Christian Era |OT| W.W.J.D

[Deffers]

I guess I'm learning to be more comfortable in my skin and to stand... "in my truth" feels odd, given the thread, but in my integrity, I guess is the more correct way of thinking about it? I feel like I need to learn to be a dynamic individual and to become more perceptive with other people.

 

[Firefoxprime]

Man, so many threads on this forum where I just think the OP.... Just needs Jesus. It's as simple as that. So much despair, loneliness, hopelessness, suicidal thoughts etc. And I don't feel comfortable even suggesting that on this forum. I would if I met any of them in real life.

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Why would you be comfortable? You're literally in a place where EVERYTHING is debatable.

I dunno if you have that personal relationship, but I would recommend praying to Jesus before entering any discussions about personal lives, current events, etc.

If your conversations aren't within his will, then you're basically forcing Jesus on people.

You know that's not how he rolls.

I guess I'm learning to be more comfortable in my skin and to stand... "in my truth" feels odd, given the thread, but in my integrity, I guess is the more correct way of thinking about it? I feel like I need to learn to be a dynamic individual and to become more perceptive with other people.

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That's some deep introspection. Not sure what it's connecting to though.

 

[Deffers]

That's some deep introspection. Not sure what it's connecting to though.

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Duckroll suggested we reflect on our years, so I did. Most of it happened off-forum. Family stuff.

 

[DarkDetective]

Why would you be comfortable? You're literally in a place where EVERYTHING is debatable.

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In my opinion, this forum is not a place with such a wide space of mind, where everything is debatable. There are a lot of opinions that can be considered 'holy houses' that should simply not be 'attacked'. I'm not that active on the EtcetEra side of the forum, but I've seen contra-religious statements by quite a number of people in threads.

 

[duckroll]

This year I feel I learned a lot about taking a step back and letting things play out without judging or presuming. Less micromanagement of my plans and my feelings, allowing God to be God and to lead me where He will. It hasn't been easy but it has been rewarding.

In the coming year I hope to continue on this journey without worrying about a particular destination. I don't need to be in control all the time, I don't need to be the person with the right opinion or the right assumption about every situation. I want to listen first and practice more humility. And in all things I want to truly trust the Lord.

I also hope that we don't feel disheartened by the increasingly hostile and secular environment around us, and instead of lashing out in anger or turning apathetic, we can reach out in love. Seems like one of the hardest things on this forum these days - to just be kind amid all the shouting over each other and snarky attitudes.

Peace be with all of you and I hope everyone has a great new year! ❤️

 

[Goya]

I've become more sincere and killed off a number of brainworms.

 

[Firefoxprime]

This year I feel I learned a lot about taking a step back and letting things play out without judging or presuming. Less micromanagement of my plans and my feelings, allowing God to be God and to lead me where He will. It hasn't been easy but it has been rewarding.

In the coming year I hope to continue on this journey without worrying about a particular destination. I don't need to be in control all the time, I don't need to be the person with the right opinion or the right assumption about every situation. I want to listen first and practice more humility. And in all things I want to truly trust the Lord.

I also hope that we don't feel disheartened by the increasingly hostile and secular environment around us, and instead of lashing out in anger or turning apathetic, we can reach out in love. Seems like one of the hardest things on this forum these days - to just be kind amid all the shouting over each other and snarky attitudes.

Peace be with all of you and I hope everyone has a great new year! ❤

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Absolutely. Just have to be savvy and tactful. I'd like to add that most people here have misinformed assumptions on christians.

And.....they have no intention to actively research 😂.

It's really not their fault they've encountered lukewarm or false christians.

Think about all these previous decades where christianity was "mainstream".

People are tired of begrudingly attending church, so I can at the very basic level, respect them enough to not "fake" being a christian.

For next year, I need to strengthen my knowledge of the bible, theology, etc.

People deserve to know the truth, but I'm a disservice to them if I can't properly answer their inquisitive questions.

Spoiler: bonus

Lastly, I recommend listening to Moody Radio. They have fantastic music and radio shows. 24/7. This is not Klove....😝

They legit talk about everything, from raising children, to finances, relationships, and current events. It's the international radio branch of a christian university in Chicago.

Preachers and teachers from different sex, ethnicities, and nationalities.

Many radio shows discuss the bible from different angles: emotional, intellectual, and practical.

This station has been pouring into me for the last 10 years, and I pray it will do the same for you 👍.

 

[HosannaExcelsis]

I don't know that I've made major changes or learned major lessons this year. Perhaps the biggest one would be that I've instituted more regular liturgical practices and returned to reading and studying Scripture and theology (as well as other subjects) on a more regular basis - both of which help keep me more grounded and take me out of the obsession with this passing moment that culture and the Internet encourage. For this upcoming year, I want to work on mortifying my flesh such that I am more consumed with God than my own self. I want to be more fixed outwards, towards love of God and my neighbor, than trapped within my own insecurities and self-analysis. I want to place my talents, which are not my own but gifts I received from God, fully at His disposal so that I may be used for His glory and for the good of those around me. I am easily anxious about my career, my financial stability, my loneliness, and I want to give up that anxiety to God so that I put up no barriers to Him working through me. Humbled by how many blessings God has given me, as unworthy of them as I in myself am, I want to give freely without hoarding for myself, trusting that God will provide what I need.

The recent announcement that Pastor Wang Yi has been sentenced by the Chinese government to 9 years in prison for "inciting to subvert state power" provides a good opportunity to revisit his statement My Declaration of Faithful Disobedience published at the time of his arrest a year ago. Wang Yi's perspective - that he is not concerned so much about changing the world as about testifying about another world, "to tell those who have deprived me of my personal freedom that there is an authority higher than their authority, and that there is a freedom that they cannot restrain, a freedom that fills the church of the crucified and risen Jesus Christ" - is something I want to emulate in my own much more modest way in my interactions with the world.

On a related note, I want to recommend to all of you Terrence Malick's new film A Hidden Life, which is an excellent historical meditation on the difficult demands Christ makes of His servants, through the life of a man who consistently put faithfulness to God above the assertions of those around them that his actions were meaningless if they did not change the world. It's not getting as wide a release as it should, but if you have the opportunity to see it either in theaters or when it releases on BD, you should make every attempt to do so.

 

[guiloahhhhh]

Man, so many threads on this forum where I just think the OP.... Just needs Jesus. It's as simple as that. So much despair, loneliness, hopelessness, suicidal thoughts etc. And I don't feel comfortable even suggesting that on this forum. I would if I met any of them in real life.

Click to shrink...

Yep. Holy fuck man you see this so much in real life. Online it doesn't work as well but people are a lot more open and vulnerable in person. And not trying to take advantage of anyone. But in real life you can show how much you care and just offer your perspective for better or worse. Try to show them God's grace by listening and being there as a person.

 

[AbsoluteZero0K]

Oh nice. I'm finding all the OTs I'm interested in around these parts.

Man, so many threads on this forum where I just think the OP.... Just needs Jesus. It's as simple as that. So much despair, loneliness, hopelessness, suicidal thoughts etc. And I don't feel comfortable even suggesting that on this forum. I would if I met any of them in real life.

Click to shrink...

I agree with this. 100%. The despair and hopelessness feeds into itself. Some folks need hope. Need love.

A the same time, the marriage between Christianity and Neo-Conservatism, Trumpism, alt-right, has further expanded a rift between those who have been hurt by the Church, and those on its fringes. At least in the states. Actually, the West is becoming increasingly more secular as imperial-age Christian monopoly wanes.

Christianity is no longer potent as an ideology of control. so TPTB seems to be abandoning it. In our lifetimes, we will see Christianity become a minority religion as only the real believers will remain, rather than the snakes who profit from it. Jesus-flipped tables.

 

[AbsoluteZero0K]

Also: I am attempting a Daniel fast beginning tomorrow. WHEW!

 

[duckroll]

In our lifetimes, we will see Christianity become a minority religion as only the real believers will remain, rather than the snakes who profit from it.

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Very similar to what Pope Benedict XVI predicted the direction of the Church would go. Some quotes:

The future of the Church can and will issue from those whose roots are deep and who live from the pure fullness of their faith. It will not issue from those who accommodate themselves merely to the passing moment or from those who merely criticize others and assume that they themselves are infallible measuring rods; nor will it issue from those who take the easier road, who sidestep the passion of faith, declaring false and obsolete, tyrannous and legalistic, all that makes demands upon men, that hurts them and compels them to sacrifice themselves. To put this more positively: The future of the Church, once again as always, will be reshaped by saints, by men, that is, whose minds probe deeper than the slogans of the day, who see more than others see, because their lives embrace a wider reality. Unselfishness, which makes men free, is attained only through the patience of small daily acts of self-denial. By this daily passion, which alone reveals to a man in how many ways he is enslaved by his own ego, by this daily passion and by it alone, a man's eyes are slowly opened. He sees only to the extent that he has lived and suffered. If today we are scarcely able any longer to become aware of God, that is because we find it so easy to evade ourselves, to flee from the depths of our being by means of the narcotic of some pleasure or other. Thus our own interior depths remain closed to us. If it is true that a man can see only with his heart, then how blind we are!

and

Let us go a step farther. From the crisis of today the Church of tomorrow will emerge — a Church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so it will lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, it will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision. As a small society, it will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members. Undoubtedly it will discover new forms of ministry and will ordain to the priesthood approved Christians who pursue some profession. In many smaller congregations or in self-contained social groups, pastoral care will normally be provided in this fashion. Along-side this, the full-time ministry of the priesthood will be indispensable as formerly. But in all of the changes at which one might guess, the Church will find her essence afresh and with full conviction in that which was always at her center: faith in the triune God, in Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man, in the presence of the Spirit until the end of the world. In faith and prayer she will again recognize the sacraments as the worship of God and not as a subject for liturgical scholarship.

The Church will be a more spiritual Church, not presuming upon a political mandate, flirting as little with the Left as with the Right. It will be hard going for the Church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek. The process will be all the more arduous, for sectarian narrow-mindedness as well as pompous self-will will have to be shed.

 

[AbsoluteZero0K]

Yeah that sounds about right. Prophetic, even.

 

[duckroll]

HAPPY EPIPHANY EVERYONE!

 

[HosannaExcelsis]

Indeed, happy Epiphany. As the Magi looked to the star to guide them to Bethlehem, so let us look to Christ as the Morning Star to guide us to Himself.

Very similar to what Pope Benedict XVI predicted the direction of the Church would go. Some quotes:

The future of the Church can and will issue from those whose roots are deep and who live from the pure fullness of their faith. It will not issue from those who accommodate themselves merely to the passing moment or from those who merely criticize others and assume that they themselves are infallible measuring rods; nor will it issue from those who take the easier road, who sidestep the passion of faith, declaring false and obsolete, tyrannous and legalistic, all that makes demands upon men, that hurts them and compels them to sacrifice themselves. To put this more positively: The future of the Church, once again as always, will be reshaped by saints, by men, that is, whose minds probe deeper than the slogans of the day, who see more than others see, because their lives embrace a wider reality. Unselfishness, which makes men free, is attained only through the patience of small daily acts of self-denial. By this daily passion, which alone reveals to a man in how many ways he is enslaved by his own ego, by this daily passion and by it alone, a man's eyes are slowly opened. He sees only to the extent that he has lived and suffered. If today we are scarcely able any longer to become aware of God, that is because we find it so easy to evade ourselves, to flee from the depths of our being by means of the narcotic of some pleasure or other. Thus our own interior depths remain closed to us. If it is true that a man can see only with his heart, then how blind we are!

and

Let us go a step farther. From the crisis of today the Church of tomorrow will emerge — a Church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so it will lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, it will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision. As a small society, it will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members. Undoubtedly it will discover new forms of ministry and will ordain to the priesthood approved Christians who pursue some profession. In many smaller congregations or in self-contained social groups, pastoral care will normally be provided in this fashion. Along-side this, the full-time ministry of the priesthood will be indispensable as formerly. But in all of the changes at which one might guess, the Church will find her essence afresh and with full conviction in that which was always at her center: faith in the triune God, in Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man, in the presence of the Spirit until the end of the world. In faith and prayer she will again recognize the sacraments as the worship of God and not as a subject for liturgical scholarship.

The Church will be a more spiritual Church, not presuming upon a political mandate, flirting as little with the Left as with the Right. It will be hard going for the Church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek. The process will be all the more arduous, for sectarian narrow-mindedness as well as pompous self-will will have to be shed.

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Pope Benedict XVI is a wise man.

 

[DiscoShark]

I'm not a Christian but I think a part of me yearns for the sense of community and belonging a religious organization can provide. Is this a selfish outlook? I think of the church and religion as tools for providing me a service rather than something I feel I can honestly subscribe to and a part of me internalize that as something that's borderline disrespectful.

I've attended a friend's service in the last couple months and they seem to take a literal interpretation of the bible to heart, I have trouble reconciling that side of christianity with discoveries in science or my own personal views on LGBT issues. How do you guys handle these types of struggles?

Apologies if this isn't the space for this type of discussion. I tend to take the view of others in this thread that there seems to be a hostility in discussing these openly in the general Etcetera.

Thanks.

 

[DarkDetective]

I'm not a Christian but I think a part of me yearns for the sense of community and belonging a religious organization can provide. Is this a selfish outlook? I think of the church and religion as tools for providing me a service rather than something I feel I can honestly subscribe to and a part of me internalize that as something that's borderline disrespectful.

I've attended a friend's service in the last couple months and they seem to take a literal interpretation of the bible to heart, I have trouble reconciling that side of christianity with discoveries in science or my own personal views on LGBT issues. How do you guys handle these types of struggles?

Apologies if this isn't the space for this type of discussion. I tend to take the view of others in this thread that there seems to be a hostility in discussing these openly in the general Etcetera.

Thanks.

Click to shrink...

LGBT has been a difficult topic throughout the history of Christianity, or any religion, or mankind as a whole actually. Personally, I know a lot of LGBT people, including a couple Christian. I must say that I haven't talked a lot about the topic itself with them. Personally, I treat those people with respect. Even though I wouldn't say I like the phenomenon of LGBT - or think it is "good" per se -, regardless of how literally you take the Bible, those people must admit that God loves everyone and that faith in Him is what matters to Him.

God does not want us to sin; he despises sin. When the Israelites wanted to serve Him and do what is good in His eyes, He gave them the law of Moses. The goal of the law was not to punish those who coule not hold the law; He gave them this law to show them that no human can obey His law: everyone has sin. It's in our nature.

God sent His son, Jesus Christ, to the world to die for our sins, to conquer death, and to become the first to partake in a new life - with a new body and nature. One without sin.

When Jesus was on Earth, he said that the most important thing to do was to love God with all your heart, and after that, to love your neighbour as much as yourself (Matthew 22:36-40).
And that has always been the case: read through Hebrews 11. All those people that lived before Jesus came to the Earth, whether they lived before God gave Moses His law or during that period, Paul states in Hebrews 11 that it was their faith that has justified them for eternity.

If you believe in God, He will forgive all your sins. And if we believe in Jesus Christ and his resurrection, we has paid off our sins through His sacrifice, and we partake in His resurrection and get that position in heaven, and we'll get a new heavenly body without sinful nature after we die the earthly death.

Everyone has their fair share of sins. Gay people do, straight people do. No matter how much or how many sins you have, God is both Prosecutor and Judge, and if you place your trust in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, then God is also the Defendant, and He will wipe away your case before the heavenly court.

If you don't believe in Him, then apparently you think you can clean your sheet on your own. Well, good luck with that.

God is righteous, but merciful. Rather than sweeping away this sinful mess, He made a plan to save us from our own shortcomings. He came to the Earth, humiliated Himself by putting away his Divinity and becoming a human of flesh and bones like us (He's made us, and He's been just like us, so He knows what it feels like to be us!), and He sacrificed Himself to save everyone! Now that's power!

Unfortunately, claiming to represent the word of God creates a lot of supposed authority, and it has been misused by a lot of people throughout history and on various scales. There are still people who call themselves Christians, believe in Jesus Christ (apparently), but don't act like they do: they behave like they're trying to save themselves. Well, as I said earlier, good luck with that.

I highly recommend the book "Letters From A Skeptic" by Edward Boyd and Gregory Boyd. Maybe a local library has it for rent. It shows one Christian perspective (that I support, in most cases) on a lot of moral questions about why Christianity would be good/right/true. One of the two men is an agnost, who fires all of his questions about Christianity to the other, who is a Christian. I've learned a lot from that book.


About science, there are things that may not look compatible with the Christian world view, but also a lot of fundamental things where science actually supports the beliefs of Christianity and the existance of a higher entity.

I've started reading the book "The Language of God" by Dr. Francis S. Collins. He has the head of Human Genome Project and he's a Christian. In the book, he's laying down his world view, and he thinks Christianity and science are compatible. I've only started, so I don't have an opinion ready yet, but I found it interesting to have such a high profile scientist in biology (!) make a statement in favor of what some consider to be an unscientific world view.

I end the story here. Hopefully I've answered some questions and raised some new ones, in a satisfactory way. :)

 

[DiscoShark]

-stuff-

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It's funny that you should mention The Language of God as I'm a couple of chapters into the book as we speak. The author's made mention of C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity a lot in the first chapters as well so I have that checked out alongside it. I understand the appeal of it all I guess but have hang ups with some of the teachings themselves (or at least my perception of the teachings given my conversations with other christians - I've not read the bible myself).

I appreciate you taking the time to write out your response in any case so thanks a lot.
With regards to this line though:
"If you don't believe in Him, then apparently you think you can clean your sheet on your own. Well, good luck with that."

I don't think I can do it on my own. Increasingly I'm seeing the value of the connections with people in and of themselves - even if they're divorced from the dogma. I'm getting the sense that what's missing from secular life isn't so much the specific religious teachings so much as the church like institution, an excuse to get people out and interacting with their local community and to get advice about how to live a fulfilling life. Not to sound dismissive but it's the "baggage" I struggle with, not the idea in and of itself.

Thanks again for the response.

 

[HosannaExcelsis]

I'm not a Christian but I think a part of me yearns for the sense of community and belonging a religious organization can provide. Is this a selfish outlook? I think of the church and religion as tools for providing me a service rather than something I feel I can honestly subscribe to and a part of me internalize that as something that's borderline disrespectful.

Click to shrink...

That's understandable. Connections with others is a basic human need, one that goes unmet for many people, and a religious community such as a church is definitely a place where that need can be fulfilled. I don't think you're being selfish in having that yearning, except in as much as desiring food and sleep is selfish.

I do think the truth claims of Christianity (or other religions) are not irrelevant. There's a line of thought that says maybe religion isn't actually true, but it's socially useful and should be encouraged along those lines. I can't go along with that. I am a Christian because I believe Jesus Christ is the incarnate Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, who was crucified for my sins and rose from the dead. If none of that is true, Christianity has no reason to continue existing - the hope that it offers me would be a false hope built on a pack of lies. I agree with the Apostle Paul when he says, "If Christ did not rise from the dead, our faith is in vain."

That said, I don't think you need to agree to all the truth claims of Christianity or a particular local church to participate in its community. It would be disrespectful if you merely ridiculed the sincere beliefs of others, or if you pretended to believe things that you do not actually believe. But attending a church or going to church activities without being a Christian yourself? I don't think that's disrespectful at all. The church should minister to unbelievers as well as believers.

I've attended a friend's service in the last couple months and they seem to take a literal interpretation of the bible to heart, I have trouble reconciling that side of christianity with discoveries in science or my own personal views on LGBT issues. How do you guys handle these types of struggles?

Click to shrink...

I think "literal interpretation of the Bible" is a bit of a misleading phrase. I think even people who say they take the Bible "literally" would admit that there are many parts of it that are plainly not strictly literal but metaphorical, hyperbolic, or otherwise range over a large number of linguistic techniques. The Bible should be interpreted in its full context, just as any other piece of writing. I take the Bible as the authoritative and true Word of God, and to best understand it I interpret it literally when appropriate, figuratively when appropriate, and often both simultaneously. While I rely on the Bible as a daily source of comfort and guidance, there are passages of it I find challenging, and passages of it I can't say I entirely understand. But then, I don't think it could be the Word of God if I found it always easy to understand and accept. Any God worthy of the name has to be bigger than me, bigger than I can wrap my mind around, not smaller than me.

I would encourage you to read the Bible for yourself at some point - the Gospel of John is a good starting point. The Bible is a complex and interesting enough book that it's worth engaging with directly instead of merely listening to what other people have to say about it.

 

[Glimlocker]

I'm not a Christian but I think a part of me yearns for the sense of community and belonging a religious organization can provide. Is this a selfish outlook? I think of the church and religion as tools for providing me a service rather than something I feel I can honestly subscribe to and a part of me internalize that as something that's borderline disrespectful.

I've attended a friend's service in the last couple months and they seem to take a literal interpretation of the bible to heart, I have trouble reconciling that side of christianity with discoveries in science or my own personal views on LGBT issues. How do you guys handle these types of struggles?

Apologies if this isn't the space for this type of discussion. I tend to take the view of others in this thread that there seems to be a hostility in discussing these openly in the general Etcetera.

Thanks.

Click to shrink...

No, I don't believe that's a selfish view at all - so long as you're being respectful in disagreement or in observance of certain traditions.

Indeed, the LGBT has been tough for me, especially when I'm trying to find a church that provides a good place of comfort and expression for me, as I don't take a literal interpretation of the Bible.
So, I also have difficulties finding a good "fit" when it comes to churches.

It's a huge issue in the church with lots of perspectives. For example, the Methodist church now appears to be splitting into two denominations - one pro-LGBTQ and one against.
I think this will be a huge dividing factor in many protestant denominations in the next decade or two - I can't think of any mainline protestant denomination that hasn't at least whispered about splitting into two because of this issue.

All this to say, you far from alone, Christian or otherwise, in reconciling LGBTQ beliefs.

I would definitely encourage you to try to check out a church that may be closer to your beliefs, if there happens to be one around you!

I think "literal interpretation of the Bible" is a bit of a misleading phrase. I think even people who say they take the Bible "literally" would admit that there are many parts of it that are plainly not strictly literal but metaphorical, hyperbolic, or otherwise range over a large number of linguistic techniques.

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I think (hope) you're right that many Christians who claim to have a literal interpretation probably realize it's not all literal.
Not so the way I was brought up...many people I grew up around would find a way of "literally" interpreting everything.
But that might be partially attributed to a lack of education in literary terminology and critique.

Regardless, I had many arguments in college about this very subject, heh. Just thought I'd share my anecdotal experience, in case someone does encounter a person who staunchly opposes anything but a "literal" interpretation.

 

[DarkDetective]

It's funny that you should mention The Language of God as I'm a couple of chapters into the book as we speak. The author's made mention of C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity a lot in the first chapters as well so I have that checked out alongside it. I understand the appeal of it all I guess but have hang ups with some of the teachings themselves (or at least my perception of the teachings given my conversations with other christians - I've not read the bible myself).

Click to shrink...

This may sound weird to you as an outsider, but when people talk about "Christianity", usually what they mean with it can differ a lot. There's a very wide variety of interpretations and practices within Christianity as a whole. There are Roman Catholics, all kinds of orthodox churches, and an enormous amount of Protestant denominations, who all think about things slightly yet very different.

Usually, local churches have had a lot of cultural influence as well. The evangelical churches in my country, the Netherlands, share their fundamental core with the evangelical churches in the US, but they've developed away from each other over time, so they're also quiet different now.

Calvinism has had a big influence on Christianity in my country. As a result, across the entire Protestant spectrum, the vast majority of people here think you shouldn't work on Sunday, shops and even bars/restaurants should be closed on Sunday, whereas that may not be a shared belief with American or southern European believers at all. Meanwhile, I can't find a Biblical argument to support this line of thought. Now this is a common problem: people have started to mingle the Bible with cultural thoughts of what's right and wrong, and while those thoughts may come from a good heart, they've developed over generations into some sort of new law that is nowhere to be found in the Bible. And I would even go as far as to say that in more than a few cases, I'd say those practices actually violate what the Bible tells us to do. But then again, that's my interpretation of the Bible...

I recommend finding out for yourself. There's a free (and ad-free) Bible app by YouVersion in the App Store and Play Store with a lot of translations. Pick an easier one, such as the EasyEnglish 2018, and start reading the Book of Luke (don't worry, there's a search function in the app :P) from beginning to end. And after that, the Letter to the Romans, also from beginning to end. Luke tells about Jesus' life on Earth, whereas Romans is a great introduction to the consequences of Jesus' work on Earth for the daily life of people who believe in Him.

---

A more general question that I should've asked first, I guess, is: what is your world view? Do you believe a higher entity like God exists? Or could exist? Why? And is there a purpose to our lives? If you don't want to share it, that's fine of course; I'm just curious.

Personally, I found the book Letters From A Skeptic far more interesting with how it's treating moral issues that people may have with God than what I've read so far in The Language of God. However, the writers of LfaS don't talk about whether it's compatible with science as much as TLoG. There's a different focus. So if you can get that book for cheap - or for free somewhere -, I highly recommend it, because it's more about the actual contents of (one version of) the faith rather than 'the possibility that scientists cannot dismiss the existence of God'. TLoG feels more like a follow-up to me.

 

[duckroll]

I'm not a Christian but I think a part of me yearns for the sense of community and belonging a religious organization can provide. Is this a selfish outlook? I think of the church and religion as tools for providing me a service rather than something I feel I can honestly subscribe to and a part of me internalize that as something that's borderline disrespectful.

I've attended a friend's service in the last couple months and they seem to take a literal interpretation of the bible to heart, I have trouble reconciling that side of christianity with discoveries in science or my own personal views on LGBT issues. How do you guys handle these types of struggles?

Apologies if this isn't the space for this type of discussion. I tend to take the view of others in this thread that there seems to be a hostility in discussing these openly in the general Etcetera.

Thanks.

Click to shrink...

There is nothing disrespectful about getting help and support from a community that offers it out of love. It should not require you to force yourself to accept every belief to "earn" that belonging so to speak. Is it selfish? That's a different question and yes it is, but so are a lot of things we do. Selfishness is something that humans tend towards, and we are often looking out for our own interests. If you can acknowledge that it is selfish and not ideal, but also something that can't be forced at this present time because you don't quite believe, that's fine. Our self-awareness helps us to know where we are in life and in our communities, and being authentic in our relationships is more important than putting up a front for the sake of belonging.

I can't speak for how your friend's church would be like, but in general Christian communities centred on the love of Christ would be welcoming and understanding of those who are curious. There are many communities out there, so being attracted to want to be part of a particular one testifies to something more than it just being a community of people. What is it about these people and how they live their lives that makes them appealing to be around? What is this 'service' that the community provides that is helpful for your life? These would be good reflections to consider. Again, faith is a personal relationship with God and not something to be forced or something to pretend to subscribe to just to fit in. Doubts are largely healthy when exploring anything because doubts are the internal questions we want to ask - they point to answers we are seeking. Being cynical or close-minded isn't the same as having doubts.

Regarding Scripture, the Bible is the living word of God. There are many different ways to read the Bible, and it is one way that God speaks to us through ordinary means. A literal reading is sometimes helpful and even important to not lose sight of what the foundation is - if we reach too far into our own distant interpretation, it could easily turn into our own ego wanting the text to say what we want to hear. On the other hand, reading it too literally all the time doesn't give any room for the word of God to be a personal message to us. How I find that balance is from prayer and learning more about theology and spirituality so I have proper context to interpret stuff without straying simply into what I want to hear. As a Catholic I also try my best to have a good understanding of where the Church's teachings come from and why they are the way they are. When I have doubts or cannot agree with something, instead of arguing against it strongly like I used to do, I dig deeper to see the philosophy and history behind something so I have a full understanding of that perspective before denying it simply because a teaching seems inconvenient or out-dated for society today.

Any educated and thinking Christian will have questions and struggles in reconciling issues in the modern world with our beliefs - human rights, moral issues, legal issues, science, psychology, history, etc. What's helpful is that these struggles are not new, and more intelligent and qualified people have thought about these things and written about them. Obviously not everyone agrees with every conclusion, but seeing where others have approached the issues and asking whether we can relate to these conclusions on a personal level is a good place to start when trying to figure out what our personal stand should be.

I've struggled with Church teachings on contraception, masturbation, and LGBT support. I've wondered about how science fits into many aspects of Biblical text as I grew up too. I can't say that I have perfect answers for everything, but I have anyways found that there are strong elements of truth in any actual teaching - where things tend to go wrong in our world is the application of that teaching. Love has to come first and be our primary motivation for anything. So when people act out of love, there is respect for the dignity of others. When love isn't in the picture, judgmental and hurtful expressions push others away. We are witnesses for our faith and being bad witnesses keeps people away from God. After all, it is in others that we see the face of God.

Wrote more earlier but it got eaten by the server maintenance when I tried to post it, lol. Thankfully it managed to save a chunk of what I was writing before the servers went down!

 

[Deffers]

Since a lot of my religious practice has been more individual than communal, I do have a slightly different take on this. Not in disagreement with the other posters necessarily, but just literally bringing different things into view.

DiscoShark's view on the essential nature of human connection through social activities expressed by his emotional need is very critical to the expansion of the faith, actually. It's funny to think, but part of the very reason that Christianity spread far and wide was because, in a very real sense, the Christian community brought better "technology" for a social community than its competing religions. It's odd to think of it that way, and the mechanistic terms may feel like it's some kind of detraction, but what I mean by "technology" is like... techniques and processes. The Church's robust system of mutual aid in the beginning was crucially important. The care put forth by the earliest Christians within their community for the elderly, poor, sick, and weak was its greatest strength. By comparison, the Roman Imperial cult didn't do anything for its people other than demand attention, and the mystery schools had their sense of community come at a price by way of initiation (which is a much more trying ordeal than even the OG baptism of full submersion in a river-- and selective besides). The various pagan temple practices weren't much better at caring for people. Past the Pentecost, it's difficult to pin down the metaphysics of the events in an authoritative way across the centuries, which is part of why my analysis is predicated on this idea of social technology-- it's easier to wrap the head around. And let me be clear, social technology doesn't just mean, like... distribution of needed resources to the needy. It's stuff like mutual encouragement, support, validation. Stuff that helps people to be productive and/or functional. Is it selfish to want those things? I mean, yeah, maybe. It's also selfish to want food to eat. But it's kind of a prerequisite for selfless action too. It's wholly understandable selfishness. To survive without food is the stuff of saintly miracles. To survive without validation and support is just as much the stuff of saintly miracles.

Ultimately, I think the capability of producing effective social technology, if you want to think of it that way, is a prerequisite of a healthy church. And in fact, that a prerequisite for an organization that has effective social technology of any kind, church or no, is the presence of a sort of spiritual advancement. I actually think that a lot of churches these days are diminishing less out of the world becoming more secular and more out of the social technologies within the church not keeping up with modern challenges or outright regressing. It's easy to think of today as a godless and fallen time, but like... the Thirty Years' War was pretty not great. We don't really see that in the same light, but viewed from the perspective of social technologies breaking down, there are interrelations and differences to today that I think become really salient.

Anyways, that's my answer to that question.

In personal news, my copy of the Nag Hammadi scriptures came in. Been wanting to dig into that for a decade or so now. Also got a Bart Ehrman book. It's one of his pop-lit ones, though, just as an introductory thing, sadly. Don't worry, I know he overstates his case in the pop-lit stuff. I'm more into it for the lay of the land of Biblical textual criticism right now. It's kind of distressingly small though. Like... I expected it to be three or four times its actual thickness. By comparison, the Nag Hammadi scripture book is fully big-boy Bible sized. It includes commentary, so I guess that figures, but like. Dang. Paperback, though. I'll let you guys know what I think if you're interested.

 

[Deffers]

Hey sorry for the double post, but it's going to take an act of God right now to stop all-out war between two big nations today, so hey, just... if you've ever had a praying bone in your body, now would be the time.

 

[DarkDetective]

Wow, I never thought about how "the church" may not be keeping up with social technologies now like it used to. For a long time, the Roman Catholic Church was the religious ruler, so they were dictating a lot of social technology, which makes it easier to keep up with them, but after the "enlightenment", Christianity has become synonymous with conservatism for a lot of people. Whereas the early church was actually very progressive in its social norms and technologies.

Eye opener to me, Deffers. Now the big question that follows is how to translate this into action.

 

[duckroll]

I feel the Catholic Church uses technology pretty well though. There's stuff like EWTN, the Thomistic Institute has podcasts and talks on Soundcloud and Spotify, Bishop Robert Barron covers a lot of pop culture in his videos and makes really well produced documentaries on saint and other stuff, you can get daily mass readings and the divine office using the Universalis app, etc. On a more local scale, here in Singapore we have phone apps that provide daily mass readings and reflections from the Archbishop, information about mass timings and locations of every parish in the country, popular prayers, etc. There's also a recently launched streaming Catholic radio app. Catholics are very active on social media platforms too, and at least the social mission of the Church here in Singapore is also very active in using technology to reach out to those who need help, community, or just somewhere to have a conversation. Is it a case of not noticing what is already being done because of preconceptions? Or maybe not knowing where to look?

 

[Deffers]

I feel the Catholic Church uses technology pretty well though. There's stuff like EWTN, the Thomistic Institute has podcasts and talks on Soundcloud and Spotify, Bishop Robert Barron covers a lot of pop culture in his videos and makes really well produced documentaries on saint and other stuff, you can get daily mass readings and the divine office using the Universalis app, etc. On a more local scale, here in Singapore we have phone apps that provide daily mass readings and reflections from the Archbishop, information about mass timings and locations of every parish in the country, popular prayers, etc. There's also a recently launched streaming Catholic radio app. Catholics are very active on social media platforms too, and at least the social mission of the Church here in Singapore is also very active in using technology to reach out to those who need help, community, or just somewhere to have a conversation. Is it a case of not noticing what is already being done because of preconceptions? Or maybe not knowing where to look?

Click to shrink...

See, that's why I put "technology" in scare quotes. Most modern churches have effective multi-media presences , and some of the bigger ones have apps too. I think DarkDetective kinda picked up on what I meant.

See, the very way the church reached out to help its own members as well as the poor and sick can be thought of as a kind of technology-- not on an individual level, but on an organizational level. It was a technology that barely anybody else had. The loose network between churches that, as Paul shows us, was also organized towards mutual support buttressed these goals and aims to give the early Church something other people didn't get. The Imperial Cult in the Roman Empire, for example, was organized more towards taking than giving. Taking tribute, taking worship, you name it. A church that gave back the way the early Church did was, in and of itself, innovative.

So it's within this very specific perspective that I refer to "technology." If you're giving bread to the homeless the same way you did it back in 250 AD, but you're using a smartphone to do it, you're only employing new social technology in whichever specific sense you're leveraging the smartphone to distribute bread in a way you couldn't in 250 AD. Utilizing an online app to get mass timings out is a difference of scale, and not of kind, relative to, say, a bell tower in the parochial context of villages. Something like a meals on wheels program at the start of the age of the automobile alters the logistical realities behind charitable giving, so it has a bit of difference in kind going on, but not much.

That isn't to say none of the technology being leveraged in your examples is an advance. After all, the example of meals on wheels is pretty standard practice today-- and using digital communication does kind of alter the forms of organization. But these days everyone's leveraging new social technologies, because our world's changed in 2000 years. And it's within this context that I analyze the church's use of social technology; it's a matter of comparative advancement to the rest of society.

The physical technology of social media is sort of secondary-- because what's vital is the paradigmatic shift that enables. If that makes sense. A secular (and morally grey) example is how Amazon changes our relationship with products and shipping implicitly because it creates a new social technology. It has very little that its competitors don't have, tech-wise, but it brings that together to alter our relationship to consumption. In many ways, for the worse. The early Church was kind of like that-- it did things for people that implicitly changed their relationship to faith, and thereby brought them closer to God. In a lot of ways, it had LESS physical technology than its competitors. Greek temples were overly fond of creating mechanisms meant to simulate miracles. The early Church never went for that. It still managed to do things other faiths couldn't.

 

[Goya]

Listened to Rowan Williams' Being Christian and Being Disciples recently. Quick reads, highly recommended. On reading and interpreting the Bible, here's a good summary of what Williams says: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2014/08/12/rowan-williams-on-the-bible/

At the center of the Bible is Christ. He offers a kind of "christo-telic" reading of the Bible.

So that leads Williams to ask how do we discern a good interpretation? By looking to and at Jesus Christ. It leads to and finds its clarity in Jesus. In his light we read the rest of the Bible.

The Bible is to be read with one another, and not just alone. We listen to how others have heard and are hearing this Word about Jesus in the Bible.

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[Oblio]

Peace be 2 U!

 

[Oblio]

Praise

 

[duckroll]

Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum.

 

[Deffers]

Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum.

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You doing OK, duckroll? How've things been?
(I'm gonna be real I need to be better at liturgical Latin than I am).

 

[duckroll]

You doing OK, duckroll? How've things been?
(I'm gonna be real I need to be better at liturgical Latin than I am).

Click to shrink...

I'm doing pretty good. The Wuhan crisis is having an impact on a number of things here. The archdiocese has instructed that holy communion should only be received on the hand during this period, the holy water fonts in all parishes are covered as well, catechism classes were slated to start this weekend but have been suspended until at least 1st March now. Not much to do but to pray that this health crisis ends quickly and people feel safe again.

But hey, when things are out of our hands, we can still trust in the Lord.

Happy Feast of the Presentation of our Lord and the Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary!

 

[Deffers]

I'm doing pretty good. The Wuhan crisis is having an impact on a number of things here. The archdiocese has instructed that holy communion should only be received on the hand during this period, the holy water fonts in all parishes are covered as well, catechism classes were slated to start this weekend but have been suspended until at least 1st March now. Not much to do but to pray that this health crisis ends quickly and people feel safe again.

But hey, when things are out of our hands, we can still trust in the Lord.

Happy Feast of the Presentation of our Lord and the Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary!

Click to shrink...

Oh wow. Has Singapore been hit hard? Hopefully you'll be alright.

God willing, things will be well. I hope you stay safe, and happy Feast!

 

[duckroll]

Oh wow. Has Singapore been hit hard? Hopefully you'll be alright.

God willing, things will be well. I hope you stay safe, and happy Feast!

Click to shrink...

No we haven't been hit particularly hard, we're just very cautious about it. Better safe than sorry. There are 18 confirmed cases here, and they're all people from Wuhan or who travelled from Wuhan recently. Thankfully no local transmissions yet.

 

[Deffers]

No we haven't been hit particularly hard, we're just very cautious about it. Better safe than sorry. There are 18 confirmed cases here, and they're all people from Wuhan or who travelled from Wuhan recently. Thankfully no local transmissions yet.

Click to shrink...

Glad to hear you're not in much danger, and I hope it stays that way.

 

[Deffers]

Sorry to double-post, but my grandpa from last year is, I'm pretty sure, on his way out. He's decided to stop taking dialysis (which he kinda needed to live), so naturally he's not got long. He's not very comfortable right now-- he keeps having heavy breathing and anxiety and the such. Kinda hoping whoever frequents this thread could send some prayers his way, if nothing else. We've got some anxiety meds for him, we're doing the best we can with worldly means, don't you worry about that... but it's still hard. It's hard for him. He's not a religious man but he's very scared.

 

[HosannaExcelsis]

Sorry to double-post, but my grandpa from last year is, I'm pretty sure, on his way out. He's decided to stop taking dialysis (which he kinda needed to live), so naturally he's not got long. He's not very comfortable right now-- he keeps having heavy breathing and anxiety and the such. Kinda hoping whoever frequents this thread could send some prayers his way, if nothing else. We've got some anxiety meds for him, we're doing the best we can with worldly means, don't you worry about that... but it's still hard. It's hard for him. He's not a religious man but he's very scared.

Click to shrink...

I will pray for him, and the rest of your family.

 

[Deffers]

I will pray for him, and the rest of your family.

Click to shrink...

Thank you. Sincerely.

 

[duckroll]

Welp. Archbishop has officially decided to suspend all mass from tomorrow noon onwards. They are making plans now in the event this is drawn out, but we pray this coronavirus crisis can come to an end sooner rather than later. >_<

Sorry to double-post, but my grandpa from last year is, I'm pretty sure, on his way out. He's decided to stop taking dialysis (which he kinda needed to live), so naturally he's not got long. He's not very comfortable right now-- he keeps having heavy breathing and anxiety and the such. Kinda hoping whoever frequents this thread could send some prayers his way, if nothing else. We've got some anxiety meds for him, we're doing the best we can with worldly means, don't you worry about that... but it's still hard. It's hard for him. He's not a religious man but he's very scared.

Click to shrink...

I will keep him in my prayers. May the Lord have mercy and grant him grace in the time he has left.

 

[Auros01]

Sorry to double-post, but my grandpa from last year is, I'm pretty sure, on his way out. He's decided to stop taking dialysis (which he kinda needed to live), so naturally he's not got long. He's not very comfortable right now-- he keeps having heavy breathing and anxiety and the such. Kinda hoping whoever frequents this thread could send some prayers his way, if nothing else. We've got some anxiety meds for him, we're doing the best we can with worldly means, don't you worry about that... but it's still hard. It's hard for him. He's not a religious man but he's very scared.

Click to shrink...

I will pray for your Grandpa, as well. Sorry to hear about this.

 

[Deffers]

He's stopped waking up. He's not dead yet, last I heard (back home already), but I think it's the end soon. Thanks for all your prayers, guys. It was... a rough past couple days.

 

[DarkDetective]

He's stopped waking up. He's not dead yet, last I heard (back home already), but I think it's the end soon. Thanks for all your prayers, guys. It was... a rough past couple days.

Click to shrink...

Let's hope he'll have a sweet end without pain. His Lord is waiting for him. My condoleances, Deffers :(

 

[Deffers]

Let's hope he'll have a sweet end without pain. His Lord is waiting for him. My condoleances, Deffers :(

Click to shrink...

My mom actually helped him through the first Lord's Prayer he's said in..... like, seventy years. I think he's past pain now. The last thing we did was move him onto his bed and that was... harder than it was most of the previous days just because he'd become so weak. I felt bad because I felt like I was hurting him getting him on there because he wasn't able to help me as much himself as he had prior, so I ended up just trying to soothe him and tell him he was doing fine and I was proud of him. The position I left him in was the position we found him in yesterday morning when we headed home. I got woken up in the night by someone who wasn't there, so I'd like to think it was his angel.

My family tried yelling( let me be clear, it wasn't my idea and I wouldn't have done that and I don't recommend you do that to the dying) today to see if he'd respond at all. Nothing.

EDIT: It's over now. He's gone. God rest him. Thanks again, guys.

 

[HosannaExcelsis]

My mom actually helped him through the first Lord's Prayer he's said in..... like, seventy years. I think he's past pain now. The last thing we did was move him onto his bed and that was... harder than it was most of the previous days just because he'd become so weak. I felt bad because I felt like I was hurting him getting him on there because he wasn't able to help me as much himself as he had prior, so I ended up just trying to soothe him and tell him he was doing fine and I was proud of him. The position I left him in was the position we found him in yesterday morning when we headed home. I got woken up in the night by someone who wasn't there, so I'd like to think it was his angel.

My family tried yelling( let me be clear, it wasn't my idea and I wouldn't have done that and I don't recommend you do that to the dying) today to see if he'd respond at all. Nothing.

EDIT: It's over now. He's gone. God rest him. Thanks again, guys.

Click to shrink...

May light perpetual shine upon him, and may God comfort you and his family and friends.

 

[Firefoxprime]

Good to be back, and I spent the last month really reviewing how I live my life for Jesus. I think we're blessed with this space to discuss and share our experiences.

Especially on a platform like ERA. At best we're "tolerated", but I truly believe it's not our job to bible thump folks.

I think two areas we can shine is how we treat the people we know and don't know.

We have to let that love of Jesus flow. I have some great videos to share with you all, and I pray they will encourage you daily 👍😀. (Truth + Love)

Yup, I think you guys are gonna like these videos. Some will include pastor clips, music videos, and a couple secular satirical comedies on current events.

I hear you Deffers. I'm really sorry about your Grandpa passing. I'll be keeping your family in prayer, and I understand this is a new transition for you and your family.

 

[duckroll]

My mom actually helped him through the first Lord's Prayer he's said in..... like, seventy years. I think he's past pain now. The last thing we did was move him onto his bed and that was... harder than it was most of the previous days just because he'd become so weak. I felt bad because I felt like I was hurting him getting him on there because he wasn't able to help me as much himself as he had prior, so I ended up just trying to soothe him and tell him he was doing fine and I was proud of him. The position I left him in was the position we found him in yesterday morning when we headed home. I got woken up in the night by someone who wasn't there, so I'd like to think it was his angel.

My family tried yelling( let me be clear, it wasn't my idea and I wouldn't have done that and I don't recommend you do that to the dying) today to see if he'd respond at all. Nothing.

EDIT: It's over now. He's gone. God rest him. Thanks again, guys.

Click to shrink...

My deepest condolences.

Eternal rest grant onto him O Lord, and may the perpetual light shine on him.

Eternal rest grant onto him O Lord, and may the perpetual light shine on him.

Eternal rest grant onto him O Lord, and may the perpetual light shine on him.

May he rest in peace.

 

[P-Bo]

Guys, I'm currently unemployed and in desperate need of a job. I won't bore you all with details, but I can't understate how desperate I am, and how dire things may possibly get if something doesn't turn up soon. Would it be alright if I asked for prayer from here?

*EDIT* My condolences Deffers--may he rest with the Almighty in eternal peace.

 

[Firefoxprime]

Guys, I'm currently unemployed and in desperate need of a job. I won't bore you all with details, but I can't understate how desperate I am, and how dire things may possibly get if something doesn't turn up soon. Would it be alright if I asked for prayer from here?

*EDIT* My condolences Deffers--may he rest with the Almighty in eternal peace.

Click to shrink...

Absolutely P-Bo.

Dear Jesus, we know you are the God of miracles. We know you work in mysterious ways.

There are doors only you can close, and doors only you can open. Our friend here P-Bo needs help Jesus.

Your word, says "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."
Matthew 6:33 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.6.33.ESV

Your word also says: ""Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"
Matthew 7:7‭-‬11 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.7.7-11.ESV

We may not know P-Bo's relationship with you father God nor the specific details of this current situation, but he clearly has a need. Please dear Jesus use this heavy moment in P-Bo's life to draw him closer to you.

You're P-Bo's provider, protector, and redeemer. Allow him to sink deeper into your word. Allow P-Bo to apply your word to his life and give him comfort in your will for his life.

He needs you Jesus. Instead of operating out of fear, allow P-Bo to operate out of FAITH.

Help P-Bo to make the right choices that will honor you, and guide P-Bo through your holy spirit.

Please let this situation be a game changing testimony that P-Bo can share with his friends and family.

Because, when all is said and done. You get the glory father God. Let your will be done in P-Bo's life and continue to use P-Bo in the future to further your kingdom, AMEN!

 

[P-Bo]

Thank you brother. Even though circumstances are not great, your prayers are a true encouragement.