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Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
In a huge post on the Star Citizen forum, Chris Roberts sheds some light on the development of Star Citizen, and why it's taken so long.

My biggest disappointment with modern internet discourse is that there's a significant amount of cynicism, especially in forum or reddit debates, and a portion of people assume the worst. If a feature is missing, late or buggy it's because the company or the developer lied and or / is incompetent as opposed to the fact that it just took longer and had more problems than the team thought it would when they originally set out to build it. Developers by their very nature are optimistic. You have to be to build things that haven't ever been built before. Otherwise the sheer weight of what is needed to be done can crush you. But being optimistic or not foreseeing issues isn't the same as lying or deliberately misleading people. Everyone at CIG is incredibly passionate about making Star Citizen the most immersive massively multiplayer first person universe sandbox, and everyone works very hard to deliver that. If we could deliver harder, faster, better we would. We get just as frustrated with the time things take. We practice bottom up task estimation where the team implementing the feature breaks it down and gives their estimates of how long it will take them. Management doesn't dictate timelines, we just set priorities for the teams as there are always a lot more things to do at any one time than we have people to do them. We are constantly reviewing and trying to improve our AGILE development process and how we estimate sprints. As the code, feature and content base grows there is more maintenance and support needed for the existing features and content, which can eat into the time a team has for new feature development, meaning you always have the push and pull of current quality of life in a release versus delivering new features and content. The same push and pull exists in the community as there is a strong desire for polished bug free gameplay now but also new features and content, often from the very same people.

Switching the roadmap format was something that I made a priority for us at the start of the year when it was clear that the current roadmap format wasn't helping, especially as the teams really didn't want to commit until absolutely definitely their feature would make it, which you'll normally only know about six weeks before release, due to the vitriol they would see when a task was pushed back, despite our best efforts to get everyone that looks at the current Road Map to read and acknowledge the caveats ( https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/1-Star-Citizen/info ) which explicitly say some of the tasks are likely to slip. Getting tired of this I felt it would be best for the community to see the same view I and the rest of the senior development management see on Star Citizen and Squadron 42. This won't stop people from disagreeing with our priority calls or how long something takes, but at least it will share the overall picture and people can see exactly what everyone is working on at any moment and how long it is projected to take. They will be able to see it change when it does for us and hopefully appreciate how many people are working really hard to make Star Citizen a game like no other. One of the reasons the new Road Map is taking time because we're building a system that visualizes all this as a top level directly from our JIRA database. We plan to use a more verbose version of the public roadmap for our internal sprint scheduling, so the data you see will be a sanitized version of what we see (we won't share individual developer names and assignments publically for obvious reasons but internally we will see this).

This is the game I've dreamed of my whole life. Now I am in a position to realize it, I am not willing to compromise it's potential because it is taking longer than I originally envisioned. What I will commit to, and what is an internal priority is to improve the current gameplay and quality of life as we go, as Star Citizen is already fun in many ways, even if more buggy and not as stable as I would like, and just finishing off and polishing the basics will make it play as well or better than most other games.

I can promise you the gameplay I described is not a pipe dream, nor will it take 10 to 20 years to deliver. I described systems we either have working, or are working on; we've even shown early versions of some of this like fire on Inside Star Citizen. I can't promise you exactly what quarter it will come together but once the new Road Map web work is done you'll be able to see the teams progress to achieving what I describe in real time.

More at the link:

robertsspaceindustries.com

Spectrum - v6.20.1

RSI’s Spectrum is our integrated community and player interaction service, including chat, forums, game integration, and Player Organization facilities. Player Organizations (“Org”...
 

Belthazar90

Banned
Jun 3, 2019
4,316
Fast forward to 20 pages of people:

1) Calling this a scam and mocking people who spent money in this game, calling them whales or worst

2) Defending the fact that they/others spent thousands of dollars on concept art.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
I can promise you the gameplay I described is not a pipe dream, nor will it take 10 to 20 years to deliver. I described systems we either have working, or are working on; we've even shown early versions of some of this like fire on Inside Star Citizen. I can't promise you exactly what quarter it will come together but once the new Road Map web work is done you'll be able to see the teams progress to achieving what I describe in real time.

So really nothing new. No date in site, just that they are making progress. Same answers as last year and the years before it and I bet next year as well. My suggestion is to stop accepting more funding and work within the means you have so that you can focus on getting the game done as opposed to expanding your vision even more.
 

Hazzuh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,166
I can promise you the gameplay I described is not a pipe dream, nor will it take 10 to 20 years to deliver. I described systems we either have working, or are working on; we've even shown early versions of some of this like fire on Inside Star Citizen. I can't promise you exactly what quarter it will come together but once the new Road Map web work is done you'll be able to see the teams progress to achieving what I describe in real time.

Uh.. didn't the game enter development in 2011?
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,348
Good for him on addressing it, even if it's far too late. But even he has to admit the whole thing will crush under it's own weight sooner or later if he doesn't start to ship some kind of functioning base game that can be iterated upon.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,543
Fast forward to 20 pages of people:

1) Calling this a scam and mocking people who spent money in this game, calling them whales or worst

2) Defending the fact that they/others spent thousands of dollars on concept art.
it is incredibly difficult not to mock people who spent hundreds of dollars or more on this already
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,018
You buried the lead, he was replying to a poster.

My biggest disappointment with modern internet discourse is that there's a significant amount of cynicism, especially in forum or reddit debates, and a portion of people assume the worst.

You going to be on some bullshit with this, but in replying to a valid question you going to a whole new level
 

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,339
If we could deliver harder, faster, better we would. We get just as frustrated with the time things take. We practice bottom up task estimation where the team implementing the feature breaks it down and gives their estimates of how long it will take them.
Its not very believable that this is actually working and the project is actually being properly managed given things like Bartender AI.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,460
I'd love to see it all work out as originally envisioned, the concepts and the ideas and some of the stuff on show looks amazing.

At the moment though all I can think of is that whole story about the bartender AI development followed by watching the video of the bartender in action which seems to encapsulate at least some of the development issues the game is having.
 

PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,444
Broad vision is fine, but they should have focused on releasing contained, finished modules that are complete, and expand on those over time, not unlike No Man's Sky.
 

Karlinel

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
7,826
Mallorca, Spain
At some point, every project needs to close its scope and stop adding interesting stuff, otherwise it just becomes massive and unmanageable...
 

Ze_Shoopuf

Member
Jun 12, 2018
3,932
So really nothing new. No date in site, just that they are making progress. Same answers as last year and the years before it and I bet next year as well. My suggestion is to stop accepting more funding and work within the means you have so that you can focus on getting the game done as opposed to expanding your vision even more.
Well said!
 

selfnoise

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,449
I get frustrated with the discourse around this game where the two options are

A> It's awesome actually and fuck you
or
B> It's all a "scam"

I mean, it's obviously not a "scam" since they are employing entire teams of people and paying them and offering them benefits and occupying real estate. If you wanted to rip people off there are about a million easier ways.

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that they're just not up to the task of creating something this impossibly large and can't back out. In fact, that ends up being the problem with many, many crowdfunding projects.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
So really nothing new. No date in site, just that they are making progress. Same answers as last year and the years before it and I bet next year as well. My suggestion is to stop accepting more funding and work within the means you have so that you can focus on getting the game done as opposed to expanding your vision even more.

Great take, and agree with this and what another poster said: create finished modules and release them as is.

One of the main issues I have is that the scope of the game is so huge, it feels like you can never realistically "complete" it.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Wasn't this game supposed to come out in 2014
Why would it if you have access to 10's of millions of dollars each year to keep development going as long as you want? In a normal situation you have a set amount of funds and you try and work within it. You also have a publisher who wants to get a return on those funds so they have a set date to try and sell the game.

This whole situation seems like it's catered to the well being of those on the project, not to the investors.
 

The Masked Mufti

The Wise Ones
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,989
Scotland
I can promise you the gameplay I described is not a pipe dream, nor will it take 10 to 20 years to deliver. I described systems we either have working, or are working on; we've even shown early versions of some of this like fire on Inside Star Citizen. I can't promise you exactly what quarter it will come together but once the new Road Map web work is done you'll be able to see the teams progress to achieving what I describe in real time.

So really nothing new. No date in site, just that they are making progress. Same answers as last year and the years before it and I bet next year as well. My suggestion is to stop accepting more funding and work within the means you have so that you can focus on getting the game done as opposed to expanding your vision even more.
When your fan base will happily chuck thousands at you (for a game they'll have to drop £60 on upon release I'm guessing), there's no reason to bring it in and actually work on having it released within a reasonable amount of time.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,018
Broad vision is fine, but they should have focused on releasing contained, finished modules that are complete, and expand on those over time, not unlike No Man's Sky.
Self editing can be hard, should always have someone on the team that tells you "No" or "thats some bullshit"
 

Laserbeam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,441
Canada
I spent whatever the smallest amount of money was years ago to get whatever access was offered because it all sounded so cool and I haven't really checked in on it since and no longer even have a computer close to being able to run it.

At this point I kind of dig how massive it has become and am kind of fine with it never being "done". I occasionally read update emails or whatever, but I'm so far out of the loop that I don't even care that much.

Whole thing is just kind of amazing and bizarre to me.
 

Artadius

Avenger
Jan 15, 2018
246
So basically at least 21 years or more to deliver then.

I wonder how many of their whales have passed away over the years... I know, its morbid, not making light of loss of life... but you can't ask for a refund or enter a class action lawsuit if you're dead. ::thinkingmeme::
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
When your fan base will happily chuck thousands at you (for a game they'll have to drop £60 on upon release I'm guessing), there's no reason to bring it in and actually work on having it released within a reasonable amount of time.
Yes and legally they can get away with it because as he said, they are making progress. You can show that all the money is going back into production because you have all these people with great job security plugging away...year after year.

Can you imagine building a high-rise apartment complex and accepting down payments. Telling future homeowners that the plan is to open in 5 years but after 5 years you say well instead of 10 floors it will now be 15 floors and you keep expanding year after year?
 

DorkLord54

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,465
Michigan
I honestly don't think it's a scam, but it's pretty clear that Roberts - along with being a bad project lead due to his perfectionism and general demeanor - is really bad about addressing feature creep, and instead of trying to nip it in the bud he gives in and tries to deliver even if it's unreasonable.
 

Khezu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,947
I will keep believing in Star Citizen.

Probably helps that none of this is my money though.

If it comes out and delivers as promised I get a sweet game out of it.

If not, the fallout will be equally entertaining.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
Even being real generous and not counting pre-announcement production time against them, it's been nearly 8 years. So yeah, fairly ridiculous to dismiss concern with the statement that it's not going to take 10 years... when it's already been 8.

He's not dismissing the concern, he's dismissing the surface level explanations from internet users that attempt to say that the development of Star Citizen and the issues it faces are easily fixable, and then he's offering insight as to why.
 

hob982

Member
Oct 27, 2017
321
Honestly thought the roadmap thing was done already. They're working on it. All will be clear when we'll see it. Oooook....
Being burned from failed or under-delivering kickstarters I've become wary of crowdfunding so they'll see my money as soon as SQ42 is done and feature-complete.
 

The Masked Mufti

The Wise Ones
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,989
Scotland
Yes and legally they can get away with it because as he said, they are making progress. You can show that all the money is going back into production because you have all these people with great job security plugging away...year after year.

Can you imagine building a high-rise apartment complex and accepting down payments. Telling future homeowners that the plan is to open in 5 years but after 5 years you say well instead of 10 floors it will now be 15 floors and you keep expanding year after year?
Which is why I think everything surrounding this game is a joke and that people shouldn't be encouraging them. Whales gonna whale though.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
The perfect is the enemy of the good. At some point you have to make cuts and compromises, and release a product.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
The problem is potential is endless. It never runs dry. If you chase "potential", and you are unwilling to ever compromise on your project's potential, then I am not convinced you will ever complete anything. Now, that may sound hyperbolic, as clearly everyone understands that they have to compromise at some point, but the development of Star Citizen doesn't give me much faith.
 

Mudo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,114
Tennessee
LOL is their development process actually called AGILE ? Incredible.
Look, I believe that deep down inside Chris Roberts wants to make a game, but I feel like it has become a walking frankenstein monstrosity that just is not possible to deliver on. And besides, when you are raking in millions by selling ships that cost up to thousands of real dollars, what's the rush to actually lock down a feature set and complete the game? I sure as hell would ride the wave too if people want to keep buying in game ships that don't even exist yet.

I hope Star Citizen does release someday, and I think *something* will come out eventually, but I just do not think their current, overall plan is possible to actually do to the level they want - no matter how much more money and time they have.

Also "It isn't going to take 10 or 20 years to make" - Isn't the game like 8+ years into development today?

Anyways, actions speak louder than words. Actually finish something related to this game, and release it. Not alpha systems and bartenders. Real, meaningful completed content. That would go a long way to easing people's fears of the current state of things.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,039
I dont understand. I dont follow this game at all, but there is a game out there that you can play, right?

Then what is it? What are people playing?
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,289
It's possible that this will eventually come out and have everything and more. But in the meantime, Elite Dangerous was started around the same time, was released ages ago and has been worked on since. And once this finally does come out, all the expansions will probably put it in the same ballpark in terms of features. Same with No Man's Sky.

It's funny that they're mentioning AGILE, because the entire point of that development philosophy is to release a viable product and iterate and add features later on. Not plugging away at an ideal monolith that you decided on ten years ago.
 

ReginaldXIV

Member
Nov 4, 2017
7,778
Minnesota
I'm sure some version of the game will come out, but it'll never live up to how much money was thrown at this game.

I also would not doubt they'll string this along for a few more years with a perpetual beta build, then sell off all the assets and code while bracing for a possible lawsuit.

Both can be true at this point.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
I get frustrated with the discourse around this game where the two options are

A> It's awesome actually and fuck you
or
B> It's all a "scam"

I mean, it's obviously not a "scam" since they are employing entire teams of people and paying them and offering them benefits and occupying real estate. If you wanted to rip people off there are about a million easier ways.

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that they're just not up to the task of creating something this impossibly large and can't back out. In fact, that ends up being the problem with many, many crowdfunding projects.
It's a work project. The goal is the employing all those fine individuals rather than producing any of those bothersome things like a tangible retail release.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,150
NYC
I think there's a fairly fundamental problem with Star Citizen at this point and it's related wholly to the breadth of it.

At some point you're bringing in more money through individuals and groups funding the development than you would if the game was live. A casual audience will look at a game with such a wide array of things to "do" and potentially find it to be overwhelming--or they learn that the thing they want to do is something that's behind several dozens of hours of gameplay--and drop the game entirely.

These games are niche to begin with. Adding systems upon systems does not make the game easier for a casual player to pick up, it just makes it even more niche.

I can only imagine that once the game is released in a 1.0 fashion, a lot of that VC funding goes away because they're no longer funding the development. Thus it makes more sense to keep the game in development until they absolutely need to release a 1.0 client.
 

DieH@rd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,558
I dont understand. I dont follow this game at all, but there is a game out there that you can play, right?

Then what is it? What are people playing?
People are playing early versions of Star Citizen, a multiplayer game that is currently of the size of one solar system [they plan to add many more star systems]. Space flying, FPS combat, landing on planets, trading, mining, simple combat missions, etc.


That will be the big space sim game, with great focus on realism in countless aspects.

In addition to that, they are making singleplayer campaign Squadron 42 with big story and lots of Hollywood actors. A propper spiritual sequel to Wing Commander games. :)