Yeah there have still been plenty of bad defenders, and I'm sure a lot of them are lurking until more trailers get released.
We'll find out for sure when we get closer to the game's release, I guess.
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CDPR is a transphobic company. It's time we stop making excuses for them.
- Thread starter Kyuuji
- Start date
Yeah there have still been plenty of bad defenders, and I'm sure a lot of them are lurking until more trailers get released.
We'll find out for sure when we get closer to the game's release, I guess.
Sincerely convinced those threads are like an "unofficial" marketing arm. They can't be genuine hype threads. The fact that there's 5 OTs about CP77 that boil down to circlejerking over the new advertisements for the game completely undermines the "we hear you" claims from the mods here. Either crack down on the bloat by making it stick to one thread or don't even bother pretending to give a damn. Smash is only at 19 despite being out for two years, this is absurd.
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I completely agree, we don't need five OT's prerelease for new updates on the game. Just have one prerelease thread and thread mark it when new updates come.
There isn't something that is being addressed but I really feel needs too.
The OT for Cyberpunk is more toxic outwardly than people are giving it credit for and I don't even mean the person who is making the stories or whatever.
It proudly broadcasts that it has Media impressions and it been said over and over again how the Media is glowing about it, it is actively drawing people in and could be a source of FOMO...all these press out let's and media are in here and blowing up? Well I need to see what they are saying.
Not saying anything can be done, but the unspoken validity and support is already there because Media is actively taking part in the OT and encouraging the behavior.
The OT for Cyberpunk is more toxic outwardly than people are giving it credit for and I don't even mean the person who is making the stories or whatever.
It proudly broadcasts that it has Media impressions and it been said over and over again how the Media is glowing about it, it is actively drawing people in and could be a source of FOMO...all these press out let's and media are in here and blowing up? Well I need to see what they are saying.
Not saying anything can be done, but the unspoken validity and support is already there because Media is actively taking part in the OT and encouraging the behavior.
Yeah the tons of Cyberpunk threads really makes clear how because the game is so big people don't really care. I've struggled with it myself since I've had the game pre-ordered for a long time and it's been my most anticipated game since it's announcement. Personally I'm having to decide to cancel it now or not. Which I'm sure a lot of people would think I need to cancel now for sure, and that I shouldn't support them by buying it. Honestly it is something I'm struggling with, not really a way I can get it used on pc but I could wait until later when it gets cheap. At this point really typing it out it seems more clear I probably should cancel it.
But at the very least I'm not getting hyped over every drip fed news drop and really i just have a bad taste in my mouth when I read or hear the title of the game due to the studios clear trans hate or dismissal of that group of people. I can't imagine how sick it would make me feel if I was in that group of people myself. I am already associating the game with hate in my head every time I hear it. It kills my whole positive feeling to the game even though I know it's a game I would love the mechanics of and playing it.
No other games I can think of have so many OTs for their marketing every time their marketing machine spins up.
But at the very least I'm not getting hyped over every drip fed news drop and really i just have a bad taste in my mouth when I read or hear the title of the game due to the studios clear trans hate or dismissal of that group of people. I can't imagine how sick it would make me feel if I was in that group of people myself. I am already associating the game with hate in my head every time I hear it. It kills my whole positive feeling to the game even though I know it's a game I would love the mechanics of and playing it.
No other games I can think of have so many OTs for their marketing every time their marketing machine spins up.
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I don't think even Smash got this many pre-release threads. Maybe just the general hype and character reveals, but even so.
It's so hypocritical to promote Cyberpunk this much while having the Trans logo at the same time.
Edit: Okay my brain blanked and didn't notice the logo is gone now. But this thread is still stickied (good).
It's so hypocritical to promote Cyberpunk this much while having the Trans logo at the same time.
Edit: Okay my brain blanked and didn't notice the logo is gone now. But this thread is still stickied (good).
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Way back at the old place we used to have hype threads for a game's prerelease thread. Can't remember why it stopped.
I mean yes, maybe, but if you really look at it I'm pretty sure it's the same 1-2 people creating these threads on every bit of news without fail for cyberpunk. And if you check the profiles of those people, it'S literally all they do.
I'm not trying to paint people as astroturfers on purpose, I don't really think they are, but with CP it does feel really weird at times. No actual offense on the thread makers, of course, only an observation you can't really miss.
What I'm trying to say I guess is that yes, we could easily do with fewer threads and one overall hype topic, given that there's apparently no way around it.
What makes me sad is that we don't see acknowledgment of any kind from the mods or admins.
They could tell us if they're discussing these options internally, if they're keeping their decision, if they're still looking for more feedback, or anything else. I hope they give us some kind of feedback soon.
They could tell us if they're discussing these options internally, if they're keeping their decision, if they're still looking for more feedback, or anything else. I hope they give us some kind of feedback soon.
We have.
They've already made clear the decision is that they support us, and will close it for the day but they will NOT ban CDPR/Cyberpunk/Harry Potter.
I don't think we can expect them to comment much more outside of reiterating that fact. The *conversation* and letting TransPeople experience and talk about these games and issues is important issues with these series.
Yeah I just feel like we could do something better. Every new hype thread just feels like trying to ignore the issues, even if the thread makers are just genuinely hyped for the game. That 24 hour thread ban seems useless especially because I believe most people will be playing it at that time anyway and not even ready to talk a lot about it until a day later at the least so I doubt it will be noticed that much.
I would feel better about it if the OT itself was presented with the transphobic issues presented front and center in the OP or even thread title? Idk. At least so that it doesn't seem like hiding it for hype sake. That would be best in my mind to have the official thread really call it out itself and condemn CDPR for how they've handled all of it.
^Or some longer bans on threads like what someone mentioned above. If the game needs to be discussed I feel like it needs to be discussed with that side of it at the forefront because it is very much a part of the product. Since CDPR has done nothing to change things or admit doing anything wrong.
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Yeah, I remember that decision. I meant that I was hoping they'd talk here about the ineffective results of the one-day ban that happened yesterday and if that changes anything. It was a good example of what will happen during launch.
I'm going to be frank here.
This Mod team are all smart, they knew how this would go just as they know how launch will go and the majority will continue to ignore us if not be out right hostel to us. This was a band aid, they know it. We know it. The people that don't fucking care or hate us know it.
Unless this game goes as far as to actually put in hate crimes that are on the nose and forced storyline stuff, nothing is going to be done or said that is beyond reformatting what was originally said.
I haven't checked any of those redundant hype threads, but couldn't the mods put disclaimers at the top of every page (of that thread and every CP2077 thread that opens from now on) that outline the transphobic bullshit CDPR keeps pulling? I feel like that's the absolute least they can do.
You're right. I guess I was hoping for more iteration based on all the suggestions that folx have been recommending in this thread.
Since the comments from CDPR's PR people on Twitter went through the news cycle a couple of times, nothing regarding the whole issue has come up that's big enough to really make people notice. There hasn't been another singular controversial event to make the hype machine stop and take notice.
My guess is there might be some think pieces in the weeks and even years after the game's release analyzing how CP77 depicts different groups of people, including trans people.
My guess is there might be some think pieces in the weeks and even years after the game's release analyzing how CP77 depicts different groups of people, including trans people.
Part of me wants to believe some journalists are just waiting for the game to come out so they can see the game for themselves and make a judgement based on how the game deals with these things, because that at least means their arguments are backed by the actual content of the game.
But the more realistic part of me also does not hold much respect for most of these journalists to actually believe they will do anything but sing praise for the game and get clicks.
Even if the game is the greatest handling of Transgender life and people though, it doesn't change the horrible marketing or how they are willing to present/fetishize us on the lead up.
The fact that we have to have it be but of the marketing and have to hit some arbitrary *this* is beyond the limit of being okay is already way past bullshit.
Honestly, if the issue was only marketing and they were actually making an effort to portray trans life in a respectful matter, they'd have a different marketing team by now.
That team is not running loose.
That team is not running loose.
Tangentially-related, but you do have to wonder how the game is indeed gonna handle the transhumanism stuff. It's already confirmed to play heavily into the main quest based on one of the recent previews I read (none of the previews I've read seem to mention anything about how CP77 handles trans people, one previewer I read tried to play a trans-male V but only commented that the sex scene animations might've been made in a way that the same ones fit for all versions of V).
That reminds me of an important but oft-overlooked aspect of the character of Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell -- every version of the story (except the Hollywood movie) at the very least implies that Kusanagi may or may not have been assigned male at birth and moved to a female body later in life, and every version deals with this in its own way. Obviously Kusanagi's detachment from her own body is a central theme of GitS.
A central conflict of the game seems to be that the ghost of Johnny -- Keanu Reeve's character, is actually trying to take over V's body completely. Maybe that's an opportunity to raise some of these issues, especially if you're trying to play a non-cis-male V.
That reminds me of an important but oft-overlooked aspect of the character of Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell -- every version of the story (except the Hollywood movie) at the very least implies that Kusanagi may or may not have been assigned male at birth and moved to a female body later in life, and every version deals with this in its own way. Obviously Kusanagi's detachment from her own body is a central theme of GitS.
What's worse are those who have been through this song and dance before and are terrified to highlight the game's social issues and go against the grain because of previous backlash, or have since been fired because the company was too cowardly to do anything and instead gave in to the hate mob. Games media has made, and is going to make, it even harder for anyone to speak up on the game and CDPR's issues.
From one of the (million) excerpts I've seen on twitter, I believe "body purity" was one of the themes brought up, so I'm not expecting the game to handle it well.
Forgot to respond to this, but it's probably just best to hope at least one trans person gets to review the game.
Something I find incredibly frustrating is that it seems people have to ignore the issue if they don't totally agree that CDPR is 100% transphobic. It's become very black and white: you either support Trans Era and view the game and the company as every bit as bad as JKR, or you keep your head down and your mouth shut and only talk about the game in the most shallow terms, because bringing up its issues and trying to unpack them from a less certain position will get you banned for "dismissing concerns about transphobia".
Arithmetician is a perfect example. They didn't seem to be dismissing any concerns, they seemed to be trying to understand those concerns, and even when they proved they weren't entering the discussion in bad faith, they merely had their ban reduced. The message is "keep it light and shut your mouth, or denounce the game".
Trans Era is not responsible for educating people, but I personally feel there needs to be room for discussion, so that people who aren't totally convinced by the OP of this thread can unpack and break down these issues together without fear of getting banned. That's how people's minds get changed, as we've seen in this thread already. This thread might not be the best place for it, since it's about supporting folks who are hurt by the game, and the OT probably isn't a good place for it either, because those who just want to keep it light will drown out discourse about this topic. But I don't think the current policy is the best way to deal with this situation, or advocate for trans people, or understand how different people relate to the game and CDPR.
I wholeheartedly believe that there are people who appear to be ignoring the concerns of Trans Era and are excited to play the game, who still believe trans men are men and trans women are women, but who can't express their feelings about the problematic aspects of the game and dissect each other's interpretations because they know they'll get banned if they say, for example, that they don't think gender-bending, sexually provocative, sleazy, objectifying imagery is the same thing as denial of personhood or hate, and that they aren't ready to denounce CDPR as transphobic yet.
It would be awesome if a mod could weigh in on this and explain the way in which these debates could occur, or if they're not welcome on Era at all, as appears to be the case.
To come into a thread, say you don't have the background to get a proper read on the situation, and come up with your own reading of the situation that is counter to the people who do have the background's reads and then ignore everyone telling you that you are wrong and why you are wrong is textbook dismissal. You are confusing wordiness and tone with good faith.
People completely ignoring everything aren't "keeping their heads down", they just don't want to acknowledge it. There's been enough talk about CDPR's transphobia, anyone ignoring it is intentionally dodging it. There has been just about ZERO change in discussion from before and after the day ban in most threads, not even a single "thank you" or "wait what's going on?". I thought there would be at least some people getting pissy about it or a small uproar about "mods are being forum nazis", but there's been just about nothing.
There's a large difference between someone who has zero history of support making excuses to justify that they're not a bad person for buying the game, versus someone who is still getting the game but is participating in these discussions and has acknowledged the game's transphobia. Discussion isn't dismissing people's concerns and having no background on the topic while arguing with people telling you that you're wrong that they're the ones looking at it wrong, when they're the ones being targeted and hurt by it.
People aren't "unable to have a discussion unless they're unequivocally against CDPR and Cyberpunk in every way without getting banned", people are intentionally looking away while they hype the game up because they don't want to deal with questioning their moral compass.
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Fair enough - I thought he came in with an outlandish idea that he believed was something people had missed, citing the source of his opinion; then was swiftly told why he was wrong, and/or his reading was actually unrelated to the problems with the content. I didn't think he ignored the responses, I think he tried to engage with them, because after attempting to defend his position, he realised he was wrong. I don't think that's ignoring the issue, I think it's being acutely aware of a serious accusation leveled at a piece of media, and trying to figure it out. He started unable to understand the problem, then the replies brought it into focus; so his opinion changed and he apologized. Others have come into this thread to say they came around as well; we just didn't see their thought process explored in posts.
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As my first post in this thread that I've followed constantly, I agree. Even as someone who may identify as trans I'm far too {insert user name} to ever talk about it. Only reason I'm even posting is I've drank a bit too much at this point and shouldn't have refreshed the thread that I've just had open in a tab for weeks.
Of course it's very easy for me to not care since I wasn't planning on buying the game at launch anyway. I have the privilege of wanting to wait a while after launch to get the full game so by then there will be enough other info of actual in game content to decide if I should get it.
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To expand on that note of agreement, the only thing talking about the issues of the game and it's marketing if you still plan on getting the game or are looking forward to it can do is get you banned so it is no surprise to me that no one in any of the hype threads, especially those with Cyberpunk avatars, would ever talk about these facts.
At this point I just hope the game is bad so I have no reason to even care.
This can't be understated. It seems like this site wants to have it both ways, much like CDPR.
We obviously need 20 different night wire threads or whatever the fuck those are /s
People will just keep ignoring this when it's mentioned in the OT and any hype thread as they keep on doing now. Not unexpected, but just reminds me how people just don't give a shit for the most part.
He came in with an outlandish idea that tried to minimize the feelings of almost every member of the trans community that's entered this thread. Based on his initial posts, a short-term ban was definitely warranted as it reeked of bad-faith arguments. That ban likely came before he posted his apology, hence the lowering of the initial penalty when the mods noticed that. It still doesn't make his original posts not a violation of Era's ToS which means that some sort of ban was, IMO, still an acceptable outcome.
Feel free to point to anyone else that got banned for similar things in this thread, or in other threads, and I'll look them over and see if I also have a change of heart after sleeping on it.
Arithmetician literally said the ad was just showing the effect of a drink (give someone a penis, apparently), which had zero - absolutely zero - evidence or any word from developers. That's not even how body modification works in Cyberpunk. They're cybernetic, they're a implants. You don't drink something a grow a limb.
If reading their argument you can't draw the conclusion that they were either trolling or completely dismissive, then I don't know what to tell you.
If reading their argument you can't draw the conclusion that they were either trolling or completely dismissive, then I don't know what to tell you.
I'm assuming since this post wasn't what got you banned it's OK to feel this way so I'm just going to quote it. Took the words right out of my mouth. Have been thinking this for sometime but didn't want to be overly negative
As others have said they came into the thread with an outlandish idea based on nothing, which at best could be understood as dismissive at worst as outright trolling. They had no change of heart or slow coming round over multiple posts it wasn't until the final post where they admirably admitted they were wrong. A ban based on those initial posts was more than appropriate, and personally a reduction based on the apology which was freely given prior to to the ban was equally appropriate.
I assume you meant that the apology was given before the ban, hence the reduction. :D
Certainly they were still here when I replied to the apology yesterday, and it seemed to be have given in good faith without earlier replies from Mods etc which may have prompted a less than genuine attempt in an attempt to save face.
Aprospos such things, I think it would be a nice addition to the forum if in the ban reason text we could also see original duration and minimised duration alongside a reason i.e. "4 week ban reduced to 2 week based on this post" Kind of thing. Redcrayon is that possible do you know?
Seeing the Nintendo thread with the Trans Rights header sandwiched between 3 Cyberpunk threads feels like the perfect summary of the situation.
And it's not a good one
And it's not a good one
Honestly, a rebellious part of me would love to spoil this game for as many people as possible. Spoilers don't seem to have a deleterious effect on sales though, so there wouldn't be much point to it outside of my own sick satisfaction.
I'm probably just being silly.
I'm probably just being silly.
The way I've seen some people practically salivating over copies going out early and seeing the pre-patch version while completely ignoring the transphobia at every turn honestly feels sickening. I was hoping people would at least pay attention when their threads got locked...but they continued on like literally nothing happened.
For a second, I had similar thoughts too, but it's probably not a productive idea, unfortunately.
Aye, would probably just cause a bunch of antagonism with no benefit.
Yeah, that really stood out on the last dev diary thing they put out. Admins locked it, unlocked it, then literally there was no acknowledgement from any frequent posters in that thread. It's a day of inconvenience more than anything else.
To be fair, there was never any acknowledgement about the transphobia from the person who usually creates those threads. So it's no surprise at all.
I don't want to throw claims of "astroturfing" around with gay abandon, but at which point does one consider the two separate?
It feels like right now like sanctified astroturfing, and even if that isnt the case, the effect is still the same :(
Its still just "a game" what makes CDPR special?
It feels like right now like sanctified astroturfing, and even if that isnt the case, the effect is still the same :(
Its still just "a game" what makes CDPR special?
Just wanted to share this (there's links in the thread). As someone that was holding out hope that depiction in game would be better than the marketing was letting on, I'm disappointed to hear this.
I don't think that's completely fair. While I can't say I've seen him say he is bothered by any of it himself, he has posted things like this a few times:
So he at least understands that it bothers people and is trying to stay within the board's guidelines. I don't think it's particularly helpful to start singling out board members because of your issues with CDPR.
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Which reveals many of those defenses as what they were all along: "but what about me."
I mean I understand and agree its just... I dunno even "ignoring" it is still offensive, would we find it acceptable to "ignore" an actively racist or homophobic developer. Whether we can Ignore it or not isn't the case, it should be that we can all agree to separate ourselves from the hype cycle of a game enough to not be "signal boosting" it quite so much.
To be clear i don't wish to single any individual out, its just being able to ignore something is very much a privilege some people can't ignore it.
"Staying with the boards guidelines" is not really so difficult, it would be nice, I guess, for people to not be so literal with the rules and understand why and be prepared to say "NO!".
I don't think we should force him to participate or anything. I also think it's disappointing that the guy who will be responsible for the game's OT isn't participating. He quoted me once when I was expressing my issue with how a Latino character was portrayed, but that was it. From the times I checked his threads, he never seemed to engage with people expressing concerns.
Which is his choice. I don't want to seem like I'm attacking him. I'm just disappointed, as he's not just any member when it comes to Cyberpunk 2077.
Adding to the conversation there's no easy way to convince people to understand our point of view. And with many it's an uphill battle to climb. It's important to inform people of this issue moreso than convincing them that the game is bad. If they decide to continue with the game that's on them and it sucks.
That's not to say it's futile, it is in fact very beneficial since it spreads faster. Those hype threads will at least be condensed into one megathread at launch so it'll be easier to contain the information and also draw attention to this thread. It's better to redirect our energies towards trying to convince as many people as possible instead of focusing on these cyberpunk threads. Those people probably either don't care, already know, or are being willfully oblivious. So signal boost the hell out of this thread and add more information as much as possible.
That's not to say it's futile, it is in fact very beneficial since it spreads faster. Those hype threads will at least be condensed into one megathread at launch so it'll be easier to contain the information and also draw attention to this thread. It's better to redirect our energies towards trying to convince as many people as possible instead of focusing on these cyberpunk threads. Those people probably either don't care, already know, or are being willfully oblivious. So signal boost the hell out of this thread and add more information as much as possible.