background, she's not an in-game character, she has no development. The imagery will evoke trans women in the minds of everyone who sees it, and it's an image rooted in transphobia, fetishization and objectification of trans women.
It's CDPR trying to be edgy at the cost of a marginalized portion of society. It's time to accept that instead of doing what the thread title is calling for everyone to stop: making up excuses for them.
Essentially Arithmetician the biggest counter argument you present basically boils down to "it must be a cis woman instead of a trans woman, because there is no way trans people would want to be shown this way".
You should really take some time and let that set a bit. Because it is true, and that is the crux of the issue. We don't want to be presented that way.
And past that, even if it were to be the case that it were a cis woman choosing to do it for a night of fun. That is harmful in that it is framed as a choice that people do on a whim. It is something that takes years of thought and meetings to make happen for many of us, and is a massive decision. And you posit that maybe it is justified in universe as simply being a product that allows for choice. It is a terrible idea to promote that anything regarding gender identity is a choice when we are still fighting for basic rights at both the legislative and personal levels. Even moreso as it is the Day of Remembrance in some parts of the world already, so your timing is pretty poor.
You should really take some time and let that set a bit. Because it is true, and that is the crux of the issue. We don't want to be presented that way.
And past that, even if it were to be the case that it were a cis woman choosing to do it for a night of fun. That is harmful in that it is framed as a choice that people do on a whim. It is something that takes years of thought and meetings to make happen for many of us, and is a massive decision. And you posit that maybe it is justified in universe as simply being a product that allows for choice. It is a terrible idea to promote that anything regarding gender identity is a choice when we are still fighting for basic rights at both the legislative and personal levels. Even moreso as it is the Day of Remembrance in some parts of the world already, so your timing is pretty poor.
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Hey Arithmetician I respect your perspective on it though, if I'm being honest, I feel like you have to be being slightly obtuse to hold that position. At best if we take it for granted then the imagery should be obvious in its relation, especially when so much has been angled around the inclusivity aspect of the game. That and the history of the company and the trans community should have made it apparent and I'm not sure I'm going to extend CDPR more innocent ignorance than they're already being extended by others.
I'll return the reference to the artist in that when she, and even Mike Pondsmith, addressed the controversy they never make a point of clarifying that she isn't trans – when it's clearly having been taken as such, and the issue is wholly centred around. Just that it's something we should simultaneously look to fight against and that there's nothing wrong with depending on who was asked. It would have been an obvious clarification to make in response were it not intended, at least to my mind.
So I'm not sure there's much credence to be drawn for the position in relation to them, having not specified that in response to a controversy centred around her as a trans woman. Instead diverting it into the areas mentioned before. Pondsmith even goes as far as to reference the trans staff and friends he has. Neither of them were confused as to why she was taken as a trans woman, and even – in the case of the artist – why people took umbrage with it.
This is also a tad confusing:
The part about a cis woman and a trans man is equally confusing as I'm not sure where being a trans man comes into it?
I'll return the reference to the artist in that when she, and even Mike Pondsmith, addressed the controversy they never make a point of clarifying that she isn't trans – when it's clearly having been taken as such, and the issue is wholly centred around. Just that it's something we should simultaneously look to fight against and that there's nothing wrong with depending on who was asked. It would have been an obvious clarification to make in response were it not intended, at least to my mind.
So I'm not sure there's much credence to be drawn for the position in relation to them, having not specified that in response to a controversy centred around her as a trans woman. Instead diverting it into the areas mentioned before. Pondsmith even goes as far as to reference the trans staff and friends he has. Neither of them were confused as to why she was taken as a trans woman, and even – in the case of the artist – why people took umbrage with it.
This is also a tad confusing:
Why would you expect there to be other traditionally male characteristics like facial hair or male clothes on a trans woman? The former, yes, many trans women still can grow facial hair – many can't – though it's not something that's frequently shown or fetishised around as much. The latter is odd as it seems to suggest trans women would typically wear non-feminine clothing?
The part about a cis woman and a trans man is equally confusing as I'm not sure where being a trans man comes into it?
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Some of you may recall I made a thread about the sexualised ads we've seen from this game so far.
I was watching the new trailers today and saw a close-up version of one of the ads I had included in my thread:
I know it's not strictly related to the topic at hand, but again I feel it is more evidence that CDPR have completely missed the mark here.
Anything they're attempting to say (which has questionable value to begin with) will be lost on the majority of their #gamer audience, who will see these ads and be like "hahah, that's hot" and stereotypes are enforced and sexists are emboldened.
The exact same thing will happen with the transphobic ads/content we've seen thus far, which has potential to be even more harmful given how vilified trans folks are in the real world (and specifically this industry) already.
I was watching the new trailers today and saw a close-up version of one of the ads I had included in my thread:
I know it's not strictly related to the topic at hand, but again I feel it is more evidence that CDPR have completely missed the mark here.
Anything they're attempting to say (which has questionable value to begin with) will be lost on the majority of their #gamer audience, who will see these ads and be like "hahah, that's hot" and stereotypes are enforced and sexists are emboldened.
The exact same thing will happen with the transphobic ads/content we've seen thus far, which has potential to be even more harmful given how vilified trans folks are in the real world (and specifically this industry) already.
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Yeh but you're seeing her as a MILF as we know the term, but how do you know this Dmax? Could it not be that it means "Mature Investments & Lifetime Financials" and is an advert for a security service in banking? Her first rodeo could mean that she's wise to being scammed and wishes to protect herself against these threats. Sex sells so that is why we see her naked and in heels. Which is empowering.. because women. So how are we to really know, hmm?Some of you may recall I made a thread about the sexualised ads we've seen from this game so far.
I was watching the new trailers today and saw a close-up version of one of the ads I had included in my thread:
I know it's not strictly related to the topic at hand, but again I feel it is more evidence that CDPR have completely missed the mark here.
Anything they're attempting to say (which has questionable value to begin with) will be lost on the majority of their #gamer audience, who will see these ads and be like "hahah, that's hot" and stereotypes are enforced and sexists are emboldened.
The exact same thing will happen with the transphobic ads/content we've seen thus far, which has potential to be even more harmful given how vilified trans folks are in the real world already.
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Also a woman did the kerning on the font used in the poster, so CHECKMATE feminists; it's approved by women!
While this joke would be funny in a different context, I think we should refrain from that in this thread, given the sensitivity of the subject matter
Context always matters, especially in matters of identity and representation. I think it's no accident the the very first section in the OP is titled "Context". I think it's a generally understood point that a lot of things that would be fine in an ideal, utopic, universe, are hurtful specifically because of our present context of historical discrimination.
As for the cosplayer, as I understand it the central problem with it was that it was cis woman cosplaying a trans woman, and doing so in a demeaning way. But if the character isn't trans, this becomes a case of a cis woman cosplaying a cis woman, which shouldn't generally be a problem.
I don't think the ad is satire at all, and I think the point of it is not to make a joke. In the artists' words, "It was meant to make people feel uncomfortable [...] because the body is being exploited. I didn't slap the penis there for people to laugh about it." Whether they succeeded or not remains to be seen (I think they haven't), but I don't think it will be used as a joke in-game.
I think the ad is not about trans people at all. It's like an ad for a strap-on - this one just happens to use futuristic tech.
This is not at all deep, I think it's meant to be very straightforward. I think what's being displayed on the ad is one specific flavor: "big dick flavor" or something like that.
While I agree with the principle, I don't think you're applying it correctly. If we assume that the character is a trans woman who hasn't undergone any surgery, then what is the purpose of the drink? The ad doesn't make sense if the character is a pre-surgery trans woman. Conversely, our understanding of CDPR as a consistently transphobic company depends at least in part on the identity of this character.
You do realise this isn't the only ad that sexualises and objectifies trans woman while having an uncomfortable focus on their genitalia, right? The artist doesn't even pretend that this ad isn't a trans woman
I don't think you understand how Occam's Razor works, and I don't think you're arguing in good faith. The in-universe explanation, the purpose of dick drinks and the character's gender identity are irrelevant. They are using mixed gender imagery to fetishize and belittle trans and non-binary people. Regardless of intent, that is the end result.
Just to touch on this point, you seem really certain in your incredibly literal interpretation of an ad, that it's advertising a temporary, one-night only, fantastical physical change. As if advertising never uses endorsement by celebrities or a choice of model to associate brand with lifestyle to appeal to customers.
However, while your lore extrapolation of fantastical and temporary properties of the fantasy drink that you've deduced solely based on the fantasy character used to advertise it seem unlikely to me, that's minor stuff compared to your certainty in your conclusion that nothing is wrong here. Especially in the face of months of people and this well-resourced thread explaining exactly why the visual association between name, image and exploitation in-game used to advertise CDPR's product in the real world is so grossly offensive.
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User Banned (2 weeks): Dismissing concerns of transphobia over multiple posts
The point is, this is not a hypothetical. I think we can be pretty sure it isn't a trans woman. The thought process is as follows:
This is an ad for a product. It has to be depicting the effects of this product. What does the product do? It gives someone a big dick. This is an ad targeting people who don't have dicks.
If you don't think that's the case, then what exactly is the drink supposed to do?
I really believe people should be allowed to do whatever they would like with their bodies, and no one should prevent anyone from having the body they want. I think we as a society must make that a non-negotiable principle. That includes making transition as easy as possible for trans-people, including financial assistance for surgery and hormone therapy, and allowing people to change their self-ID without any obstacles. By the same token, I refuse to view any choice a cis woman might take with regards to her body in anything but a positive light.
Hey Kyuuji, thanks for responding. I appreciate you probably think I'm not acting in good faith, especially given your later posts mocking what I said above (I take it in good spirits, but for the record, it goes without saying that the existence of Quiet as a character is a disgrace), and I don't blame you given how many people act in bad faith with respect to trans issues. I just wanted to say I do learn a lot from the trans community here on Era, and I think it's great to have people like you shining light on issues that, frankly, I wouldn't otherwise be thinking about as a cis man.
I don't know much about the history of CDPR; I actually only know what I've learned from your OP. But from what I read there, the only incident before this poster was revealed were the three horrible edgelord tweets, two from CDPR, one from GOG. Given the tweets were deleted, and especially given that the alt-right troll responsible for them was fired, I don't think we can say that CDPR had a long history of being adversarial towards the trans community at the time we first learned about this poster.
As regards my comments about the character being a trans man, I simply consider that to be more likely than it being a trans woman. I think one could fairly understand the ad to mean "If you're a woman you can drink this in order to become a man". This is why I was talking about secondary sex characteristics, etc.
The question we need to ask here is, what is this ad for? What is it selling? The answer, I think is pretty clear, is that it's selling penises. Trans women don't want to buy penises. This is not an ad targeting trans women.
If you assume the character is a trans woman, and that massive dick is part of her body, then what exactly is the drink doing? It just doesn't make sense.
Ok, so. 👏
A: the point isn't 'look at how gross this depiction of exploitation is in our universe' if they then promote that very character as a mascot of the game. The exploitation is external at that point, and they continue to push the imagery.
B: your referencing of trans people's bodies seems to imply you aren't that familiar with the concept of transitioning, what it entails, and where people feel comfortable saying they have reached the point they want to be. There are some trans women and men who don't have bottom surgery, just as there are some who don't get top surgery. And because there are stages and different effects medication has, body hair and the like can vary greatly— some also have to have laser surgery to take care of hair growth in unwanted areas. But the presence or lack thereof of any of these features is in no way indicative of a person being trans or not, and is not a well-informed argument.
C: a cis woman making a 'joke cosplay' at the detriment of others is deserving of ridicule and criticism. What you are saying about refusing to see the problem in that cosplay is the logical equivalent of seeing someone dress as (insert any number of offensive cosplay outfits) and going, 'it's her body so I refuse to see it as anything but a positive'. Body positivity does not make one immune from critique.
A: the point isn't 'look at how gross this depiction of exploitation is in our universe' if they then promote that very character as a mascot of the game. The exploitation is external at that point, and they continue to push the imagery.
B: your referencing of trans people's bodies seems to imply you aren't that familiar with the concept of transitioning, what it entails, and where people feel comfortable saying they have reached the point they want to be. There are some trans women and men who don't have bottom surgery, just as there are some who don't get top surgery. And because there are stages and different effects medication has, body hair and the like can vary greatly— some also have to have laser surgery to take care of hair growth in unwanted areas. But the presence or lack thereof of any of these features is in no way indicative of a person being trans or not, and is not a well-informed argument.
C: a cis woman making a 'joke cosplay' at the detriment of others is deserving of ridicule and criticism. What you are saying about refusing to see the problem in that cosplay is the logical equivalent of seeing someone dress as (insert any number of offensive cosplay outfits) and going, 'it's her body so I refuse to see it as anything but a positive'. Body positivity does not make one immune from critique.
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You just made me laugh Pepsi out my nose, and I wasn't even drinking any at the time. I'm so glad I'm working from home today so nobody heard my outburst.
what is the purpose of the drink in this advert?
I think it's clearly that it paints your nails for you. why else would the red nails be so prominently featured..
OP
OP
I didn't say a long history, I said there had been a history. One of multiple incidents that resulted in one case with someone being fired. So I'm not willing to believe that understanding that the advert could be viewed as a trans woman flew past them, especially when it's remained uncontested that it is a trans woman. Which is the point you didn't actually reference back to. That this controversy is centred around this being a trans woman and in neither the case of the artist nor Mike Pondsmith (nor anyone) has it been clarified that it isn't, when that would be the obvious clarification to make. Instead you have them – in response to offence and suggestions of it being transphobic as a fetishisation of a trans woman – refer to her as a woman, suggest that it isn't transphobic, that there's nothing wrong aside from being a bad (in the sense of poorly produced) advert or one that's exploitative in intent and that we should be pushing back against it.
So again, I feel like you have to be being obtuse in now suggesting that this is a trans man. Especially after saying it was more likely she was a cis woman. When it's pretty obvious to all that it's a trans woman, courted controversy because of it's caricaturization of a trans woman, and was responded to not by clarifying that she wasn't, but instead that it was intentional.
at this point i don't except you to actually listen but maybe someone else reading this will.
also don't use "we can say" when you're cis and a bunch of trans people have already said there's a history there. there is no "we" here. this is "you" speaking for yourself, at least own up to that.
even if you want to discount the twitter shit, they already had some transphobic stuff in witcher 3 (a man in a dress joke to make characters out to seem deviant), so uh, no. we can say that.
also don't use "we can say" when you're cis and a bunch of trans people have already said there's a history there. there is no "we" here. this is "you" speaking for yourself, at least own up to that.
putting trans men and "a woman who wants to become a man" on a similar level is really gross and you should have probably stopped a couple posts before this.
Look, I am not under the illusion that I'm an all-knowing entity. Indeed, as you say, there are a lot of folks here who are much better-informed about these issues, and they all seem to agree that this ad is problematic, so I am probably the person who's missing something here. I am posting here because I think I must have missed something, and because I think people who know a lot more than me about trans issues will be able to explain why the character is a trans woman.
In the end, I think we'll find out the answer here (or somewhere else, if we end up banning it) when the game launches. Given how prominently it's featured in advertising, I would be surprised if we don't get answers to at least some of these questions one way or another.
I appreciate however that this has been a very long discussion, that trolls come to these topics like moths to a torch, and that for some people these are issues of life and death. I think tempers are high and this is not the kind of discussion people want to have at this point in time. I'm probably making the problem worse for everyone, and as someone mentioned my timing is not great either, so I'll peace out.
Thanks for everyone who took their time to respond to me, especially some of the longer thoughtful responses – it's really helpful and important. Stay strong!
OP
OP
It's been obvious from the jump since literally no one responded to the controversy saying it was a cis woman or a trans man. Instead, again, referring to her as a woman, citing trans friends and colleagues, and suggesting that the reaction – one that was wholly centred around her being a trans woman – was valid since it's an example of exploitation that we're supposed to take issue with. Which, you know, you have to take with a septic tank full of salt with what's come since but it's still apparent that the umbrage brought forth wasn't contested because it was taken that she was trans. It was either that it's supposed to be problematic or that it isn't. Even the cosplayer didn't, who just responded with a "cis people face hardships too" take lol.
You're not missing anything, you just insist on not seeing the obvious point in favour of angling her as a cis woman or a trans man. It's like you're looking at a square and feeling a need to argue it's a cube we're only seeing one side of. There's an obvious answer that's been responded to, and then there's an obtuse way of taking it to be anything other than what it is for the sake of argument. Which is bizarre, since you seem less intent on understanding how it's a trans woman and more on proving how it could be anything but.
You're not missing anything, you just insist on not seeing the obvious point in favour of angling her as a cis woman or a trans man. It's like you're looking at a square and feeling a need to argue it's a cube we're only seeing one side of. There's an obvious answer that's been responded to, and then there's an obtuse way of taking it to be anything other than what it is for the sake of argument. Which is bizarre, since you seem less intent on understanding how it's a trans woman and more on proving how it could be anything but.
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Just want to say within the rule set of the game, hardware and body mods are both popular and demonized (in the original rules more mods meant more imbalance and adverse affects on your character, closest I can think of is games with a sanity meter) specifically because it is a life altering decision, there are no magic drinks that will change your genetics and give you a biological sex change.
Or to avoid the big words and obtuseness that inspired this post, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
paragraph after paragraph of ten cent words doesn't change the fact the posts boil down "I don't want this to be an issue so here is an overly complicated head cannon idea with no basis that actually flies in the face of what tech and possibility is in this particular fashion" all so cis person can once again tell the trans community what they can be offended or not offended about and how they are wrong.
Meanwhile that has real world affects and reinforces social stigma that makes mine and many others life a living hell, and to spew that shit right before we have remembrance for those who have suffered violence just for the sake of being trans really takes the cake.
Your not an ally so either stop pretending or become a real ally and trust the people affected instead of a huge corporation who was also defended with "three tweets and they fired the person responsible " which isn't the truth of the matter.
Fucking when will it end. I think have turned back around on this, the trans community will get no peace as long as this game is being discussed here. I am so damn tired...
Or to avoid the big words and obtuseness that inspired this post, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
paragraph after paragraph of ten cent words doesn't change the fact the posts boil down "I don't want this to be an issue so here is an overly complicated head cannon idea with no basis that actually flies in the face of what tech and possibility is in this particular fashion" all so cis person can once again tell the trans community what they can be offended or not offended about and how they are wrong.
Meanwhile that has real world affects and reinforces social stigma that makes mine and many others life a living hell, and to spew that shit right before we have remembrance for those who have suffered violence just for the sake of being trans really takes the cake.
Your not an ally so either stop pretending or become a real ally and trust the people affected instead of a huge corporation who was also defended with "three tweets and they fired the person responsible " which isn't the truth of the matter.
Fucking when will it end. I think have turned back around on this, the trans community will get no peace as long as this game is being discussed here. I am so damn tired...
Again, if we're talking about the original game books, CDPR could've easily just changed the rules or technology of the setting as part of the 50-year time skip. The rules of the original 80's game book aren't really an excuse.
An excuse for what? Are you saying you agree with that poster that the mix it up girl is a cis woman who drank something that gave her a penis? Because if they changed the rules and wrote that in I would sure love to see it.
I am going with that poster was trying to defend transphobia and coming up with crazy reasons how it wasn't transphobic, except under the original rules his reasoning couldn't exist and I have seen nothing from the company that has proven itself transphobic over and over changed that, especially since if the case really was that you would think they would have defended themselves with that instead of "future bad" when they were brought to the carpet the first time.
Official Staff Communication
In recognition of International Transgender Day of Remembrance, we've made the decision to lock all threads about Cyberpunk 2077 for today (November 20th) to raise awareness about the concerns related to the publisher and the game. Originally the plan was to close the OT on this date as it was the day after the game was due to release; there will still be an OT closure on the day after release to honor that commitment. However, with marketing for the game now in full swing, this is another way to draw attention to the issue. The threads will be reopened tomorrow.
Oh I wasn't even paying attention to that conversation. I just thought you were talking about the "it's part of the lore" excuse in general.
I have no idea how someone could make that assumption about the Chromanticore drink.
No, yeah wires crossed I was trying to articulate my point but without directly quoting, already got blocked by someone who was tone policing, who came back and doubled down on ignoring people who say they were tone policing, still not getting that telling trans people it's their job to educate even if they don't want to is the definition of tone policing.
Since then I am trying not to direct quote the actual posts especially when others already have, and I just wanted to make the point that even the lore doesn't support their weird defense theory that it was a cis woman who got a penis from the drink.
But by posting it without a direct quote I can see how you could have interpreted it differently, and am glad to know that's what it was.
What on Earth? Frankly thats an absurd and asinine conclusion. "It has to be depicting the effects of the product". Have you even seen adverts now? Red bull doesn't actually give you wings to allow flight, though thats what they advertise. Lynx doesn't actually make you smell so nice that women will fall over themselves to make out with you. Drinking a can of Tango (and I'm showing my age now) doesn't magically allow a large orange man to appear and slap you in your face. and so on ad nauseum.
Your thought process is deeply flawed since you seemingly lack experience of contemporary advertising. Unless you believe CDPR have deliberately and consciously created a world where advertising has become purely literal in the next 50 years and make no reference to that elsewhere.
[edit] ugh....
That whole thing has angred and saddened me. Here, for those of you not ancient or English, here is what used to LITERALLY happen when you drank a can of orange Tango in the 90's. it used to happen, honestly, why else would they have shown it.
In honor of the Day of Remembrance, here is a list provided by Transrespect versus Transphobia (a TGEU project) of reported murders of trans-people world wide, with cited sources and synopses. Do not read if you are squeamish or if it will have adverse effect on your well being, but it is important we read and understand that this is a very real issue still. List of Remembrance
More importantly, we should take this time to remember our brothers and sisters. Remember that they lived, that they deserved better. But most important of all, that they were loved. For those of you who are vulnerable, you are always welcome here. We always have your backs, and you will never lack our support.
Stay safe, stay proud. You are loved.
More importantly, we should take this time to remember our brothers and sisters. Remember that they lived, that they deserved better. But most important of all, that they were loved. For those of you who are vulnerable, you are always welcome here. We always have your backs, and you will never lack our support.
Stay safe, stay proud. You are loved.
To be fair, we did do that to each other in the school playground if anyone drank it 😂
They banned Tango in my school (I'm both ancient and English) after one kid allegedly got badly hurt by another clapping them on the ears like that. I still remember the tabloids talking about it, the complaints about the silly tag line of '*clapped ears* You know when you've been tangoed' being both catchy and dangerous, and the urban legends it spawned in the playground about burst ear drums. No urban legends about some orange dude running around slapping kids though, funny that.
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