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paranoodle

Member
Nov 18, 2019
100
switzerland
The problem with this is that no one who would be willing to leave the forum if a ban happened is truly willing to learn. Again, I'm not trans, so I can't speak for them, but I am a minority, and I know how it feels to not be listened.

It's better to have a place with fewer members but who are willing to learn about these issues than a bigger, more relevant place that is full of people who prefer to turn a blind eye.
yeah this is pretty close to how i feel about it too. i understand the mods are in a complicated balancing act with this entire situation and i haven't been here enough to be familiar enough with the culture here to really have anything to add, so i don't want to start something on that front. (this is a reply both to you and to your quoted post together)

but as a trans person the thing with this entire situation for me is that while yes, education is good, and i'm grateful to the people who've explained so so much in these threads, i feel like that's a different thing than the much bigger concern of whether trans people feel respected around discussion of this game or whether they have to constantly feel like their personhood is a less important topic than Fun Videogame Discussion. i'm not sure how to word it.

like, obviously i'm not going to go out and start fights with anyone who decides to play this, but it's not like i can just sit there and watch a bunch of people ignore the issues with it and enjoy it without feeling hurt, you know.
 

Cerbero

Member
Nov 3, 2017
373
User banned (2 weeks): dismissing concerns around transphobia
The problem with this is that no one who would be willing to leave the forum if a ban happened is truly willing to learn. Again, I'm not trans, so I can't speak for them, but I am a minority, and I know how it feels to not be listened.

It's better to have a place with fewer members but who are willing to learn about these issues than a bigger, more relevant place that is full of people who prefer to turn a blind eye.
Devil's advocate: this is a gaming board that relies on Ads, driving away traffic for the most anticipated game isn't a smart move.
Business is business.
 

Beth Cyra

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,903
Devil's advocate: this is a gaming board that relies on Ads, driving away traffic for the most anticipated game isn't a smart move.
Business is business.
This is the mindset that allows the continued use of Transphobia in the manner in which CDPR has done so.

We as a people are by and large a non factor. Using us? Fetishizing us? That can absolutely be good for business.

So kindly understand why I think this mind set can fuck off.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,560
The forum is not going to collapse just because we decide to ban 2077. If it does than it probably deserve it.
 

ConVito

Member
Oct 16, 2018
3,084
Devil's advocate: this is a gaming board that relies on Ads, driving away traffic for the most anticipated game isn't a smart move.
Business is business.
The devil does just fine for himself. He doesn't need your help.

I guarantee people wouldn't be this "on the fence" if the issue were blatant racism or antisemitism or something like that. This mindset does nothing but aid the idea that trans rights aren't as important as some company's bottom line, and it's horse shit.
 

b417

Banned
Oct 24, 2020
5
If trans people become an accepted part of society, they will eventually be hyper-sexualized, if not more so based on the way society is going. This game takes place in the far future, so it's like a view of what things may look like.

To me the society the artists are trying to portray is one of hyper-sexualization, violence, debauchery, excess, etc. of which transgender people are also a part of. Granted it is a view of transgender people from the lens of straight males, but that's the largest/target audience for this product.
 

paranoodle

Member
Nov 18, 2019
100
switzerland
If trans people become an accepted part of society, they will eventually be hyper-sexualized, if not more so based on the way society is going. This game takes place in the far future, so it's like a view of what things may look like.

To me the society the artists are trying to portray is one of hyper-sexualization, violence, debauchery, excess, etc. of which transgender people are also a part of. Granted it is a view of transgender people from the lens of straight males, but that's the largest/target audience for this product.
trans people are already hypersexualized. acceptance, not to say respect, begins with dismantling that.

"transphobia is acceptable when the target audience is cis men" isn't the defense you think it is.
 

ConVito

Member
Oct 16, 2018
3,084


Opinions on CDPR having the future of pop trans artist Sophie in the game?

Benefiting from a trans woman's image with one hand while denying trans people's humanity with the other.

If trans people become an accepted part of society, they will eventually be hyper-sexualized, if not more so based on the way society is going. This game takes place in the far future, so it's like a view of what things may look like.

To me the society the artists are trying to portray is one of hyper-sexualization, violence, debauchery, excess, etc. of which transgender people are also a part of. Granted it is a view of transgender people from the lens of straight males, but that's the largest/target audience for this product.
So you'd see no issues whatsoever with the game featuring a Black woman in some skimpy leopard print loincloth and face paint next to a Native American woman wearing a feathery headdress and nothing else?
 

b417

Banned
Oct 24, 2020
5
User banned (permanent): Troll account; Dismissing concerns around transphobia over multiple posts
trans people are already hypersexualized. acceptance, not to say respect, begins with dismantling that.

"transphobia is acceptable when the target audience is cis men" isn't the defense you think it is.

I believe in artistic freedom. It's not every artist's job to try reshape the world for the greater good.

The Cyberpunk genre does not portray anyone in a positive light, it's a dystopian world based on what if the worst parts of the 80's continued and just got worse. Trans, straight, gay, rich, poor, anything.

I like the genre, I enjoy the satire and how it points out the flaws in our society. I enjoy all the art and world/lore building I have seen from this game.

I'm 100% for trans rights, etc. and I don't have an issue with anything CDPR has done personally.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,126
UK
Devil's advocate: this is a gaming board that relies on Ads, driving away traffic for the most anticipated game isn't a smart move.
Business is business.
100719.devilsadvocate.jpg


Being a devil's advocate is a bad thing. A bad faith thing. It shows someone doesn't have skin in the game and makes dispassionate and directionless arguments, without offering solutions. In 1983, the Pop abolished the devil's advocate and was able to improve things. Just a little trivia. Get rid of the devil's advocate, bring in the angel's advocate.
 

Kyrona

Member
Jul 9, 2020
509
I believe in artistic freedom. It's not every artist's job to try reshape the world for the greater good.

The Cyberpunk genre does not portray anyone in a positive light, it's a dystopian world based on what if the worst parts of the 80's continued and just got worse. Trans, straight, gay, rich, poor, anything.

I like the genre, I enjoy the satire and how it points out the flaws in our society. I enjoy all the art and world/lore building I have seen from this game.

I'm 100% for trans rights, etc. and I don't have an issue with anything CDPR has done personally.

That shit doesn't matter because things are already that bad for us. What is artistic about a dystopia that is already everyday life for marginalized groups? If they wanted to try to shape the world 'for the greater good' as you say, then why haven't they talked about these issues, addressed them head on and at least have a discourse?

It's because they don't want to. We're flavor, an ingredient they want to throw into their world solely to spice it up. That's not a fair treatment of trans people by CDPR, and it has nothing to do with the setting in game.

Even if they did join to be ignorant, I'll take this opportunity to hammer that home a bit more.
 
OP
OP
Kyuuji

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,046


Opinions on CDPR having the future of pop trans artist Sophie in the game?

Did you have an opinion on it, or the topic?

Comes off mildly like you're throwing a trans woman doing a business deal with CDPR at us, in order to make a point. I'm glad she's getting the exposure, just not sure what bearing it has on CDPR's history of mocking and fetishising trans people?
 
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sph3re

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
8,399
I'm 100% for trans rights, etc. and I don't have an issue with anything CDPR has done personally.
Apropos of nothing, especially given this person is banned, but if you're 100% for _____ rights and you aren't listening to _____ people, you aren't 100% for _____ rights

Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk ERAmble
 

zaxil456

Member
Aug 4, 2020
1,562


Opinions on CDPR having the future of pop trans artist Sophie in the game?


Just saw that. Wow, that's something. Do you all think SOPHIE's aware of their transphobia? As a fan of hers, I'm actually kinda shocked.

Definitely seems like CDPR trying to cover themselves. "No, see!? We can't be transphobic with a trans artist on the soundtrack."
 

yalk_dx

Member
Nov 3, 2020
1,346
Just saw that. Wow, that's something. Do you all think SOPHIE's aware of their transphobia? As a fan of hers, I'm actually kinda shocked.

Definitely seems like CDPR trying to cover themselves. "No, see!? We can't be transphobic with a trans artist on the soundtrack."
i'm sure they're aware. i also think artists that are approached to provide original music for a game soundtrack often aren't willing to do so if they feel they're being tokenized, but for some the money and exposure is enough. i would hope that the latter isn't the case here.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
yeah this is pretty close to how i feel about it too. i understand the mods are in a complicated balancing act with this entire situation and i haven't been here enough to be familiar enough with the culture here to really have anything to add, so i don't want to start something on that front. (this is a reply both to you and to your quoted post together)

but as a trans person the thing with this entire situation for me is that while yes, education is good, and i'm grateful to the people who've explained so so much in these threads, i feel like that's a different thing than the much bigger concern of whether trans people feel respected around discussion of this game or whether they have to constantly feel like their personhood is a less important topic than Fun Videogame Discussion. i'm not sure how to word it.

like, obviously i'm not going to go out and start fights with anyone who decides to play this, but it's not like i can just sit there and watch a bunch of people ignore the issues with it and enjoy it without feeling hurt, you know.
If mods aren't going to ban it..maybe start ignoring the threads on it? I've started doing that for certain topics cause it wasn't healthy for me to look at it. I ignoring problems won't make them go away, but sometimes it can help.
 

ParmeSean

Member
May 14, 2018
856
Did you have an opinion on it, or the topic?

Comes off mildly like you're throwing a trans woman doing a business deal with CDPR at us, in order to make a point. I'm glad she's getting the exposure, just not sure what bearing it has on CDPR's history of mocking and fetishising trans people?
I dont really care for CDPR games so i wasnt gonna get it from the get go, i am excited about Sophie getting new music out its a shame its in this way

Also stream Oil of every pearls Un-Insides
 

Hakunon

Member
Oct 11, 2018
311
Grimes and SOPHIE associating with the game makes me sad but I can't fault them because you really need to pay attention to CDPR's pre-release shenanigans to understand the issue outside of the thread. It would be a power move to openly dissociate with the game if the actual content is even worse but I don't want to think about the post-release discourse because the arguments of the "justified by the setting" crowd will get even worse.
 

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,642
Hamburg, Germany
So I've had this post written-out in my mind for a while now, and I figured that I should post my thoughts on the "ban the game" discussion here.

As someone who's been following sites like GAF and ERA for almost a decade, I feel as if I know the general behavior of the members to know exactly what would happen should a ban on CDPR content happen.

I'm sorry to say this, but a ban on CDPR content will most likely do way more harm than it will good here. Before you respond to this post, I ask that you please hear me out on this.

A look at what Cyberpunk as a whole is should be had. That is to say, it's currently the most anticipated game of the generation. Not just on ERA, but across the entire gaming spectrum.

It having transphobic content is undeniable.

So why not ban it? Well, imagine the reaction for yourselves. Don't think about how you want people to react to such a ban, but think about how you know people will act.

While you'll have many of the LGBT community here praising the admins and mods for their bravery, that praise will undoubtedly be overtaken by the swarm of angry posters bashing the decision. The thread will have a massive wave of bans, with the overall message that people will take from the decision being a stigma of condemnation for anyone buying the game, despite what any message from the mods about it says.

If your first reaction to that is "Good, fuck those people.", think about what a reaction like that does for a moment. Bigoted gamers leaving the site is a good thing, yes. But with Cyberpunk being such a hotly anticipated title it cannot be assumed that everyone looking forward to the game has bigoted views. But with all the discussion related to the ban on CDPR content being completely overtaken by people screaming: "THE MODS SAID THAT EVERYONE WHO PLAYS CYBERPUNK IS A TRANSPHOBIC BIGOT!!!!1!", it won't be long before people simply leave the forum en masse to discuss the game elsewhere.

Of course it probably wouldn't be as big of an exodus as the GAF to ERA transition was, but it will certainly be a big loss of posters nonetheless. Said posters will move on to subreddits and Discord groups to talk about the game there. I think it goes without saying that subreddits and Discord groups dedicated to the game aren't exactly going to be as strictly moderated like ResetERA is, since said areas will be places most likely dedicated to the game completely.

What happens from there on is anybody's guess, but what's almost guaranteed is them not getting the kind of awareness of these issues there as they would here. If you want more awareness, you don't want the snowball effect of lots of people leaving the forum all at once.

Another thing that should be looked at is ResetERA's status as an online forum. How much influence does ResetERA have within the gaming community? Nowhere near as much as the old place used to have, I'd say. NeoGAF was mentioned at E3 before, it was name-dropped in Sunset Overdrive, and let's not forget that one time the "I'm an expert!" phrase was put into Persona 4's localization.

You can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that ResetERA has anything close to that kind of reach. Jim Sterling doesn't even post here, and he's one of the more vocal people about issues like these.

The point being, ResetERA is not a popular forum. Online forums in general have by and large been replaced by subreddits and Discord groups. ResetERA is pretty much the only one to my knowledge that hasn't been overtaken by bigots and right-wing trolls. If you want awareness to the issues regarding CDPR's transphobia, will an action that causes a not-insignificant part of ResetERA's userbase to leave the forum truly be the best course of action? Do you want people to learn and be vocal about the issues or do you just want them to move all discussion of the game elsewhere and not bother with it at all? Banning CDPR content from ResetERA won't outright kill the site, but it will definitely push the already rolling snowball of ResetERA's irrelevance further down the hill, making less and less people aware of these issues.

I can't see that being worth it. It may come off as a victory to you, but it will only be a short-term one, as it won't have much of an effect beyond maybe an article or two.

This is why I agree with the mods decision of locking the OT on its release date. This action alone will force people to at least turn their heads towards these issues. Banning it is just overkill. Banning Cyberpunk discussion is about as useful as setting up a blockade at a local McDonalds to stop people from eating meat. Like it or not, there are other McDonalds for people to go to and the most you'll accomplish with that are just a few screaming matches and being confrontational with strangers.

You may respond to that by saying that we SHOULD be confrontational, but the overall point that I'm trying to bring across here is that it just doesn't work.

Being confrontational with anybody, especially on the internet, never works. Even if the person being confronted is 100% wrong. Any time someone is angrily confronted by someone else online immediately triggers a defense mechanism within themselves that causes them to swell their egos up to say that they shouldn't be confronted, with all facts and logic being thrown out the window in the process.

If you do an action that is the equivalent of a confrontation to a mob of people excited to play a highly anticipated game, it won't lead to anything but frustration, personal attacks, harassment, and an overall lack of progress on this issue as a whole.

So what's the solution? Well, I don't have that answer. As I said, I agree with the decision the mods made for locking the OT on Cyberpunk 2077's release date. It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. The only thing left for me to say here is well, I'm sorry for all the treatment you all must get here from others on a regular basis, and I hope on Cyberpunk's release day that this thread gets more attention.
I don't agree, to be honest. IF there would be a ban on the game, plus an explanation on why, I don't think there will be a mass leave of gamers who couldn't deal without discussion on one single game. Well, maybe one or two of the ones who did literally nothing but during the last years lol.
You'd have a bunch of people throwing a tantrum, but I'm 100% sure the majority of people will understand why. Not saying they'd agree, but they'd understand.

And even if this happens, it still leaves the question: If catering to say one thousand CP2077 players who don't take issue with CDPRs stance and would otherwise leave the site means acknowledging and being fine with 10 people of minority, who believed this is one of the single remaining trans safe spaces in the videogame world, would leave instead, is it worth it?

edit to hopefully fix my grammar
 

Stone Cold

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,466
I'm just wondering what the right steps forward would be for the company as a whole, I feel like contributing to and supporting trans/lgbt causes would be a start, but this is a situation that calls for so much more than that
 

xpownz

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Feb 13, 2020
2,161
Are there any trans men here? I read through the entire thread to understand the matter and the opinions but, correct me if Im wrong, it seems all transwomen sided here? I'd like to understand views and opinions from all sides
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,352
Devil's advocate: this is a gaming board that relies on Ads, driving away traffic for the most anticipated game isn't a smart move.
Business is business.
It's interesting how "we are just doing business!" is the "we were just following orders!" of the 21st century. Real life is more cyberpunk than this game. All bow down to our corporate overlords, and praise the almighty dollar!

I'm glad this thread got stickied. The world needs all the good it can get right now.

Edit: I'd also just like to thank Kyuuji for not only making this thread, but sticking with it. I'm sure it's a chore at times, but I've found it informative and motivating.
 

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
I'm just wondering what the right steps forward would be for the company as a whole, I feel like contributing to and supporting trans/lgbt causes would be a start, but this is a situation that calls for so much more than that
Hire trans people for both leadership and lower positions, sensitivity readers, and make sure all employees go through a "diversity training," highlighting the importance of these issues both internally and to their customers.

Then again, that feels like an unachievable dream with CDPR.
 

SimonM7

Member
Oct 27, 2017
359
Sweden
Just saw that. Wow, that's something. Do you all think SOPHIE's aware of their transphobia? As a fan of hers, I'm actually kinda shocked.

Is anyone? Has there been any concerted effort to make people aware of this outside this forum? And I don't mean the occasional ignored Polygon article. I mean proper reaching out to these people who seem extremely unlikely to want to be associated with this sort of behaviour? I've seen some extremely light and vague pecking in comments on twitter, but it's been completely ignored. Unclear whether it's because of wilful ignorance or "normal noise filter".

The OT here is extremely well put together and super informative, and if someone with clout were to look at it, maybe that would make a dent.
 

Grampasso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18
This game was on my radar until they announced the lack of third person view, so quite a while ago. I was never a fan of CDPR to begin with (I bought the Witcher games on sale and I was quite disappointed by all of them, the gameplay is so dull even in the 3rd).

I didn't follow all the escalation about the matter at hand with CP2077 and like many others I actually thought at first they were trying to make justice to the Transgender scene, while it appears to be the exact opposite. Forgive me for being shortsighted, it's not easy when, by luck, you don't appear to be in a minority and it's really difficult to view things in a different perspective unless you have someone near you being directly involved in it. I guess that makes me part of the problem, but nonetheless I want to express my total support to the cause. It may not be a big deal for me since I wasn't going to buy the game anyway, but I think it's a start.
I've not been very active on the forum at all despite being here since the split, but I thought this was the right occasion to express my sympathy and make a stand.
Keep on fighting!

An uneducated WCM
 

paranoodle

Member
Nov 18, 2019
100
switzerland
If mods aren't going to ban it..maybe start ignoring the threads on it? I've started doing that for certain topics cause it wasn't healthy for me to look at it. I ignoring problems won't make them go away, but sometimes it can help.
yeah that's what i've been doing. it's definitely better than if i hadn't, but i unfortunately have enough object permanence to know they're still happening (a lot) and that's the bit that still feels uncomfortable.

Are there any trans men here? I read through the entire thread to understand the matter and the opinions but, correct me if Im wrong, it seems all transwomen sided here? I'd like to understand views and opinions from all sides
the reason there's been a lot of trans women chiming in here is because CDPR's harm has been overwhelmingly aimed at trans women (outside things like the gendering on character creation, which is harmful to everyone), which means that theirs are the opinions that matters here. it's not up to trans men to decide whether something is harmful to trans women or not.

but also hi i'm not a trans woman (non-binary person here) and i stand behind OP 100% because CDPR are generally transphobes and specifically transmisogynists on top of that.
 

Hakunon

Member
Oct 11, 2018
311
Are there any trans men here? I read through the entire thread to understand the matter and the opinions but, correct me if Im wrong, it seems all transwomen sided here? I'd like to understand views and opinions from all sides

I believe only "Chromanticure" and the other ad strictly apply to trans women while the rest affects all trans people, especially the voice thing that is in the game. I don't think it's right to separate the issue into trans men/women/non-binary, like JKR's rhetoric could be directed at trans women for the most part but it still affects trans men by implying that they are not "real" men. I doubt transphobes could be against trans women and benevolent towards trans men at the same time.
 

Stove

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,078
Thank you for this thread. I have no interest in purchasing the game and will direct my friends to this thread so they are at least aware of CDPR's transphobia.

Trans Rights are Human Rights.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,543
I really wish we didn't need to have an individual thread for every single fucking drip-feed marketing piece CDPR puts out about their game. Like why can't we just consolidate all the marketing into one thread, since that's all it is - advertising.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,408
all the gushing media impressions in the Night City Wire thread don't give me much hope for widespread meaningful criticism of the game's politics come release
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,585
It's especially frustrating with a company like CDPR that seems to feel the need to put out a new five-second preview every three or four days just to keep their game in the news cycle.

Why normally doing a new thread for each trailer wouldn't bother me, it feels like the same group of people are the ones making the threads as if they were marketers for CDPR. They have Cyberpunk avatars and post almost exclusively within Cyberpunk threads. I can understand why people are excited for the game but some people are borderline doing free promotion on CDPR behalf.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,543
Why normally doing a new thread for each trailer wouldn't bother me, it feels like the same group of people are the ones making the threads as if they were marketers for CDPR. They have Cyberpunk avatars and post almost exclusively within Cyberpunk threads. I can understand why people are excited for the game but some people are borderline doing free promotion on CDPR behalf.

Yeah. I don't want to call out particular posters by name or anything but it's elementally frustrating to me that we have moratoriums on individual threads about other problematic content creators, yet somehow CDPR, despite basically being a giant transphobia floodlight, is still allowed to get individual hype threads for every single piece of marketing fluff they put out.
 

Kyrona

Member
Jul 9, 2020
509
As a reminder, tomorrow is the Transgender Day of Remembrance. A day to acknowledge those among us in the community who have died from acts of violence and transphobia.

I sincerely hope that inane hype threads will be addressed quickly, especially tomorrow.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Yeah. I don't want to call out particular posters by name or anything but it's elementally frustrating to me that we have moratoriums on individual threads about other problematic content creators, yet somehow CDPR, despite basically being a giant transphobia floodlight, is still allowed to get individual hype threads for every single piece of marketing fluff they put out.
I thought the mods were combining the threads? Or am I misunderstanding the issue and is it the same posters making new threads for stuff despite knowing the mods will combine it to the big one?
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,543
I thought the mods were combining the threads? Or am I misunderstanding the issue and is it the same posters making new threads for stuff despite knowing the mods will combine it to the big one?

I believe that was the intention at least? I keep seeing individual hype threads getting posted, though. At least right now there's just the ONE on the front page...