Did you know it was LucasArts that made the decision to change Kotor 2 release date? The game was originally to be released 2005 but it was changed to December 2004 forcing Obsidian to finish the game in a short time frame of 14 to 16 months. Blame the publisher not the developer.
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Chris Avellone alledges Obsidian almost silenced and forced him to never work on RPGs again
- Thread starter Strikerrr
- Start date
FWIW, they did briefly work with Bethesda on Prey 2 pre-Arkane so the aftermath of New Vegas couldn't have been that bad.
Of course it's neither.
Though if you want to enjoy your time on the Codex, it helps immensely if you think calling people "f******s* and using emoticons depicting greedy jews is imperative for a sensible discussion.
It also helps if you think that everybody you lable as feminist, globalist or (much worse) someone who likes romance options in RPGS are the scum of the earth.
It's also a great idea to believe that gamergate is a valiant effort to fight in the defense of video games against normies, feminazis and people who like romance options in RPGs.
It's also helpful if you see the gaming world as a small island of sensible defenders (with yourself on it) battling against the darkness of idiocy and "decline" (all other people and all other webpages and 99% of all developers and publishers).
But other than that, it is totally neutral and has no political leaning
The site itself, and by that I mean the ownership and moderation team, doesn't seem to have a particular political leaning. I've been a member since 2009 and no-one has ever sanctioned me for my left-leaning or right-leaning opinions. You are describing the part of the userbase that is indeed part of the alt-right. The site is effectively a free-for-all, you either have to get used to everyone being able to say anything, even vile shit, or start mass-ignoring people. For many people it might not be worth it but I've had a lot of fantastic discussions over the years about RPGs with people who really know their shit.
Anyway, this discussion is not really on topic so shoot me a PM if you want to discuss this.
It definitely isn't the worst place on the Internet like people try to make it (It isn't, let say, /pol/). I mean, I post there and I'm definitely not alt right lol. There are also a lot of good posters which is why I don't like to group everyone together.
But the Codex's reputation is 100% deserved, you can literally read stuff like "We need another holocaust" in a RPG discussion and no one will bat an eye. You had people genuinely upset at the mere existence of homosexual NPCs in Original Sin 2 and people's beliefs tend to ster discussions in certain directions (Discussing Siege for example was pretty much impossible for a long while, because "politics" had completely overtaken the threads).
So... what? The community as a whole (and this does not mean every individual member) has a very clear ideological orientation. If half the patrons at a bar were wearing KKK robes, would you tell a non-white person that anyone can drink there, they just have to deal with the shitty customers themselves?
But anyway, yes this is off-topic.
Did you get banned from the forum? Cause you sure sound like it.
Without wanting to go OT, you know why this whole thing "clicked" with me, and I keep saying labour and business disputes are not usually as clear-cut as described?
Earlier on this thread I was even "accused" of siding with Obsidian, because of my appreciation of their games. But that's not really it.
I basically have to deal with crap like this day in or day out. I am a co-owner of an accounting firm. Both from experiences with my own firm, and from clients firms (in which we are involved, because we process their wages and fiscal obligations), labour disputes, or owners/shareholders disputes are a mess. I can tell you I keep hearing stories such as the one Chris is telling (as an employee), and usually what's missing from the story is people not showing up, people abusing co-workers and/or management, people not working, and so on. Do companies sometimes screw up their employees? Sure. But people forget the opposite happens, and it's much more frequent than you may believe. Much, much more. But yet, people always side with the employee.
I had people coming in asking me for work. They say they were fired from their previous job without reason, without proper pay, the previous boss made them work unpaid hours, would do this, would do that, their former co-workers would abuse them, and so so. After a while, I find exactly why their previous employer fired them, because I have to do so myself. These people just don't want to work, or can't work in a team. And I'm sure they'll be going to their next job, repeating the same thing, but this time about me. Some people are just faultless, it was all their former employers fault.
One thing I was always curious about Chris: we was a co-owner of Obsidian, and an employee. Yet, he kept working, and showing up on games from outside companies. He almost appeared to have spend more time working on other games, from other companies, than his own. How did that happen? Did his fellow co-owners agree to this, especially considering they apparently wanted him to sign a non-compete clause when he left? It sounds like a very strange working agreement.
And again, since I mentioned it before, regarding that whole "de-ownered" thing, I will stop short of saying it's a load of crap, because I'm used to European legislation, and this is a US company.
I'll tell you that, to me, the whole thing does not make sense. If it was in Europe, I would tell you that was a complete fabrication, he had to accept to sell his stake in the company, agree on the price, and so on. There would be no way what he described (being "de-ownered" without choice, without payment/compensation, without a say) is true.
As for the whole "someone's wife is being paid without working", that is shady! Fraud! They are evil!
Yeah, right. This is the kind of thing that is done by pretty much every company, big or small, in order for the company and/or people involved to pay less taxes. No company, and I do mean, no company, doesn't use whatever they can, in order to pay less taxes.
Probably, you have the husband earning less than they should, and they declare the wife as earning the rest of his wages (so it doesn't reach a certain threshold that would mean paying "x" % more taxes), in order to save on taxes, for example. It's hard for me to speak in detail, without knowing the whole thing, but much of what Chris described as shady management sounds like a very twisted re-telling of things that happen in pretty much every company.
And I have no doubt some of those things ended up being in Chris (and fellow owners) benefit, while things were OK between them, since it allowed them to declare more costs, and pay less taxes. But now, since things went south, it suddenly turns shady, and he knows nothing about it.
It's one thing that is common to all of Chris claims: management did this, co-workers or project leads did this, I had no say, I did not agree, I had no choice, I earned nothing from it. If we found out exactly what happened, I doubt things were as clear-cut, and one-sided as he claims.
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How the fuck would you get banned from the Codex? By being too polite to people?
I appreciate getting the perspective of someone who actually deals with this sort of stuff in real life. And I agree very very much with he quoted part; his narrative is so wildly self-serving, self-martyrizing (is that a word?) even, it beggars belief.
Spam mostly.
Or if you make the effort and are obnoxious in a truly unique way for years.
The management usually just prefers to fuck with you by restricting your posting in some funny way, trolling you with a custom title (or every custom title at once) or the most horrid fate of all - redirecting you to the RPGWatch.
Now, I am a man of great stature, but some things are even beyond my power.
If you check the article this has been an interview ongoing since 2016. I guess it's more on the Codex fault (and maybe Avellone not thinking things through with answering questions immediately).
It hasn't made the "big news" so I don't think it will have any impact in Obsidian at all.
You realise Bethesda did work with Obsidian again after New Vegas, right? After Bethesda fucked over Human Head, Obsidian were the ones they hired to try and finish Prey 2. Square Enix also worked with them after Dungeon Siege 3 came out, on a new Deus Ex. Sure, neither project came together but it's proof there isn't some kind of ridiculous bad blood between them.
I'm more surprised people didn't know or at least assume shit was up the moment Avellone left with little more than an update on the front page of Obsidian's website.
His work or lack of on Pillars of Eternity said everything about the situation
My experience, since the internet began, is that most forums have a certain 'vibe', and that if you operate on a different 'frequency' then you're going to run into trouble regardless of the forum rules.
I know nothing about this 'codex' place, but it sounds like it fits the above definition - that you sort of have to be a specific type of person to fit in there.
Funnily enough, I'm willing to bet that this codex place does have 'rules', and that the people who enforce those rules do so 'proudly' and actually believe they're maintaining a certain standard.
I definitely think Chris should stop assaulting people, I don't care what the stretch goal promised.
Or they could have been such a dirtbag that even codex couldnt tolerate it. They are on best behavior here and shitpost elsewhere.
I haven't visited this Codex place but if people are using the n-word freely, and not being banned, I genuinely don't see how the forum can claim to have standards and rules.
If you run a site and consistently tolerate slurs and supremacy, you're not neutral.
Lmao people like you always do the "shoot me a PM" thing
No one is buying your shit, dude.
I don't give a fuck how "fantastic" your discussions have been. If you willingly participate in a website that tolerates bigotry and slurs, you're as bad as the rest of them.
Ah, the boogeyman du jour.
odds are good though
Infinitron would get banned and there would be no content.
...which doesn't attract certain individuals at all. By this argument, 4chan's /pol/ isn't right or left either!!!!!!!
Like, it was literally the biggest hotbed for certain GamerGate issues at one point. I get it, I lurk and post there once in a blue moon, but this is past willfully turning a blind eye territory and straight into delusion. There are a handful of devs and and posters who are not strictly alt-right, and the rest is just "sjw" and "cuck" spam
Some (white men) are willing to ignore all the blatant bigotry and hate on the Codex because there are people there who can talk shop about RPGs, but trying to whitewash the place is ridiculous. It is what it is.
And it leans that way cause it makes it unbearable for most people who don't lean that way. If you don't moderate against it, you allow it to take over. I used to mod a motorcycle forum that for a while the owner really wanted to allow free speech. I argued that we should at least stop the hate speech because it was chasing other people away and that I knew of at least one person personally who did leave cause of it (it was a forum for riders of Washington state and east side is really conservative). I mean we had at least one person talking how they did want homosexuals to die (though most didn't get that extreme). Eventually he did have to concede that we needed to put a reign on it cause he wanted it to stay open to everyone and it was getting pretty hostile to gay people even with some of us arguing against those people.
Sometimes if you don't moderate you are going to end up with a forum full of people who lean one way. Cause if you are feeling outnumbered by people who you really can't agree with it makes the forum unpleasant and you'll leave, leaving others like you to feel even more outnumbered. And honestly, if you really cared and didn't agree with that level of hate, you will eventually put a reign on it. As I said, the owner didn't want to censor but even he agreed it was getting too far and put a stop to it on that forum. At some point if you own or moderate the forum and you don't put a stop to extreme talk, I'd say it's pretty likely that you probably agree with it.
I mean it's the difference between posting it on something like r/gaming and r/kotakuinaction, isn't it? I don't necessarily agree that his response is tainted based on where it is currently, since the site fits his work, but it certainly could affect how he presents things.
...your response to someone listing multiple valid reasons for seeing a forum's community as being wildly misogynistic, homophobic, antisemitic, etc. is really "you're just angry cause you totally got banned from it lol"? Seriously?
What are you even implying- that it's not actually that bad? That they could only care about it being that bad if they got banned?
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Throws the baby out with the bath-water. Sure, all the rank and file programmers and script editors and animators totally deserve the game they're working on to fail because of possible senior staff and management issues.
Honestly, if what Obsidian have done/are doing offends people, raise your voices for things like unionisation of the games industry, transparent hiring/firing practices and an acceptance of things other industries regard as norms, like full job descriptions.
I don't see what's so hard to understand about Alexandros' post.
The way I interpret his point is with this question:
Does a poster actually get banned for posting liberal opinions on Codex or /pol/ ?? I do not visit either place so I don't know, but it sounds like Alexandros is saying no you do not.
Community moderation through things like dogpiling and ostracization is 100% a thing. Not getting officially banned by a moderator is nice or whatever, but you can still feel alienated by the views of the majority.
It even happens around here, sometimes. People post that they feel unwelcome because they have unpopular viewpoints. Mostly assholes posting borderline alt-right bullshit in my experience, but still.
There is zero push back to hate speech, even from the forum community. It's not a community where there you have some people spouting vile bigotry but at least an equal number of people calling them on their shit. No one speaks up.
Seriously if you haven't been to the forum, you really can't judge.
I perfectly understand you two's points.
My point is there is a technical difference, between owners/mods actually banning posters with liberal opinions, versus not. That's all.
I went to Codex once a long time ago, and I didn't feel any desire to go back. But I don't see why people can't seem to interpret Alexandros' post, lol
This is an irrelevant question that does not speak to the general atmosphere of the forum. A forum dominated by bigoted viewpoints is still dominated said viewpoints regardless of who they don't ban. Lack of moderation in itself is a bias. Apologizing for bigotry by saying you could just ignore it is a really bad response. Some people (white men) are just willing to accept hate to get their RPG talk, but that doesn't excuse the Codex's deep seated issues.
I mean, despite it all, Obsidian losing Avelone was probably a huge morale dump as he is considered one of the best writers in the biz. I'm sure that whatever happened between them it would have to be pretty irreconcilable for both of the parties to cut ties like that, so I could see that it would have to be something as serious as what he accuses for it to happen.
My honest hope though is that Avelone doesn't just continue to flit from project to project, becoming "human stretch goal" as it were. That's a disservice to his talents. Hopefully, he can find a new home somewhere where he feels more appreciated.
My honest hope though is that Avelone doesn't just continue to flit from project to project, becoming "human stretch goal" as it were. That's a disservice to his talents. Hopefully, he can find a new home somewhere where he feels more appreciated.
Anyone defending the RPG Codex needs to think long and hard about what forces they're allowing free rein just because they're passionate about a certain set of videogame mechanics.
Guys, I said that the discussion about RPG Codex is off-topic but I don't want it to seem like I'm avoiding your questions. If a moderator says that it's ok to continue that discussion here I will answer to every single person that quoted me.
There is some merit to discussing what was it about RPG Codex facilitated his speaking out but I honestly doubt it's the politics. I think the fact that the dudes worship the ground he walks on may have contributed to him being pretty loose-lipped during and post interview. It probably felt a bit like sitting around the pub shit talking to anybody within earshot. But the internet is forever, unfortunately.
It would say that it is also really unfortunate that there are people on that forum that seem to be going after Obsidian in a more proactive manner so, well, there is another reason why that particular medium seems to be a poor choice of venue. If you want to make an argument that that is because of their culture I think that's also fair.
Beyond that, I don't think it's worth discussing it more. I'm pretty sure people are abundantly clear what they happen to be about there. But I'm just one voice.
It would say that it is also really unfortunate that there are people on that forum that seem to be going after Obsidian in a more proactive manner so, well, there is another reason why that particular medium seems to be a poor choice of venue. If you want to make an argument that that is because of their culture I think that's also fair.
Beyond that, I don't think it's worth discussing it more. I'm pretty sure people are abundantly clear what they happen to be about there. But I'm just one voice.
Nothing was subtle nor meant to be. Honestly the better question is what it says about the grognard community in that it is dominated by bigots and white supremacists.