Yeah we didnt even wait to see someone drinking a can TBH. Perforated eardrums was the reason it was banned for us too. Strangely no large orange men either.
Bad example maybe, not the worst on this page though ;)
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CDPR is a transphobic company. It's time we stop making excuses for them.
- Thread starter Kyuuji
- Start date
Yeah we didnt even wait to see someone drinking a can TBH. Perforated eardrums was the reason it was banned for us too. Strangely no large orange men either.
Bad example maybe, not the worst on this page though ;)
Reworked my post with a bit of extra information into a Day of Remembrance thread.
Stay safe, and much love.
Stay safe, and much love.
I was typing a post then remembered I already commented on these fictional ads last year. There's no misconstruing what they're meant for, it's pure fetishization. The fetishization of "women with dicks", whether it's of a pre-op transwoman (or decides to not have surgery) or a "cis woman" with a dick mod, is not going to be seen as simply "cis woman who wants a dick", the fine specifics do not matter to transphobes. CDPR is not excused to pretend what goes on in the real world does not exist anymore because they're making a game set in a futuristic time period, they don't get to say "transgender people are accepted in our game, so we can fetishize them now and have the big bad corporation exploit them for profit!". The game still exists in 2020, it's going to be relevant to 2020, and right now, in 2020, this fetishization is used to hurt transwomen and treat them like objects, not people. CDPR IS the "big bad company" they're showing off in their game when they use this imagery of what they see as transwomen to market the game.
Going back through the last few pages, and this is a very good post 💜
Maybe my input in this thread isn't welcome since I'm a cis white male so I can't/shouldn't pretend that I know what you go through, so I believe that the best course of action for someone like me is to inform myself and show empathy for another human being that is suffering because of this company decisions and actions
Thank you Kyuuji for this extremely informative OT and thank you everyone affected for voicing your concerns, it really helps me understand why this is big issue that should be addressed before anything else. It shames me to say (while I risk myself of getting banned, I believe) that before this OT was pinned I've been extremely hyped for this game and saw no evil in any piece of media that CDPR threw my way, and now, after reading all this, I feel a heavy sense of guilt for feeling that way and even hyping it for my friends
I'm not buying this game and I won't hype it any longer, while I'll also redirect people to this thread if I need to prove why we shouldn't hype/support this game
Words online only mean so much, so I understand if what I'm saying is the same as a blank comment, but hopefully my moral decisions help bringing a future where everyone is safe
Thank you Kyuuji for this extremely informative OT and thank you everyone affected for voicing your concerns, it really helps me understand why this is big issue that should be addressed before anything else. It shames me to say (while I risk myself of getting banned, I believe) that before this OT was pinned I've been extremely hyped for this game and saw no evil in any piece of media that CDPR threw my way, and now, after reading all this, I feel a heavy sense of guilt for feeling that way and even hyping it for my friends
I'm not buying this game and I won't hype it any longer, while I'll also redirect people to this thread if I need to prove why we shouldn't hype/support this game
Words online only mean so much, so I understand if what I'm saying is the same as a blank comment, but hopefully my moral decisions help bringing a future where everyone is safe
No no, you got this wrong.
I wasn't making fun of the subject matter, I was making fun of you for putting so much thought into a very bad take.
Hey all, I've been thinking about what everyone said overnight.
... I was wrong. I finally got it as I went to sleep last night.
I went way off the deep end with my head canon. As several people repeatedly tried to explain to me, I guess this is really just... a soft drink, for drinking, with no other effects. The "mix it up" is using the trans model as a punchline. It's not that deep. Now that I've seen it I can't unsee it, it was so obvious looking back, I can't believe it took 20 people explaining it to me before I got it.
I also agree that the creators should've clarified the situation by now if this were what I thought it was. It's really telling that they haven't made any conciliatory gestures at all towards the trans community.
I thank the poster who talked about Cyberpunk's rules, I had no idea about that and it alsomakes things even clearer.
I guess I was blind to the reality because my brain couldn't even process they would try to go for something so shallow and crass. In a future that allows people to change their bodies... THIS is what they decide to go for? What a completely missed opportunity to actually do something a little deeper with this topic. I completely understand why the trans community is furious now. And obviously, now that I've put my reality glasses on, it brings everything else CDPR is doing into sharp detail too, and I can see how there's a consistent pattern of transphobia throughout it all.
Looking back, I'm embarrassed about some of the things I said, literally cringing right now thinking back to it. I'm sorry to have wasted everyone's time and emotional labor on this, and I apologize in particular to the trans members of ResetERA. I know it probably seems crazy to you all, but I don't think I would've ever gotten it without talking to people about it - I was really that blinded to the very banal explanation.
... I was wrong. I finally got it as I went to sleep last night.
I went way off the deep end with my head canon. As several people repeatedly tried to explain to me, I guess this is really just... a soft drink, for drinking, with no other effects. The "mix it up" is using the trans model as a punchline. It's not that deep. Now that I've seen it I can't unsee it, it was so obvious looking back, I can't believe it took 20 people explaining it to me before I got it.
I also agree that the creators should've clarified the situation by now if this were what I thought it was. It's really telling that they haven't made any conciliatory gestures at all towards the trans community.
I thank the poster who talked about Cyberpunk's rules, I had no idea about that and it alsomakes things even clearer.
I guess I was blind to the reality because my brain couldn't even process they would try to go for something so shallow and crass. In a future that allows people to change their bodies... THIS is what they decide to go for? What a completely missed opportunity to actually do something a little deeper with this topic. I completely understand why the trans community is furious now. And obviously, now that I've put my reality glasses on, it brings everything else CDPR is doing into sharp detail too, and I can see how there's a consistent pattern of transphobia throughout it all.
Looking back, I'm embarrassed about some of the things I said, literally cringing right now thinking back to it. I'm sorry to have wasted everyone's time and emotional labor on this, and I apologize in particular to the trans members of ResetERA. I know it probably seems crazy to you all, but I don't think I would've ever gotten it without talking to people about it - I was really that blinded to the very banal explanation.
Hey glad you came around. At first when I read your post and the hypothetical explanations, I was like "oh no another troll" and was just going to report but glad to hear you're back in reality. I can get that maybe you had given CDPR the benefit of the doubt because this kind of bigotry is more stealthy than just blatant transmisogyny. Keep listening and learning!
Interesting OP. I read the whole thing and while I didn't see every single issue the same way as the OP did, it's hard to argue that argue against saying that at the very least, they're insensitive to the trans community and are ok with making random insults towards the trans community out of the blue with seemingly no provocation or anything.
Hey Arithmetican,
Kudos for coming back and re-engaging. I am as happy by that post as I was annoyed by the initial post I replied to. Thanks for taking the time to understand. It really is as "simple" as they made it without any subtext. Which aside from the transphobia issues would be offputting anyway, they really don't give the impression that they have put any real "effort" into expanding the genre or doing anything fresh or original, and just like (as I have said before) Neon, sex and blade arms.
Anyway I'm happy you could understand a little better and felt comfortable enough to return.
OP
OP
Going to put a note here Gaming side that the Remembrance thread putting out the names of the trans people reported murdered this past year is ongoing:
www.resetera.com
Some of the points of note gathered from this past year of data:
Transgender Day of Remembrance 2020
Today is the 20th November; the Trans Day of Remembrance. It is a day where we remember the trans people reported murdered between last year until now. Where we reflect on the senseless violence that trans people face simply through existing. For obvious reasons this thread will have less...
www.resetera.com
Some of the points of note gathered from this past year of data:
- 98% of those murdered globally were trans women or trans feminine people;
- 62% of murdered trans people whose occupation is known were sex workers;
- People of colour make up 79% of the 28 trans people murdered in the USA;
- 11 trans people murdered in Europe; 50% were migrants;
- 82% of all the murders registered happened in Central and South America; 43% in Brazil;
- 38% of the murders took place on the street and 22% in their own residence;
- The average age of those murdered is 31 years old; the youngest being 15 years old.
Hey, I just wanted to say thank you for that. It's a natural response to double down sometimes when you are met in a way you don't expect, but I am glad that after some time you were able to listen and understand a bit better. It is the reason why many of us still post and discuss with people who may be simply arguing in bad faith — it's about the ones who aren't, who you can have a real discourse with. I don't expect others to do it, because that isn't fair, but I do it myself in hopes of finding people like you.
If you were temp banned, or requested a ban, I just want you to know that at least as far as I'm concerned, you are always welcomed here.
Yeah I feel this; while I hope the game will present things in a mature manner (and i'll certainly be paying attention to reviews), the social media / marketing team really could have handled issues more intelligently and kindly when they're brought to attention. I also understand gay and trans rights aren't really at an acceptable level in Poland broadly speaking, and it doesn't excuse them of everything when marketing a game to a global audience. I think it's good to bring attention to issues and hope that they will pay attention and do better in the future. I'm still excited for the game in the end but there's certainly room for discussion and understanding.
It won't be, it's already bad as stated in the OP. And reviewers? I've not seen a single comment / article about this from any of the bigger places, I can recall one article touching on CDPR / CP2077 transphobia. CDPR are aware, they have had plenty of opportunities to show they care or will do better. They are not interested in doing that.
One reason we may have not seen anything on it in previews is because it is a sensitive topic and without being able to review the full game and what commentary it might have on the issue, reviews wouldn't have a full picture to base a conversation on. I might also note CDPR hasn't been the greatest in regards to how females or other genders had been presented in the Witcher series of games. IIRC the first Witcher game had a trading card sort of system based around sleeping with prostitutes. The latter games have improved in a very general sense and do touch on societal issues in a serious manner (The Bloody Baron Quest line comes to mind) so I think people could say there is room for improvement and in the past they have shown some ability to change over time.
Why aren't reviewers and previewers being sent full builds for review? You don't send 30 minutes of a film to Ebert and expect him to write a review. By sending versions of the game that may hide things, reviewers can give glowing reviews before the inherent issues come out. This is an increasing trend in the industry and is scummy as fuck.
I would also note that there was a thread decrying The Witcher 3 for its issues with sexism just a week or two ago. If they had shown ability to change over time, would that thread have still existed? From the perspective of a member of the trans community, I have no inclination or reason to believe CDPR has shown any signs of advancement beyond slapping new graphical paint onto their products.
I'm going to be honest, I don't see the Bloody Baron quest as handling female character's or woman issues well at all, to me it's more of using a woman's suffering as a way to make the game edgy and dark without actually going properly into the issue, something that CDPR does quite a lot with different minorities and suspect will do the same in Cyberpunk. The Bloody Baron questline at the heart of it is a domestic violence case which centres the story on how the abuser is affected, not the victim. In fact it does worse than that where quite frankly the game punishes her for going away from her abuser (and of course has to make it more "grey" that she did something wrong and make her a cheater, just ugh) where she ends up enslaved to witches (another bad layer, she ends up enslaved to witches who eat children as payment for her getting an abortion from them, which makes the botchling looking like the ads you see on pro life posters grosser) and the only ending where she doesn't end up dead, is the one where she's turned into a monster with quite literally no will of her own and with her abuser and it's not entirely clear that there is a cure. I have really strong feelings about that quest and it really urks me that this is seen as such good game writing as it's basically using shock value t hide the pretty horrible things it's actually telling.
Oh I wasn't trying to equate the prostitution to the bloody baron questline directly; that was more to point that they're tacking some pretty serious issues in their quest lines. The point I was trying to make is that previously they had really gamified prostitution with the trading card system whereas in more recent entries you can sleep with people but it has no ties to completion and is there in a more optional way. I wonder if there may be some quest lines in Cyberpunk that delve into sexuality and gender issues?
EDIT: For some interesting discussion on the quest posted here previously - https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...-in-the-witcher-3-so-praised-spoilers.165804/
I think the centering of the story on the Baron himself makes sense considering the game world and story - you go to the town to find more about Ciri and have to deal with him to get information. I don't see the quest line as 'punishing' the victim, rather, it's just how the story pans out - not everything is going to be all sunshine and rosy and the game goes to lengths to lean into that - it's a pretty grim world with racism and people hanging from trees all across the lands.
Well, who knows what 'builds' they're being sent currently. The game isn't out until next month and they're not going to give people unlimited time with a preview. I'd also like to note i'm not arguing that Witcher 3 is completely free of sexism; it is not. I was making a comparison that over the entries they've improved. There are strong female characters in the game but there are also still female prostitutes and general sexism. I'm not sure where you might draw the line as being part of a games world, similar to the racist elements that are needed for the story.
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I think the post around 12 hours ago was the reason for the ban. I kinda hope it gets reviewed TBH as that apology seemed sincere and genuine and came without any extra prompting, i.e. truthfully after Arithmetician had slept on it like they said.
I don't know if you're going to see this, but I want you to know that you should be proud of being able to empathize and understand. It takes a lot to come here and write what you just wrote, and you are going to make more misteps. That's normal. What counts is how to handle those missteps. Listen to people's feelings and why a community of people are offended by something, fight alongside and for them.
Way too many people stay bullheaded in their beliefs and fears of being wrong, so they continuously double down, give yourself some credit here. And if people aren't privy to having to explain their feelings to you, also understand that they aren't obligated or are simply tired of doing so and likely aren't getting upset at you in particular, in terms of future conversations you may have with marginalized peoples. Doing your own research and reading about the thoughts and feelings of those directly harmed or offended go a long way in showing you care about doing your own research.
I'm not trans, or even marginalized, but as someone who grew up in ignorance, this is all stuff I had to learn too.
1) that thread is mainly male posters saying it's fine because "It's how the world/story is" (CDPR are the ones that chose to write it that way and I'm not sure you can say it's the source material as The Witcher Netflix series is the same source material and doesn't treat their female characters the same) , "medieval times were just like that " (how does that excuse doing the story from the point of view of the abuser?) etc. CDPR is not the only one that does this, gaming has a long history of using minorities struggles as ways of making their games seem "serious" and "mature" without actually properly addressing the issues or giving the minorities their own view in the portrayal. The Bloody Baron is just another example of taking a topic that is affecting a particular minority and then putting it for the dominant person's point of view, in this case and as it's gaming usually is the white straight cis man. It's not surprising that a lot of posters in this forum have no problem with that because most of them , just due to how gaming community demographics are , are going to be mostly male posters - having the point of view be positioned in that way is not going to be that startling to them as they are used to it. But putting it as the Bloody Barons point of view has serious issues, he gets a lot of time spent humanise him and developing him as a character, Anna on the other side exists to be a victim, she gets no right to exist outside that as a person with wants and feeling of her own. She's so dehumanised by the story that not only do they not develop her as a person with wants and feelings of her own, they literally reduce her to a non-human, a monster who can't express her wants in any way.
Another article I read recently discussed this affect with TLOU2 and how it treats its black characters. It described how when this one black female character called Nora was dying, was being murdered, the camera didn't focus on her, it was focused on Ellie, her murderer, and how she was reacting to the events and how it was affecting her. Nora wasn't even the most important person in her own murder, it was all about Ellie instead. How we portray victims and marginalised groups is important and allowing them to suffer just so they are props in someone else's story is not okay. Marginalised people's suffering is not the games industry window dressing.
2) I actually posted in that thread you linked lol
I always found it weird that'd when people mention serious issues with a story that's supposed to be grim, the main defense is that it can't be all sunshine and roses. It's possible to have dark stories with nuance and tackling sensitive topics with seriousness. Life is Strange 2 is a different kind of game, but it's absolutely a dark story in an oppressive world that deals with its themes in a well-thought manner.
Both The Witcher 2 and 3 were very sexist. There only difference is that they replaced the cards you get during sex with expensive and highly detailed cutscenes that were clearly targeted to its male audience. If you bought TW2 on GOG, you got a digital Playboy magazine with Triss. TW3 had sex in a unicorn and even in the clouds.
And if we go back to Cyberpunk, we all remember how the game was announced. It's "curious" how, to show an oppressive world, the minorities and women are the only ones suffering from it. The marketing, of course, targets mostly white men. If this is supposed to be a warning about the future, why does it feel very much like our real lives these days?
It's funny (not really) how cyberpunk as a genre was this speculative fiction focused on dystopian futures and using that as a way of saying, "MAYBE WE SHOULDN'T AIM FOR THIS" and now it's just, well, it's that "wow, cool future" image. It's what makes me wonder if there'll be something of substance underneath the flash, but I don't see it happening.
Some More News recently put out an amazing (and long) video that sort of talks about this sort of thing regarding film:
Right? So remember one video where CDPR devs had happy smiles saying "we can make a game as edgy as we want" (paraphrasing). That's what this is for them, not actual discussion about a possible future.
User Banned (2 weeks): inappropriate pedantry
I gotta call you out on this, there are 100% modern adverts that depict the "effects" of the products literally.
What immediately came to mind was cosmetic stuff you have to visually show off. Clothes, make-up, glasses or laser eye surgery etc but theres also the ones with not exaggerated imagery but 'idealized'(?) imagery eg toothpaste/toothbrushes where everyone has perfect white straight teeth or home gym equipment/programs where everyone is already ripped and superfit, in general just attractive people everywhere with said product in the periphery.
OP
OP
Her contention was with claiming that an advert has to display the effects of a product though, not that some do.
Thank you friend, I'm glad it's been useful for people.
The post I was responding to concluded that the only way one could read the advert was that the drink somehow would give the drinker a penis, and we knew that as "fact" as it was an advert and an advert HAS to show what the product it is advertising does.
My rebuttal is that an Advert absolutely DOES NOT HAVE to show what the product does in order for it to be an advert, especially for something like a soft drink.
That poster initially was bending over backwards to seemingly claim all adverts are literal, that was what I was responding to, at no point (I think) did I imply nor intend to imply that no advert could be literal.
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Also I feel compelled to "call you out on this" but this was your sole contribution to this thread, a thread outlining CDPR's transphobic behaviour, with terrible responses and reactions belittling the hurt this causes people in the Trans community. The one post that "angered" enough, incensed you enough to feel compelled to speak out was mine, and use that to argue against a point I didn't make?
Why do you always write more succinctly and clearly than I Kyuuji, perhaps its growing up in the North East, it's a wonder I can type at all. :)
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Just wanted to say thanks to everyone involved in making this thread and keeping it updated.
It's extremely depressing seeing dedicated OTs with (what I presume to be) official marketing lines as subheaders pop up for pretty much every preview for this game, and the ways in which people in those threads just completely ignore anyone bringing up these concerns.
It's extremely depressing seeing dedicated OTs with (what I presume to be) official marketing lines as subheaders pop up for pretty much every preview for this game, and the ways in which people in those threads just completely ignore anyone bringing up these concerns.
Hi again,
I notice your ban was reduced given your apology and understanding, I'm glad that happened.
I don't know if you're reading now, but I still appreciate the effort you made in coming back and speaking so sincerely.
That one day ban on CP2077 threads really didn't accomplish much did it? the CDPR / CP2077 hype machine just keeps on rolling like nothing happened, no one really acknowledged anything when the thread was opened again, posts not understanding why people are upset continue to happen.
Not that I'm surprised, just feels like it shows how pointless of a gesture it was
Not that I'm surprised, just feels like it shows how pointless of a gesture it was
Was gonna say, is anybody really surprised? :D
The idea alone was laughable, the execution almost non-existent. People keep ignoring the issue and the hype train keeps going.
I know mods don't wanna hear this but seriously, what did anyone expect by moving all hype threads into each other instead of shutting then down. It's gonna be the same with the eventual ot, and there's not much to change about it. I'm just left honestly curious if the next transphobic, homophobic or racist game will be treated this "fairly" when it's not potentially keeping tons of fans on the site. My guess is hell no.
I'm absolutely shockedThis made me.. Laugh, I guess
Yeah, what an empty gesture that led to absolutely nothing.
I didn't see that because I've been ignoring every hype thread for Cyberpunk, but one part of the staff message caught my attention: "to raise awareness." Did it do that? It doesn't seem like it did. I hope the admins and mods take a lesson out of that, and if they hope to raise awareness during the launch period, they need to do something different.
These threads raise awareness. Locking threads for hours does not. It's already like it never happened.
I'd love to see that for myself, but I can't bother looking for it in all thirty-four OTs this game has before even launching.This made me.. Laugh, I guess
Yeah, what an empty gesture that led to absolutely nothing.
Yeah, I meant the hype thread, not this one. I feel like banning hype threads (OT, review thread, trailers, Night Wire stuff) for a period of time (one week, two, until the end of the year, or permanently) starting from the launch week - or maybe even starting from the beginning of the month - would be way more effective. I'm sorry to anyone who wishes to discuss the game considering its transphobic content. But maybe they could even use this thread for that.
Or the solution is something else entirely. But it has to be something that doesn't make trans users in this forum feel less validated than the ones hyped about this game.
Sorry I was agreeing with you.
Yeah, banning threads for a week or two would be better, still a bandaid though
.This made me.. Laugh, I guess
Yeah, what an empty gesture that led to absolutely nothing.
Honestly, seeing as shutting down discussion for a day did absolutely nothing and an outright ban is never going to happen(inb4 whataboutisms about other devs) locking the OT for a day when it releases will just produce the same result so honestly, as much as it pains me to say it, why bother?
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Other than the obvious lack of empathy for trans people issues, I feel that the people ignoring what's going on are lacking vision of what they could do to actually "fix the issue" while remaining selfish
If they "supported" (not whole heatedly, since it obviously doesn't weight on their conscience) the cause, chances are that something could possibly be done, and maybe CDPR would finally do something about it and apologize
It wouldn't "clean their plate" but maybe speaking about the game would be something okay to do once again
At this rate CP2077 OT's will end up banned, nothing will be done about the issue at hand and people who want to talk about the game will move on to a different platform
If they "supported" (not whole heatedly, since it obviously doesn't weight on their conscience) the cause, chances are that something could possibly be done, and maybe CDPR would finally do something about it and apologize
It wouldn't "clean their plate" but maybe speaking about the game would be something okay to do once again
At this rate CP2077 OT's will end up banned, nothing will be done about the issue at hand and people who want to talk about the game will move on to a different platform
This is a question I posed last week.
Outside of it being something that was promised to happen....just why? It will do nothing and it will NOT help us or our cause. The people who want to play and talk about it are not going to care to much, and will just go else where.
The people that care? They are actually few in number and honestly? If they care then they already fucking know what CDPR is doing.
I am geared up for the Hogwarts game to receive more criticism for potential microtransactions (it is WB publishing afterall) than everything JK has said over the past few years.
In general I'm expecting that game to receive more flack because the sorts of people rushing to defend CP2077 probably aren't the types to enjoy Harry Potter. I think a general ban for that one is more likely as a result. Tho there was that depressing poll from a few months back.
Are they as aggressive? Hmm maybe not.
However the announcement threads and the few we've had since where filled with people saying Fuck JK...but I'm still getting the game *for the sake of the developers*.
Supporting bigotry is supporting bigotry and while one of these situations are better than the other, as a TransWoman who continues to watch people put their toys above my people's basic human rights I don't really feel it's much better than a really terrible set of relative experiences