Chris Lee (loot box bills): "ESA lobbyists roaming the halls of the state capitol here as we speak"

[Billfisto]

Guys, guess what? Meat isn't actually technically murder. Getting meat usually means an animal loses its life, but it's possible (albeit inhumane) to eat meat off a live animal. You can eat meat off of animals that died of natural causes, too.

Curse those lying vegetarians.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Blizzard does disclose the odds of the Overwatch, Hearthstone, and Heroes loot boxes though.

https://kotaku.com/blizzard-reveals-overwatch-loot-box-odds-in-china-1794956138

This is it on the Chinese Overwatch site: http://ow.blizzard.cn/article/news/486

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That's historic data. They stopped it with Overwatch by reworking the game. This means the odds can now be changed again behind the scenes and no one knows.

 

[Abriael]

Okay 1. That's not how I remember it but if you have dates I'm willing to be convinced

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Microtransactions were removed on November 16th. The video was published on November 21st, five days later.

and 2. EA is going to reintroduce monetization in the future. They announced that they were pulling it "temporarily." This is a transient situation. They will be back.

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Monetization =/= Loot Boxes =/= Gambling. The fact that neither we nor Mr. Lee know whether Star Wars Battlefront will ever be comparable to a casino in the future is simply that, a fact. When the statement was made, the game was not a casino, and we don't have any indication about the future. Hence, the statement is factually false. What may or may not happen in an unspecified future has no bearing on that.

 

[Mr_F_Snowman]

The statement was made explicitly on Star Wars Battlefront II. It wasn't made on gaming as a whole, and it wasn't made on Need for Speed.

Star Wars Battlefront II does not quack like a casino.

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It does to pretty much all of the people in this thread bar yourself

 

[Abriael]

Like, come on man. This is fucking petty. It's not forbidden for one to make assumptions based on logic when it comes to arguments.

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It's not.

As a matter of fact, lying is not forbidden either, as far as I'm aware.

But making an assumption is different from presenting it as fact when it's factually incorrect at the moment.

What Lee did wasn't making an assumption. It was a lie.

It's not forbidden, but it's certainly contemptible, and I'm quite amazed that people defend it.

 

[Tranqueris]

Quite the hill to die on there. "Won't somebody think of the poor corporations".

Gotta love people who focuse on small technicalities while ignoring the larger context of things, as if EA had never did anything shady or wrong.

Who cares if the dude did the video before or after? We knew EA had a clear objective regarding their use of MTX in the future.

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Given some of the replies by that person, I would say that this is probably by design at this point.

 

[Tempy]

Fighting lootboxes from a gambling angle seems like a losing proposition since gambling laws define gambling as being able to gain money. Approach it from the addiction angle instead and fight it with whatever addiction exploitation laws there are, or lobby for new laws to cover videogames.

 

[Deleted member 36086]

I don't accept your position that he lied. Although they don't meet the current legal definition of gambling, I believe that loot boxes are gambling.

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cop: I'm pulling you over for speeding. You were going 57 when the posted limit is 60.
you: but that's not speeding
cop: Although the legal speeding limit is 60, I'm giving you a speeding ticket because I believe you were speeding anyways, have fun in court!

 

[Deleted member 5535]

I love how he continues to only focus on Battlefront 2 and EA while never mentioning the other companies that do the same. It's comical at this point.

 

[Deleted member 426]

I don't believe a politician pulling a bold-faced lie on a public video is a "small technicality."

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I definitely agree with you that people shouldn't underplay the fact that Battlefront wasn't using loot boxes for that period as a small technicality, and I also agree that when Lee said it was a casino at that time he was wrong.

But ultimately Battlefront engaged in shitty mechanics, and for all Lee knew they were going to return any minute. He almost certainly thought they would, so I totally get that mentioning that for a short period they didn't have loot boxes might have seemed besides the point. Again he was wrong, and yes he was off the mark.

But repeatedly saying "liar liar pants on fire" "bare faced liar" "lying politician" is Super extreme. And you're focusing in so much on him being a liar (which is far too black and white a way of looking at it) and intentionally ignoring literally everything else he has ever said.

It honestly shocks me that somebody can be so willfully ignorant in pursuit of being 'right'.

 

[Primus]

Fighting lootboxes from a gambling angle seems like a losing proposition since gambling laws define gambling as being able to gain money. Approach it from the addiction angle instead and fight it with whatever addiction exploitation laws there are, or lobby for new laws to cover videogames.

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Gambling laws are different in pretty much every state across the US. People need to stop making blanket statements on what gambling law is or isn't every time a loot box thread comes up. Hawaii gambling laws do not require money or monetary value for something to be considered gambling.

 

[Nanashrew]

Fighting lootboxes from a gambling angle seems like a losing proposition since gambling laws define gambling as being able to gain money. Approach it from the addiction angle instead and fight it with whatever addiction exploitation laws there are, or lobby for new laws to cover videogames.

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To be fair, it's lawmakers and legislators who define what gambling is. The gambling commissions just follow those laws made by them.

 

[NameUser]

But repeatedly saying "liar liar pants on fire" "bare faced liar" "lying politician" is Super extreme. And you're focusing in so much on him being a liar (which is far too black and white a way of looking at it) and intentionally ignoring literally everything else he has ever said.

It honestly shocks me that somebody can be so willfully ignorant in pursuit of being 'right'.

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Pretty much. They removed the stuff what, a week before he made that video? Seems like an honest mistake to me. It's just something to cling on so we can go around in circles while ignoring the real issue. Also, him bringing it up and all the bad press it generated is probably the reason they haven't brought them back!

 

[Deleted member 426]

Pretty much. They removed the stuff what, a week before he made that video? Seems like an honest mistake to me. It's just something to cling on so we can go around in circles while ignoring the real issue.

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I think it's less of a mistake and more like something he genuinely didn't think was an issue. So they've gone now and they'll be back in a week. Why would that stop me talking about this game's predatory practices? He was totally wrong but a liar? Nahhhh.

 

[Abriael]

I definitely agree with you that people shouldn't underplay the fact that Battlefront wasn't using loot boxes for that period as a small technicality, and I also agree that when Lee said it was a casino at that time he was wrong.

But ultimately Battlefront engaged in shitty mechanics, and for all Lee knew they were going to return any minute. He almost certainly thought they would, so I totally get that mentioning that for a short period they didn't have loot boxes might have seemed besides the point. Again he was wrong, and yes he was off the mark.

But repeatedly saying "liar liar pants on fire" "bare faced liar" "lying politician" is Super extreme. And you're focusing in so much on him being a liar (which is far too black and white a way of looking at it) and intentionally ignoring literally everything else he has ever said.

It honestly shocks me that somebody can be so willfully ignorant in pursuit of being 'right'.

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There was no visible indication anywhere that loot boxes would return soon. If Lee is a gamer as he claims, it's *very* hard to believe that he was completely ignorant of the thousands of articles on the facts and that he completely misread EA's statements.

I've been around gaming for 34 years now. Feel free to count a few years less because when I was 6 I certainly did not take note of politicians, but in the past 20-some years I've seen all sorts of politicians target games in the attempt to grab consensus for themselves with exactly the same methods Lee is using, misinformation, lies for effect, bringing along concerned parents, the church, and psychologists.

My first job was on anime before I moved on to games, so I experienced that in two different industries, and besides games I've lived through periods in which politicians wanting to crack down on animation because "Sailormoon causes kids to become gay" (not joking, it happened in my country, backed by the president of the local psychologists association).

So yeah. Not only I find the lie contemptible, but the whole method is something I'm intimately familiar with, and that absolutely disgusts me.

 

[Kcannon]

It's not.

As a matter of fact, lying is not forbidden either, as far as I'm aware.

But making an assumption is different from presenting it as fact when it's factually incorrect at the moment.

What Lee did wasn't making an assumption. It was a lie.

It's not forbidden, but it's certainly contemptible, and I'm quite amazed that people defend it.

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We don't want to look stupid attacking a guy because of timing issues, even though his points are completely valid in the end. We're not fucking computers.

 

[Liquidsnake]

What ever you guys think of him, something needs to be done.

 

[Ketch]

It's not.

As a matter of fact, lying is not forbidden either, as far as I'm aware.

But making an assumption is different from presenting it as fact when it's factually incorrect at the moment.

What Lee did wasn't making an assumption. It was a lie.

It's not forbidden, but it's certainly contemptible, and I'm quite amazed that people defend it.

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Do you work for the ESA? or EA? or something? Or have some personal vendetta against this politician?

The point is: consumers don't want to be taken advantage of by psychology manipulative and addictive microtransactions. It doesn't matter who this politician is, or what he said about what game. If it's not this guy pushing the government to regulate, eventually it'll be someone else.

The ESA should be regulating this with in the industry, to keep the government out, not lobbying the government so developers and publishers can keep taking advantage of these psychologically manipulative practices.

Everyone here should want to avoid the government coming in to regulate our hobby, especially if it's over some dumbass shit like loot boxes. It's not hard to understand, why are you fighting so hard against this here on an gaming enthusiast forum?

 

[Abriael]

We don't want to look stupid attacking a guy because of timing issues, even though his points are completely valid in the end. We're not fucking computers.

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A lie is not a "timing issue."

He had plenty of time to read the thousands of articles on the topic, not to mention EA's official statements.

 

[Billfisto]

cop: I'm pulling you over for speeding. You were going 57 when the posted limit is 60.
you: but that's not speeding
cop: Although the legal speeding limit is 60, I'm giving you a speeding ticket because I believe you were speeding anyways, have fun in court!

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Wat.

Yes, I wasn't meeting the legally-defined definition of speeding, so I shouldn't have been given a ticket.

However, if I was going way too fast in an unsafe manner, you could still colloquially say that I was speeding. If it's resulting in a situation where I could do harm to myself or others, I'd argue that should be regulated, too.

Words can have different meanings, legally, and colloquially. And I pretty much said that I acknowledge it's not legal gambling, but it meets the colloquial definition and I believe it's also harmful and should also be regulated. That's like, the whole point.

 

[Abriael]

Do you work for the ESA? or EA? or something? Or have some personal vendetta against this politician?

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Yep, not liking to be lied to must certainly have to do with working for a party involved (which I don't), or having some personal vendetta against a IMHO dishonest politician that lives and operates ten time zones away from me.

It can't just be not tolerating lies muddling a relevant discussion.

The point is: consumers don't want to be taken advantage of by psychology manipulative and addictive microtransactions.

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What consumers?

Considering how much money microtransactions make, I wouldn't be that sure that "consumers" want or not want anything.

Personally, I'm ok with Microtransactions depending on how they're implemented. I'm not fond of loot boxes, which is why I don't partake at all, but I don't confuse my personal point of view, or the popular point of view in certain internet-based environments with "consumers."

 

[Tempy]

A lie is not a "timing issue."

He had plenty of time to read the thousands of articles on the topic, not to mention EA's official statements.

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Just to be clear. Are you actually against the predatory practices of lootcrates in general? Or do you think it's overblown, and you fear politicians might needlessly start regulating videogames?

 

[Abriael]

Just to be clear. Are you actually against the predatory practices of lootcrates in general? Or do you think it's overblown, and you fear politicians might needlessly start regulating videogames?

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see above:

Personally, I'm ok with Microtransactions depending on how they're implemented. I'm not fond of loot boxes, which is why I don't partake at all, but I don't confuse my personal point of view, or the popular point of view in certain internet-based environments with "consumers."

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[Mister Saturn]

Seems like the ESA's efforts are well underway, especially when looking at this thread. You sound like an astro-turfer to me, Abriael. Not saying that you are, but just being honest since we know that's important to you.

 

[Tranqueris]

I love how he continues to only focus on Battlefront 2 and EA while never mentioning the other companies that do the same. It's comical at this point.

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It's almost like he's trying to get attention to try and fix a problem by using the example of gambling mechanics in a video game that got the most attention in the mainstream media.

 

[Kcannon]

A lie is not a "timing issue."

He had plenty of time to read the thousands of articles on the topic, not to mention EA's official statements.

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You say he had plenty of time to look at the subject. There's an assumption based on logic. And you're using it as an argument right now.

Like, you're focusing on a possible mistake that most people wouldn't mind at all, probably not even notice. Because it's not a big deal at all.

You're being more intolerant than an actual legal court lol. Talk about missing the forests for the trees.

 

[Tranqueris]

Seems like the ESA's efforts are well underway, especially when looking at this thread. You sound like an astro-turfer to me, Abriael. Not saying that you are, but just being honest since we know that's important to you.

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Ugh how dare you, the real issue here is that Chris Lee is a lying liar who lies. By the way did you guys hear about how Chris Lee lied that one time? I must have overheard it somewhere. Shut the thread down folks, we shouldn't reward a lying liar with attention. /s

 

[Abriael]

Seems like the ESA's efforts are well underway, especially when looking at this thread. You sound like an astro-turfer to me, Abriael. Not saying that you are, but just being honest since we know that's important to you.

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One doesn't need to be an astroturfer to dislike what Lee is doing. All is needed is having seen it attempted with exactly the same underhanded methods many, many times, in more than one industry.

Once upon a time it was violence, then sexuality, now it's loot boxes, I'm just waiting for someone to target virtual reality because it's gonna happen almost for sure. The tool changes, but the methods and the ultimate target remain the same.

 

[Kcannon]

One doesn't need to be an astroturfer to dislike what Lee is doing. All is needed is having seen it attempted with exactly the same underhanded methods many, many times, in more than one industry.

Once upon a time it was violence, then sexuality, now it's loot boxes. The tool changes, but the methods and the ultimate target remain the same.

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Are you seriously trying to compare violence and sexuality to fucking lootboxes?

Especially when the guy is on the side of "not wanting to screw human beings"?

 

[Bhonar]

What are you on about? The game was launched on Origin Access, a trial of the full game.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...star-wars-battlefront-2-loot-crates-at-launch
The trial of the full game contained loot boxes.

The retail game was then also reviewed by the likes of IGN, Gamespot etc and they complained about loot boxes in it.
https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/star-wars-battlefront-ii-review/1900-6416810/
The review copies had loot boxes in.
After this shitstorm EA took them out. So yes, it was opened in the first place. Doing some research before posting would help.

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Actually lootboxes were NOT available when the official retail version launched. The reviews you're referring to are because they were before the official launch took place. See:

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017...s-real-money-purchases-out-of-battlefield-ii/

I was strictly referring to the official retail launch to public.

Now you are correct about the Origin Access version, I forgot about that. But I suppose that's semantics, because I still consider that a preview version and not the real public launch version.

 

[Abriael]

Are you seriously trying to compare violence and sexuality to fucking lootboxes?

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The methods being used to instigate targeting them with regulation are exactly the same.

 

[Ketch]

Yep, not liking to be lied to must certainly have to do with working for a party involved (which I don't), or having some personal vendetta against a lying politicians that lives and operates ten time zones away from me.

It can't just be not tolerating lies muddling a relevant discussion.

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again... who this guy is or what he's said really doesn't matter. You've turned this entire thread into trying to discredit the least important part of the OP. He could fail miserably at whatever he's trying to do because he's a total scumbag liar heathen whatever, and it wouldn't change the fact that the ESA is actively lobbying against the health of the gaming industry. current loot box practices are not good for gamers.

What consumers?

Considering how much money microtransactions make, I wouldn't be that sure that "consumers" want or not want anything.

Personally, I'm ok with Microtransactions depending on how they're implemented. I'm not fond of loot boxes, which is why I don't partake at all, but I don't confuse my personal point of view, or the popular point of view in certain internet-based environments with "consumers."

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I don't mean to come across accusing, but I am genuinely confused on your stance. 100% anti lie (understandable) but neither here nor their on manipulative bullshit loot boxes being addressed.

 

[Tempy]

see above:

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Problem is that those consumers include children as well as adults susceptible to addiction and who really shouldn't be spending their money on lootcrates. But I gather you're fine with this.

 

[Mister Saturn]

One doesn't need to be an astroturfer to dislike what Lee is doing. All is needed is having seen it attempted with exactly the same underhanded methods many, many times, in more than one industry.

Once upon a time it was violence, then sexuality, now it's loot boxes. The tool changes, but the methods and the ultimate target remain the same.

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Never mind that you're now erecting a different argument, if you really want to be pissed off at someone then be pissed off at the industry and it's self-appointed watchdog groups. This issue is of their own making through negligence. Chris Lee gave ample warning beforehand that appropriate self-regulation is much preferred to pursuit of legislation.

 

[Chettlar]

The fact that neither we nor Mr. Lee know whether Star Wars Battlefront will ever be comparable to a casino in the future is simply that, a fact.

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Talk about lies

 

[Deleted member 198]

Damn it's been a long time since I've seen someone go this far to bat against consumers.

 

[Abriael]

Problem is that those consumers include children as well as adults susceptible to addiction and who really shouldn't be spending their money on lootcrates. But I gather you're fine with this.

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Addressing those problems should be part of parenting. I am not fond of shifting a parent's responsibility on legislation. I have never been, and I never will be.

I don't mean to come across accusing, but I am genuinely confused on your stance. 100% anti lie (understandable) but neither here nor their on manipulative bullshit loot boxes being addressed.

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A lie is a factual, clear-cut issue.

The "manipulative bullshit" is a lot more nuanced.

Incidentally, I don't believe for a second that Lee isn't being manipulative to further his own goals, hence the lie, and the emotional charade with priests, moms, and the stereotypically unkept repenting gamer.

 

[NameUser]

Crazy how one person can derail a thread by repeating the same thing ad nauseam.

We get it--you think he's a liar. Maybe he is . . .

But something really needs to be done about loot boxes. The ESA should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[roguesquirrel]

Because I don't think lies should be tolerated, and any cause based on them is severely undermined, muddling the discourse by appealing to feeling instead of rational thinking.

Why are you ok with falsehood as long as it fits a narrative that furthers a cause you're ok with?

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This is a weird road to take when you doing the exact same thing a few posts ago by heavily implying he was faking his footage. What purpose does musing if he was faking the footage serve other than to deliberately muddy the waters?

I saw enough. And it's entirely possible that all of that is just as canned as Snoop Dogg "playing" SOS on Twitch.

Yet whether he's a "gamer" or not, the fact remains that he openly lied about the issue to grab attention, which you have not addressed.

As a matter of fact, if he's actually involved as you think he is, it being a bold-faced lie is even more probable as opposed to being simply misinformed by some lazy advisor.

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[Abriael]

Crazy how one person can derail a thread by repeating the same thing ad nauseam.

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The thread isn't just about what should be done with loot boxes, but also about Chris Lee, as indicated in the first two words of the title.

Expressing a position that doesn't fit the locally popular consensus does not mean derailing the thread.

 

[Mister Saturn]

Damn it's been a long time since I've seen someone go this far to bat against consumers.

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With all the stories lately about Russian bot nets and astroturfing, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the ESA and other industry lobby groups were engaging in a bit of the ole forum and social-network PSYOP.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Abriael: You've made your perspective abundantly clear at this point. Please move on from this conversation.

This goes for everyone else too: let's move on from dissecting Chris Lee's verbiage and back to the actual substance of the article.

 

[Ketch]

Addressing those problems should be part of parenting. I am not fond of shifting a parent's responsibility on legislation. I have never been, and I never will be.



A lie is a factual, clear-cut issue.

The "manipulative bullshit" is a lot more nuanced.

Incidentally, I don't believe for a second that Lee isn't being manipulative to further his own goals, hence the lie, and the emotional charade with priests, moms, and the stereotypically unkept repenting gamer.

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Okay that's fine, but this thread is about how the ESA is lobbying the government instead of regulating the industry. You know, giving parents the tools they need so they can keep their kids away from the digital crack dispensers.

 

[diablos991]

Has to make you feel sick inside when your job is lobbying to extort vulnerable children and adults.

 

[Abriael]

Abriael: You've made your perspective abundantly clear at this point. Please move on from this conversation.

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Fine.

 

[Kcannon]

EDIT: Oops, didn't see the warning.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Okay that's fine, but this thread is about how the ESA is lobbying the government instead of regulating the industry. You know, giving parents the tools they need so they can keep their kids away from the digital crack dispensers.

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As an outsider to America the last few weeks for me have been learning a bit more about the ESA. I used to mix up the ESRB and ESA too.

This comment from Lee is just mildly funny given the recent PR statement from the ESA around supporting parents and wanting to give more information and help. You'd think they'd at least be supporting the odds transparency part of these bills.

I accept the age restriction bill will most likely sink like a bag of bricks, but everyone should be gunning for winning odds transparency at a minimum. The industry won't self-regulate this.

 

[Deleted member 426]

Edit: mod note!

 

[Falk]

Cooperate lobbying continues to be a disgusting practice and unfortunately the videogame industry isn't an exception.

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ya i generally cant stand coop either

 

[Kill3r7]

What exactly did he think would happen? You are going after an industry bigger than Hollywood. The game industry has been relatively passive when it comes to donating and throwing its weight around in congress but these are not tiny companies. The big 5 on their own can make this a pretty brutal fight.