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Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,847
The main writer in Chrono Cross was one of the writers of Trigger, wasn't it?
Masato Kato was the main writer whereas Yuji Horii only penned the draft. Kato was the one responsible for the Zeal chapter of the game.

He was given a few months to make Radical Dreamers and then begged for years to make a sequel. He's one of the only ones who championed hard for the series to continue, he is definitely the father of the Chrono series.

He was also one of the only ones who wanted for the story to have real consequences instead of just having a purely happy ending:

There was also a time during a meeting when the idea of the main character dying came up, and the whole room suddenly burst into laughter. I seemed to be the only one who thought "That was a serious suggestion, what's so funny?" and sat looking blank. (laughs) Although at that point Mr Horī did say "Hey, that might be pretty interesting." Incidentally, the idea that I had at that time was for Crono to really die, and the others would have to go back in time and enlist a version of Crono from the night before the Fair. Then after the final battle they would have to return him to that point in time and bid him farewell. But that idea was rejected (laughs). They said it had to be a happy ending, so we eventually settled on the story with the clone as it is today.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I would say it's the opposite. The problem with TLJ (for me at least) is that it's far too similar to A New Hope, right down to the freaking desert planet and yet another Death Star ("but this one is different because it shoots at several planets at once, see?"). The problem most people have with Chrono Cross is that it's too different from Chrono Trigger.

Chrono Cross is such a great game, but it would be so much better if its budget hadn't been cut and the last 1/4 wasn't reduced to an infodump.

Edit: Yeah, I got TFA and TLJ mixed up.
 
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The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,419
I think Bioshock Infinite might be a better example. An enjoyable game that also tries to subvert expectations, like the villians' fates and how it begins in a happy carnival instead of a creepy desolate ward.
 

Deleted member 9714

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,882
Are we allowed to dislike TLJ on Gaming-side?

That's insulting to Chrono Cross, a production with actual care and ambition behind it, OP.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
But the main characters are far more developed than Trigger ever managed to. Serge, Kid, Lynx, Darius, Harle, Glenn, Radius, the Viper family, the generals, etc

Chrono cross like most of the JRPGs of the era "develops" its cast to about the point of a saturday morning cartoon or C list anime. This is hardly a selling point- the narrative is a mess, but that can be overlooked because this was typical for the time.

This is a weird hang-up, there are tons of NPCs in this world that you can recruit to your point, a lot of them have their own side stories to play that fleshes out the world. There is a ton of distinction. i don't understand using Suikoden as a point of comparison like they all play differently? They don't

Suikoden II's approach to using the FAR LARGER cast is flat out better. Virtually EVERYONE has their own side stories. Many have their own minigames (cooking, gambling) or establish shops and other resources if they're non-combatant. The more you recruit, the more expansive your castle becomes and the more effective your force is during large scale combat.

But more importantly, Suiko2 establishes that the recruitable cast are individuals that have strong and existing relationships with each other independently of the main hero. Different cast members respond DIFFERENTLY during story scenes depending on who is present, not just in the same way with a tiresome accent. Characters will develop unique combination attacks depending on who has a relationship with who. There are stat boosts that occur when (for instance) one character falls in battle that is close to another one.

Chrono Cross wastes the potential of it's cast to a staggering extent in comparison. There's barely a point to using the majority of the cast at all.

And again, Cross never established that they died, and even if they did, it's a story about hopping dimensions and trning back time. The consequences of Cross goes far beyond the life and death of a few people, they can all be resurrected or saved.

It doesn't establish anything. it implies and alludes to things but doesn't resolve much either way. it's bad narrative and bad game design.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,765
Chrono cross like most of the JRPGs of the era "develops" its cast to about the point of a saturday morning cartoon or C list anime. This is hardly a selling point- the narrative is a mess, but that can be overlooked because this was typical for the time.



Suikoden II's approach to using the FAR LARGER cast is flat out better. Virtually EVERYONE has their own side stories. Many have their own minigames (cooking, gambling) or establish shops and other resources if they're non-combatant. The more you recruit, the more expansive your castle becomes and the more effective your force is during large scale combat.

But more importantly, Suiko2 establishes that the recruitable cast are individuals that have strong and existing relationships with each other independently of the main hero. Different cast members respond DIFFERENTLY during story scenes depending on who is present, not just in the same way with a tiresome accent. Characters will develop unique combination attacks depending on who has a relationship with who. There are stat boosts that occur when (for instance) one character falls in battle that is close to another one.

Chrono Cross wastes the potential of it's cast to a staggering extent in comparison. There's barely a point to using the majority of the cast at all.



It doesn't establish anything. it implies and alludes to things but doesn't resolve much either way. it's bad narrative and bad game design.

Spot on.
 

AmbientRuin

Member
Apr 18, 2019
467
Atleast Star Wars is getting another entry to fix any problems with the last one. The Chrono series will never get the opportunity to fix Cross
 

Hydeus

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,496
France
Except that The Last Jedi was crap and Chrono Cross was amazing.

VnQ2CNW.gif
 

Ghostswillpass

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
239
Wow people really hate The Last Jedi. From someone that actually quite likes the film, I've always been confused about the overly dramatic hate thrown towards it.

Every time I try to have a conversation with someone who hates the film, I never really get a clear picture as to why it's seen as the worst thing that has ever existed. Conversations always turn to hyperbolic language and it never goes anywhere.

I think I just haven't kept up with the discourse, but are there some clear points of what people see is wrong with the film.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,721
The main writer in Chrono Cross was one of the writers of Trigger, wasn't it?

One of the writers on Chrono Trigger. Masato Kato principally wrote the 12,000 BC section of CT.

I stand by what I said. The events of CC have nothing to do with the original CT; and I do not acknowledge the retcons in subsequent versions of CT that have attempted to force these story links.

Likewise, I do not acknowledge the story of the Disney Star Wars Trilogy as part of the series canon; so the comparison is quite apt.

That being said, I actually quite like Chrono Cross as a game. It's a horrendous sequel to Chrono Trigger that has practically nothing to do with the original game (both in terms of gameplay and story/setting/characters), but it's a perfectly fine RPG in its own right.
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,034
I would say it's the opposite. The problem with TLJ (for me at least) is that it's far too similar to A New Hope, right down to the freaking desert planet and yet another Death Star ("but this one is different because it shoots at several planets at once, see?"). The problem most people have with Chrono Cross is that it's too different from Chrono Trigger.

Chrono Cross is such a great game, but it would be so much better if its budget hadn't been cut and the last 1/4 wasn't reduced to an infodump.
Uh...I think you mistook TLJ for Force Awakens.
 

Deleted member 7148

Oct 25, 2017
6,827
Chrono Cross and Chrono Trigger are both masterpieces in my mind. The Last Jedi... not so much.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,847
Chrono cross like most of the JRPGs of the era "develops" its cast to about the point of a saturday morning cartoon or C list anime. This is hardly a selling point- the narrative is a mess, but that can be overlooked because this was typical for the time.



Suikoden II's approach to using the FAR LARGER cast is flat out better. Virtually EVERYONE has their own side stories. Many have their own minigames. The more you recruit, the more expansive your castle becomes and the more effective your force is during large scale combat. Different cast members respond DIFFERENTLY during story scenes depending on who is present. Characters will develop unique combination attacks depending on who has a relationship with who. There are stat boosts that occur when (for instance) one character falls in battle that is close to another one.

Chrono Cross wastes the potential of it's cast to a staggering extent in comparison. There's barely a point to using the majority of the cast at all.



It doesn't establish anything. it implies and alludes to things but doesn't resolve much either way. it's bad narrative and bad game design.

This doesn't say much about anything...

Do they play distinctly in Suikoden though ? What do they add at a fundamental level that Chrono Cross lacks ? That they all matter ? Because not only they don't all matter, it isn't some kind of established goal that they *have* to matter when you employ a large cast.

You somehow think Suikoden II is the gold standard of everything when it is one (1) approach in a narrative that is built for it. Chrono Cross builds it to show different sides to a large cast of people and how they're living with the consequences of a world brought up with the actions that happened in Trigger. Saying it's saturday morning cartoon is meaningless, because just like Chrono Cross you're just dismissing them without any context.

It's more of a case of mismatched expectations than missing potential. You expect X when Cross was never about it and wants to talk about Y. Not the game's faults, and removing the cast's contributions doesn't make your point more salient
 
OP
OP
DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
I would say it's the opposite. The problem with TLJ (for me at least) is that it's far too similar to A New Hope, right down to the freaking desert planet and yet another Death Star ("but this one is different because it shoots at several planets at once, see?"). The problem most people have with Chrono Cross is that it's too different from Chrono Trigger.

Chrono Cross is such a great game, but it would be so much better if its budget hadn't been cut and the last 1/4 wasn't reduced to an infodump.

TLJ not TFA lmao
 

CollectedDust

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,044
Indiana
I'm an old guy, Star Wars fan long before the special editions were released.

I really like Last Jedi, and am seeing other posts that agree. I think this thread is just proving the OP's point in his comparison to CC.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
This doesn't say much about anything...

Do they play distinctly in Suikoden though ? What do they add at a fundamental level that Chrono Cross lacks ? That they all matter ? Because not only they don't all matter, it isn't some kind of established goal that they *have* to matter when you employ a large cast.

You somehow think Suikoden II is the gold standard of everything when it is one (1) approach in a narrative that is built for it. Chrono Cross builds it to show different sides to a large cast of people and how they're living with the consequences of a world brought up with the actions that happened in Trigger. Saying it's saturday morning cartoon is meaningless, because just like Chrono Cross you're just dismissing them without any context.

It's more of a case of mismatched expectations than missing potential. You expect X when Cross was never about it and wants to talk about Y. Not the game's faults, and removing the cast's contributions doesn't make your point more salient

On the contrary, Suiko 2 isn't the gold standard- You can look at other games released since then (say, Radiata Stories) that do the job better. I chose suiko 2 because it's a PS1 RPG, like Chrono Cross is- so the comparison is fair.

The point isn't "that they all matter" the point is HOW that cast is used. Suiko 2 uses it's large cast for a lot more than battle filler, and when it does use them that way the implementation is more complex.

Chrono Cross' implementation of it's 45 member or so cast is poor in comparison, despite undoubtedly having a MUCH larger budget.
 
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Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,404
The English Wilderness
Naw, it's (appropriately) the FFVIII of Star Wars: well regarded, with some of the best writing and characterisation of the franchise, but loathed by a vocal minority of fanboys convinced they're more representative of the general public than they actually are.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
best writing and characterisation of the franchise

Have you played it? There is zero characterization, character growth, and the story is a nonsensical mess. The entire narrative is inconsequential and the big reveal at the end is FF8 levels of dumb.

For CC to even make remotely any sense they had to rerelease Trigger and retcon it's ending.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,847
On the contrary, Suiko 2 isn't the gold standard- You can look at other games released since then (say, Radiata Stories) that do the job better. I chose suiko 2 because it's a PS1 RPG, like Chrono Cross is- so the comparison is fair.

The point isn't "that they all matter" the point is HOW that cast is used. Suiko 2 uses it's large cast for a lot more than battle filler, and when it does use them that way the implementation is more complex.

Chrono Cross' implementation of it's 45 member of so cast is poor in comparison, despite undoubtedly having a MUCH larger budget.

Chrono Cross uses its cast for narrative and theming reasons. They all work together to flesh out this world and all the conflicting ideologies behind it. It uses it well if you take the time to engage with it, seeing characters in both worlds acts differently puts a lot of things in perspective that wouldn't happen otherwise.

NPCs are the most important device in Chrono Cross, and it's a brilliant one. Getting so absurdly hung-up about them just because you recruit them (recruitment in itself matters! because decisions have consequences and that is why new game + is in itself a narrative device in the story!) feels short-sighted about the why and how of the scope of Chrono Cross. Suikoden 2 isn't on this level just because you unlock things with them. The element of reward isn't necessary and doesn't necessarily make it a better implementation.
 

Alastor3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,297
I was expecting a huge analysis before entering this thread and OP only delivered 2 paragraphs, this is sad
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,784
Brazil
People hates Chrono Cross because it's not Trigger. Never heard any opinion about Cross being a bad game by itself.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,847
Have you played it? There is zero characterization, character growth, and the story is a nonsensical mess. The entire narrative is inconsequential and the big reveal at the end is FF8 levels of dumb.

The entire narrative is one of consequence though ? Chrono Trigger is inconsequential, there is nothing lost in your adventure, everything can be fixed.

Literally the *first* thing that Cross does is put its foot on the table and say there WERE consequences of a magnitude that is above us.
 

Ghostswillpass

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
239
Naw, it's (appropriately) the FFVIII of Star Wars: well regarded, with some of the best writing and characterisation of the franchise, but loathed by a vocal minority of fanboys convinced they're more representative of the general public than they actually are.

I think you just hit the nail on the head there.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
Chrono Cross uses its cast for narrative and theming reasons. They all work together to flesh out this world and all the conflicting ideologies behind it. It uses it well if you take the time to engage with it, seeing characters in both worlds acts differently puts a lot of things in perspective that wouldn't happen otherwise.

NPCs are the most important device in Chrono Cross, and it's a brilliant one. Getting so absurdly hung-up about them just because you recruit them (recruitment in itself matters! because decisions have consequences and that is why new game + is in itself a narrative device in the story!) feels short-sighted about the why and how of the scope of Chrono Cross. Suikoden 2 isn't on this level just because you unlock things with them. The element of reward isn't necessary and doesn't necessarily make it a better implementation.

you're addressing me like I haven't played Chrono Cross. I know how the cast is used in a narrative sense, and even there it isn't good.

Suiko 2 ALSO uses it's cast for narrative and theming purposes- though the narrative and themes are different. Taking both at face value, the narrative in Suiko 2 is flat out stronger as well, but a lot of that may be up to personal taste. Though there is a reason Suiko 2 still shows up on "best of" RPG lists routinely despite having been released in 1998, while Chrono Cross does not.

HOW you use a "cast of thousands" type RPG (which CC is, and Suiko is, and Radiata is) matters in terms of how good a game it is. Two of those three games do interesting and complex things with a cast of dozens, from a gameplay, worldbuilding, and battle standpoint. The other one uses the majority of the cast as battle filler and little else- despite having the smallest cast to work with.

If you feel that Chrono Cross is "brilliant" from a narrative and gameplay standpoint using that cast- well, there's not much to discuss here. I doubt we'll see eye to eye.
 
OP
OP
DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Have you played it? There is zero characterization, character growth, and the story is a nonsensical mess. The entire narrative is inconsequential and the big reveal at the end is FF8 levels of dumb.

For CC to even make remotely any sense they had to rerelease Trigger and retcon it's ending.

Uhhh, you're the one who don't seem to have played it. Radius alone has more characterization and character growth than the entire playable cast of CT combined. Like, it isn't even funny.

But hey, if you think Crono and Ayla had more character growth in CT then I would love to hear your arguments.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
Naw, it's (appropriately) the FFVIII of Star Wars: well regarded, with some of the best writing and characterisation of the franchise, but loathed by a vocal minority of fanboys convinced they're more representative of the general public than they actually are.

Oh, I love this.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,847
you're addressing me like I haven't played Chrono Cross. I know how the cast is used in a narrative sense, and even there it isn't good.

Suiko 2 ALSO uses it's cast for narrative and theming purposes- though the narrative and themes are different. Taking both at face value, the narrative in Suiko 2 is flat out stronger as well, but a lot of that may be up to personal taste. Though there is a reason Suiko 2 still shows up on "best of" RPG lists routinely despite having been released in 1998, while Chrono Cross does not.

HOW you use a "cast of thousands" type RPG (which CC is, and Suiko is, and Radiata is) matters in terms of how good a game it is. Two of those three games do interesting and complex things with a cast of dozens, from a gameplay, worldbuilding, and battle standpoint. The other one uses the majority of the cast as battle filler and little else- despite having the smallest cast to work with.

If you feel that Chrono Cross is "brilliant" from a narrative and gameplay standpoint using that cast- well, there's not much to discuss here. I doubt we'll see eye to eye.

But you keep mischaracterizing the characters as being nothing else than battling. That's my issue. We could talk about the characters and how they matter or we are running in circles with me constantly explaining how they matter more than this. Which isn't even a point worth debating, they do matter at a macro and micro level, just see Skelly or Van for characters that don't have an incidence in the main plot.

We definitely won't see eye to eye if a best of list is somehow a metric of anything in any way.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,888
eh...not on board with this. Chrono Cross is an OK game but a terrible sequel to Chrono Trigger.

Chrono Cross followed up what was at the time a pretty good time travel story, but ditched the time travel aspect entirely for a cross dimensional narrative.
The original cast barely makes an appearance, and when they do it was in a throwaway scene that implies they either died or came to a bad end.

from a gameplay perspective, Chrono Trigger attempts to do the "cast of thousands" bit with a staggeringly huge party- but screws it up. There's little distinction between party members other than saying the exact same thing in a different silly accent. Compare this to how Suikoden 1 and 2 handle the same approach with larger casts- Chrono Cross' approach looks lazy and poorly thought out.

And Ye gods- trying to get the true ending without a walkthrough was a nightmare. This is not a game I look fondly on.
Yeah that's pretty much how I feel. For positives the story was ok, the graphics were great and the music was legitimately good but the gameplay was just not good and it just doesn't hold a candle to Chrono.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
The entire narrative is one of consequence though ? Chrono Trigger is inconsequential, there is nothing lost in your adventure, everything can be fixed.

Literally the *first* thing that Cross does is put its foot on the table and say there WERE consequences of a magnitude that is above us.

They had to re-release Trigger years after Cross and retcon Triggers ending for Cross to even begin to make sense.

That's inconsequential.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
The Last Jedi is a perfect movie. I should play Chrono Cross. I didn't even like the first game that much so I am not biased.
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
Ishida , you're needed here as the other resident Chrono Cross fan. We can't have a CC thread without you my dude. Plus you'll say what i'd say in better words.