The ESA created the ESRB to prove that the game industry didn't need the governments help to not abuse consumers
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Chris Lee (loot box bills): "ESA lobbyists roaming the halls of the state capitol here as we speak"
- Thread starter Deleted member 888
- Start date
The ESA created the ESRB to prove that the game industry didn't need the governments help to not abuse consumers
First of all, speed limits are posted because it's been determined that driving over the posted speed limit is unsafe. If you are driving below the posted speed limit, it is impossible to be "going way too fast in an unsafe manner."
Second, by your reasoning, colloquial meanings should have equal weight as legally defined terms? So when the posted limit is 60, and you get pulled over at 57, its cool because the cop says you were being unsafe at 57 when everyone else is going 50?
I get that loot box haters want loot boxes out of the game they play so badly, but to argue that colloquial meanings should have the same weight as legal terms is really something else. Like if we used the colloquial term for gambling instead of the legal definition then things that weren't gambling would now be gambling. All trading cards, pretty much any game with RNG, charity casino nights, even the stock market and for sure buying crypto.
Yes, it is. Speed limits are fallible. Road conditions can change, vehicles can change. When circumstances change the limit needs to be changed, or new rules need to be introduced. I'm not saying if the posted speed limit is 60 and you're going 57 you're legally guilty of speeding, I'm saying that if the posted speed limit is 60 and you're going 57 but for some reason 57 is unsafe (children on the road, ice, a blind corner because a bush hasn't been trimmed in a while, etc) the speed limit should be changed.
Loot boxes are not legally gambling at this point, but they share similarities and I believe should be regulated, either by legally including them under the legal definition of gambling or by coming up with something new.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I believe loot boxes fit the colloquial definition of gambling, and should be included within the legal constraints of existing gambling rules. My position is that they do not have equal weight, but we should take steps to move them from the "colloquial" bucket to the "legal" bucket.
Look at any digital media - downloading something for free is piracy, but it's not legally piracy until the law defines it as piracy. When there's a paradigm shift the laws eventually come into place.
All of those do have regulations associated with them that have been developed over time, barring crypto. I'd hazard crypto is being looked at pretty heavily, though. Again, a new thing, and the laws are slow to respond.
The ESA will fight this until they realize their only winning move is to self-regulate. Which means they'll fight it all the way to congressional hearings if they have to. And state government works far faster than Washington, where the issue could languish, all while companies continue to do their thing.
Yeah, calling it now. They're going to end up turning Lootboxes into a Partisan-issue before long.
Please tell me how Doom and Mortal Kombat abused customers. The ESRB was created to counteract Right-Wing/DINO Moral-Panic that was about to literally castrate games as an Artform.
Please tell me how Doom and Mortal Kombat abused customers. The ESRB was created to counteract Right-Wing/DINO Moral-Panic that was about to literally castrate games as an Artform.
Doom and Mortal Kombat contained material inappropriate for children. Because of that whole kerfuffle, the industry implemented clear self-regulation to ensure games with potentially objectionable material is more difficult for children to access, and parents/buyers can make more informed decisions. I'd say that's a win.
I definitely feel that outright banning any adult material is not something that should have been done, and thankfully it wasn't.
I'd prefer that loot boxes be classified as gambling and regulated as such, but worst case scenario I'd be okay with the threat of regulations prompting similar self-regulation.
I believe the question was "Please tell me how Doom and Mortal Kombat abused customers." Do you have an answer to that question?
And I can give you a major argument against the ESRB right now:
Every game that gets released on a console requires an ESRB rating. Part of getting an ESRB rating involves paying the ESA a few thousand dollars. That money is then spent on lobbying efforts like this.
Among various other items of disdain I have concerning the ESRB that are tantamount to the ESA running a racket.
interesting topic
i don't like lootboxes, but i've spent more money in total on CCGs than i have on normal games in the past few years so i don't know if regulations would change the types of games that will get made
i don't like lootboxes, but i've spent more money in total on CCGs than i have on normal games in the past few years so i don't know if regulations would change the types of games that will get made
Children had access to content that may not have been appropriate for their level of development, and parents may have purchased games and been surprised at the content they included. Due to copyright laws surrounding video games they would have been unable to return an opened game they did not want their child to play.
Yes, that's definitely an argument against something the ESRB does, and I'd agree that warrants fixing. That doesn't mean that loot boxes should not be regulated in some way.
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This dude is just trying to get behind something that can get him support. He doesn't care . I listened to his speech and he was so out of touch with the reality, just using attention grabbing lies and buzzwords to rile people up. People like that want to create a mob mentality based on half truths.
CCGs have listed odds for quite some time now and are fixed at that (you'll always get X amount of commons, Y amount of uncommons and Z amount of rares), and unlike video game loot boxes, cards themselves do offer up resell value so that someone can make their money back and quite possibly profit from it.
i'm 100% in favor of publishing probabilities of each item. is the ESA against this requirement?
i see broad discussions about "gambling" but i don't know what the specific issue is
as for reselling, most of the computer games don't actually have resale methods. out of what i've played, only Hex and Magic Online have some convoluted path from which I could get some money back
I don't always agree with the government, and I complain a lot, but I still pay my taxes and give props for the good things the government does.
People have every right to be disappointed in how the ESA is handling this situation but can still like E3.
I'm not sure what the ESA's stance is on displaying probabilities, but Apple did recently mandate that developers had to display rates for any game that featured loot boxes and similar mechanics on the App Store. That's a huge first step, and it hopefully does lead to a similar solution elsewhere.
It's how laws are made in the US. You give the law makers lots of money and they vote for what you want.
Strange that more people don't see an issue with the system.
You're right, I shouldn't have said that's what the ESA made the ESRB for. It's what I wish they would do now, but it's not what they made the ESRB for then.
This is what needs to happen, hopefully before it's too late.
Come on, open your eyes!! He's against lootboxes. Obviously he's in it for the chicks, money, and fame
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They don't want to ask the games devs and pubs to do anything and how Blizzard behaved in China shows the big boys will do everything possible to hide their drop rates.
Unlike physical products like a pack of cards, digital drop rates are changeable right up to the second a loot box is opened. This means they can be manipulated.
The industry obviously has a fear if they display their odds the gamers might cut a little of their profit if some people do have enough self-control to decide fuck these pathetically low winning odds.
Everyone knows the odds are shit just now in most games, but it's the manipulation or influencing of the mind when rates aren't known which keeps people thinking "next time I'll win big".
Journalists need to keep pressuring the big boys for why they don't display drop rates. Everyone's favourite comparison, trading cards, have long displayed their drop rates on the packets (even although there is as above still a big difference between physical paid RNG and digital).
Many speculate Apple sprinted down that route so they have some standing to say we self-regulate leave us alone. Apple doing that now isn't just a coincidence. They've for many years not given a single shit about the whale season and horror stories that come from most popular F2P mobile games. Good luck seeing Sony or MS mandate drop rate odds from the devs and pubs. It really needs the ESA or ESRB to make it a requirement during certification.
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People do. The GOP has shut down any attempt at reform since Citizens United.
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https://www.mcvuk.com/business/rain...greedy-whatsoever-on-paid-outbreak-loot-boxes
ESA presenting their case imminently.
Thank you! Though I do feel you are being easy on him.
That's a pathetic stance to take. I really hope this Lee guy gets things done. While I'm currently unaffected to this due to my interests (Japanese games, handhelds, Sony exclusives), it has started to creep in. I don't want the rest to join in on this. Hopefully those devs will hold back due to pressure and negative publicity.
See my first quote.
Of course it isn't. Which is why you should want an industry to take common sense approaches to avoid such an outcome. Sadly, we're talking about the video game industry...
I think we're inviting the government to regulate a method of commerce, which is one of its primary functions. Anyone arguing real-money gambling is their "art" also has a bridge to sell you.
And let the industry run free with massive riches on the backs of the rich and exploited? Self-regulation has failed on this matter, and it's going to cost the industry big money once the issue is sorted out
In this thread I learned that buying randomized loot crates is art.
To rearrange a popular quote.
"I don't know art, but I know what I hate"
Some people just have a serious ideological problem with regulation.
Yeah.
Regulation is bad.
Exploitation is art.
Personally, I would also prefer if the government did not get involved but the ESA is proving that they are not going to police themselves.
Jesus Christ I will never understand the corporate defenders/apologists in these threads. I'm not saying everyone has to be have the same opinion but let's get a few things straight.
Loot boxes are bad.. not good bad.. we should all as gamers be united on this front.The gaming industry survived just fine without them and it would be fine without them again. We the gamers are the ones that are being exploited here. It doesn't matter HOW we got here but we're here and it's time for legislation.
It can only be a good thing.
As far as that politician telling a "lie". He exaggerated. We have listened for years as games were been described as 'killing simulators" and now the one time a politician seems to be on our side to do something good for the industry you wanna get into technicalities about whether he was lying or not or what defines an online casino? Wtf?
On these kinds of forums you will literally have someone to defend anything.
Loot boxes are bad.. not good bad.. we should all as gamers be united on this front.The gaming industry survived just fine without them and it would be fine without them again. We the gamers are the ones that are being exploited here. It doesn't matter HOW we got here but we're here and it's time for legislation.
It can only be a good thing.
As far as that politician telling a "lie". He exaggerated. We have listened for years as games were been described as 'killing simulators" and now the one time a politician seems to be on our side to do something good for the industry you wanna get into technicalities about whether he was lying or not or what defines an online casino? Wtf?
On these kinds of forums you will literally have someone to defend anything.
Yay lobbyists. Fuck off.
Hah, great choice for gif.Of course it isn't. Which is why you should want an industry to take common sense approaches to avoid such an outcome. Sadly, we're talking about the video game industry...
I personally have changed my stance on these recently, and as a huge fan of a all digital future, with gaming services similar to netflix, this doesn't phase me.
Most of my future gaming will be done through services like gamepass and EA access, so having micropayments in these games / services just seems like a logical or even natural step. Games are not movies, and cannot produce the same income, so having or maybe even adding ads would work, but MTX in my opinion is a good fit.
Just making games like they used to, would not work in this business model.
I really would not call video games art.
Most of my future gaming will be done through services like gamepass and EA access, so having micropayments in these games / services just seems like a logical or even natural step. Games are not movies, and cannot produce the same income, so having or maybe even adding ads would work, but MTX in my opinion is a good fit.
Just making games like they used to, would not work in this business model.
I really would not call video games art.
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Of course it isn't. Which is why you should want an industry to take common sense approaches to avoid such an outcome. Sadly, we're talking about the video game industry...
lol, perfect gif.
Twin Peaks <3
The typical "he didn't do anything before so we shouldn't do anything now" logic sure is weird. Not to mention devoid of any context whatsoever.
Games have a bigger revenue stream than the movie industry.
This whole "this is what I want so it's okay" is again missing what is happening to other people. I just don't understand how people can willfully ignore that because they'll save a few bucks and corporations will make more money.
Loot box can be MTX ( in the general sense when used in those topic they are, but technicaly a game can a lootbox with no real money involved ). Not all MTX is loot box.
It's not about gamepass, it's not about "get that horse armor for 15€", it's about "roll the dice for 5€ and hope you get what you want ( and I wont tell you if it's a 6 sided or 10000 sided dice )".
When China has better loot box regulation than you, it's time to rethink your approach.
And obviously the government is only stepping in because the industry won't regulate itself. At its heart, lootboxes are gambling and eventually it's going to be classified as such... it's just going to be a much quicker process if shit keeps going unchecked
I wholeheartedly agree, just tell that to the "taxation is theft" brigade. I'd rather it be government than that shady looking ESA-made one.