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Jenoss

Member
Oct 26, 2017
436
These are your own words. You're assuming in both instances that "the authors" will be against casting a non-white actress as Ciri.


P.S. Sometimes it's better to just let go instead of having the last word in an argument.

I didn't assume that they will be angry, i assumed that they would have the right to be.
Can't you understand the difference?

You are really searching a way in? Sometimes is better to read clearly the words, instead of search what you are looking for on them.
 

Deleted member 11093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,095
I didn't assume that they will be angry, i assumed that they would have the right to be.
Can't you understand the difference?

You are really searching a way in? Sometimes is better to read clearly instead to search what you are looking for on them.
"I was just assuming that they'll have the right to have an opinion!"

What on earth are you going on about? Are you seriously moving goal posts?
 

Jenoss

Member
Oct 26, 2017
436
"I was just assuming that they'll have the right to have an opinion!"

What on earth are you going on about? Are you seriously moving goal posts?


I lost completly the point of your reply on there.

Our talk is derailing, if you want, send me a pm and we can continue this talk.
Otherwise it would be great to just stay on topic, thanks.
 

formatnone

Member
Oct 31, 2017
270
Lithuania
if Roach will be a male white horse, i'm not watching this.

/s

really don't care about race of cast, i just hope that writing and acting will be good, and that's where i have my doubts...especially writing.
 

Jenoss

Member
Oct 26, 2017
436
i can't say this particularly bothers me. i was fine with black Nick Fury, i'm fine with the prospect of a black/asian Ciri. if they're well written and accurate to their personalities within the book, who cares.


Nick Fury on the Ultimate universe is black anyway, and in my opinion is relevant and greatly represented even on the movies!
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
I've yet to see a logical reason for opposing a BAME Ciri. I can give you a logical reason for supporting it: the real world is a diverse place, this isn't just a show for white people, it's for all people. Medieval Europe was a bit more diverse than commonly believed which seems to be the backdrop for a lot of these fantasy series. Also, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Ciri's skin color is highly important to her character, no one has provided it yet. It's also a bit strange that people suddenly bring up this Polish ethnicity and Polish folklore bit when it's about a BAME Ciri but a British dude playing Geralt doesn't get the same backlash.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,489
He deeply worries about her, but he's shown having problems when it comes to properly coping with certain emotions. I honestly can't imagine book Geralt coming up with that kind of idea, but maybe that's just me.

The scene where they wreck havoc with Avallach's lab, or when they go to Skellige or Velen to solve her unfinished business seemed much more in-character to me.
It might be a little too energetic, but I think it works because Geralt is a simple boy and that's a very simple solution to a complex problem.
Honestly, it doesn't even register on the chart of questionable choices made by CD Projekt Red when Video Game Geralt can choose to drag Ciri to see her monster of a father because there's money to be made from it.
 

KORNdog

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
8,001
Nick Fury on the Ultimate universe is black anyway, and in my opinion is relevant and greatly represented even on the movies!

i know. but the change still happened within the comics. a character that was, up until that point, very very white...was suddenly made black. all i'm saying is i didn't mind the change. i'm not sure why anyone would. who a character is isn't dictated by their Melanin imo.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
It might be a little too energetic, but I think it works because Geralt is a simple boy and that's a very simple solution to a complex problem.
Honestly, it doesn't even register on the chart of questionable choices made by CD Projekt Red when Video Game Geralt can choose to drag Ciri to see her monster of a father because there's money to be made from it.

That doesn't really describe what happens, Geralt lets Ciri know that Emhyr wishes to see her, and then asks Ciri what she wants to do, then Ciri puts it back to you to make the decision whether to see him or not. Taking the money is actually considered a pretty major negative based on how the quest was written and how it can affect the ending. I get that Emhyr seems to have changed quite a bit between who he was in the books and in the games though.
 

Bulby

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,038
Berlin
Who were Ciri's biological parents? I forget cause at least 3 people during the Witcher 3 claim to have raised her or call her a daugter.
 

Red Devil

Member
Oct 29, 2017
824
I don't really mind whoever would play Ciri, and hopefully most people would share the same sense. Hopefully.
 

aevanhoe

Slayer of the Eternal Voidslurper
Member
Aug 28, 2018
7,329
here, lemme help you out a teeny tiny bit. This was in the OP, and it was really big, but I can understand why it might be easy to miss.

Yes, I saw it, no need for teenu tiny help :) And of course she's going to say something like that, I just question her sincerity. Saying something on twitter does not make things true. But if what she's saying is the truth - it was a creative, artistic story-comes-first choice (like she says) - I support it 100%, no question.

I just can't really take her for her word and will have to see the show first. I'm somehow both sceptical and optimistic at the same time! :)
 

aevanhoe

Slayer of the Eternal Voidslurper
Member
Aug 28, 2018
7,329
I've yet to see a logical reason for opposing a BAME Ciri. I can give you a logical reason for supporting it: the real world is a diverse place, this isn't just a show for white people, it's for all people. Medieval Europe was a bit more diverse than commonly believed which seems to be the backdrop for a lot of these fantasy series. Also, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Ciri's skin color is highly important to her character, no one has provided it yet. It's also a bit strange that people suddenly bring up this Polish ethnicity and Polish folklore bit when it's about a BAME Ciri but a British dude playing Geralt doesn't get the same backlash.

I'm really not opposing it, it just seems like following some established patterns to me. I mean, why not a black Geralt? (I'm not being sarcastic, I ask honestly). Would that be too much? Why? It's always the secondary main character that gets somehow changed (race or sex). If you really want representation, go full way, make a bold statement. Like this, I just can't shake the feeling it's just to cross off some requirement and be done with it.

But, maybe it's really thought out and in that case, I'm really for it. Trully I am.

Edit: I just remembered Dr Who, so there are some good examples. And the Idris Elba/James Bond example I mentioned earlier, which I'm still rooting for!
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
I guess.... but that's also like saying Ciri is a slavic princess so she can't be black, isn't it? The story can be changed.

Anyway, I'm done - I'll excitedly wait for the show and see how it turns out.
He's called the white wolf and is a pale albino. While it's true they could change his character to be different, they figured they would stick to the race of the character on this character and have more liberties with another. This isn't "filling a quota" or just deciding they're going to do an all black cast or Witcher. It's the writers saying they want representation. You don't need to go all in.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,489
i know. but the change still happened within the comics. a character that was, up until that point, very very white...was suddenly made black. all i'm saying is i didn't mind the change. i'm not sure why anyone would. who a character is isn't dictated by their Melanin imo.
The catch here is that the change happened in an alternate universe imprint with a gimmick of radically reinventing familiar characters.
Ultimate Nick Fury doesn't just look different, he was basically a brand new character, and then he became another one when his design changed from a black James Bond to Literally Samuel L. Jackson.

That doesn't really describe what happens, Geralt lets Ciri know that Emhyr wishes to see her, and then asks Ciri what she wants to do, then Ciri puts it back to you to make the decision whether to see him or not. Taking the money is actually considered a pretty major negative based on how the quest was written and how it can affect the ending. I get that Emhyr seems to have changed quite a bit between who he was in the books and in the games though.
Sure, you don't exactly "drag" her there, but still, you can roleplay a Geralt who cons Ciri into going there because he secretly wants to get paid and, negative or not, that's just an inconceivable heel turn for Geralt to make.
There's also a huge issue with the way CD Projekt Red presented their changes to the timeline - you're never actually told how different Emhyr is in the games, so when you're first presented with that choice, it's like opening a can of worms from different timelines, and it's up to you to mentally cross out parts of what you thought you knew about Ciri's pre-Witcher 3 backstory.
 

Mitchman1411

Member
Jul 28, 2018
635
Oslo, Norway
I guess.... but that's also like saying Ciri is a slavic princess so she can't be black, isn't it? The story can be changed.

That Ciri is not white makes perfect sense considering Pavetta, her mother, is from a southern province bordering a desert. Quite frankly, I think the author of the books might have intended her to not be white but didn't due to how that would be perceived in Poland. Now he can finally change it for a larger audience to more accurately reflect her family inheritance.
 

KORNdog

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
8,001
The catch here is that the change happened in an alternate universe imprint with a gimmick of radically reinventing familiar characters.
Ultimate Nick Fury doesn't just look different, he was basically a brand new character, and then he became another one when his design changed from a black James Bond to Literally Samuel L. Jackson.

and yet Cap n Co stayed practically the same...to me he was just a black nick fury. same character, same principles...the dude just arbitrarily was made black for the new ultimate universe, but i never had any issues with it. i'm a-ok with ciri being non-white too, even if the change is also arbitrary. it's not an important enough "character trait" to care.

same goes for MJ being black in the new spiderman films, or human torch being black in the latest fantastic 4, or valkyrie being black in ragnorak etc. i don't see any reason why people wouldn't accept the changes...besides the obvious of course.

it does raise a question though. if they made a blade 4 with a good, solid black supporting cast, would everyone be ok with them arbitrarily making blade white? again i don't think i'd personally care, but some people might?
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,489
That Ciri is not white makes perfect sense considering Pavetta, her mother, is from a southern province bordering a desert. Quite frankly, I think the author of the books might have intended her to not be white but didn't due to how that would be perceived in Poland. Now he can finally change it for a larger audience to more accurately reflect her family inheritance.
I don't think Sapkowski gave any consideration to skin tones back then, as even the most "exotic" foreigners in his stories were fair-haired maidens.
Also, Calanthe is described as white (not just pale, "white" white) and the rest of her line looked a lot like her, so... nah.
 

GrooveAddict

Member
Nov 8, 2017
45
This is not good, if it is based on the books as they said, Ciri shouldn't even appear in the first season, unless they skip the best parts of the books which are the short stories, if anything she should just appear as an eight years old girl (when she first met Geralt) in the last episode not a 15-16 years old like the cast describes.
1&2 books >>>>>>>>> the rest of the saga
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
This is not good, if it is based on the books as they said, Ciri shouldn't even appear in the first season, unless they skip the best parts of the books which are the short stories, if anything she should just appear as an eight years old girl (when she first met Geralt) in the last episode not a 15-16 years old like the cast describes.
1&2 books >>>>>>>>> the rest of the saga
They could easily cast a random kid for a short scene/flashback and then have her be older later. Why is the assumption that they are going to do a faithful 1:1 adaptation of the short story collections vs using the books (and part of the games) to write their own story with these characters and worlds?
 

CastorKrieg

Banned
Jul 5, 2018
272
As a Polish person I can't say I like the decision - it messes up with the source material for the sake of political correctness. However I understand how in the current climate that is a necessary evil.
 

GrooveAddict

Member
Nov 8, 2017
45
They could easily cast a random kid for a short scene/flashback and then have her be older later. Why is the assumption that they are going to do a faithful 1:1 adaptation of the short story collections vs using the books (and part of the games) to write their own story with these characters and worlds?

I remember that the show runner mentioned in one of her tweets that Ezzy Daven will appear, she just appeared in one of the short stories.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
As a Polish person I can't say I like the decision - it messes up with the source material for the sake of political correctness. However I understand how in the current climate that is a necessary evil.
None of the characters in the book are Polish. It isn't changing anything.

It is not a necessary evil, simply make your own new character or race bend a minor already existing one.
Ah yes, dont' change the race of the lead to better reflect society as it is today. Only do it to a minor character. Can't show society as it really is in our leads.

Btw "race bending" is an offensive alt-right term used by white power media YouTubers like Grace Randolph.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
The books are deeply rooted in the Slavic culture and the world is similar to the early Middle Ages in Eastern Europe + magic. That was a known fact from the moment the books were written.
It's fantasy. None of it takes place in Poland. None of the characters are Polish. Poland doesn't have magic and fantasy creatures either. Changing a race is far less of a "change" than all the fantasy elements in the story. Not to mention the author is 100% on board her not being white.


The world is becoming far less white every day. It's the moral obligation of fantasy and sci-fi media to reflect this. It's not going to change. By 2045 America will no longer be majority white, and with that the majority of media to come out of American TV and Film (and this show is an American production) will no longer have majority white casts anymore.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
Ah yes, cause these authors can truly voice their opinion without being murdered on twitter and journalist sites with countless articles if they speak against it.
So the argument is the author is secretly racist (and yes, being angry about a character not being white is absolutely an argument based in racism) but doesn't want to be attacked for it? That's conspiracy theory nonsense. He says he is on board so we should take him at his word.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,339
The books are deeply rooted in the Slavic culture and the world is similar to the early Middle Ages in Eastern Europe + magic. That was a known fact from the moment the books were written.
In the books the characters literally don't speak Polish, yes it's inspired by parts of the slavic mythos that existed at the time but wasn't the sole influence of the series, many of the stories were twists on classic fairytales.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
If the argument was "needs to be true to slavic culture and roots" then there should have been outrage about Cavill being cast because he is clearly not Slavic or Polish in the slightest.

But there wasn't this much outrage, not even close. That is just proof the "slavic/polish culture" argument is 100% complete nonsense. It is just cover to complain about a character not being white.
 

Bernd Lauert

Banned
May 27, 2018
1,812
When I think of Ciri I think of the one from the games. We'll see how this plays out, makes no sense to have a discussion before the casting even happened.
 
Jun 7, 2018
472
All this bullshit over changing the ethnicity of a character. The only thing that should matter is essence of that character and how that character affects the world. Her color has nothing to do with the way she does that and shouldn't matter in the slightest. If her color was so important maybe they would have emphasized it in the books, but from what I can tell they touched on it once and that's it.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,489
It's fantasy. None of it takes place in Poland. None of the characters are Polish. Poland doesn't have magic and fantasy creatures either. Changing a race is far less of a "change" than all the fantasy elements in the story. Not to mention the author is 100% on board her not being white.
As far as we know, the author is on board with diversifying the setting, he hasn't spoken (or been quoted) publicly regarding any specific character changes.
 

Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
If the argument was "needs to be true to slavic culture and roots" then there should have been outrage about Cavill being cast because he is clearly not Slavic or Polish in the slightest.

But there wasn't this much outrage, not even close. That is just proof the "slavic/polish culture" argument is 100% complete nonsense. It is just cover to complain about a character not being white.
Exactly. The outrage being so damned disproportionate speaks volumes about the true intention behind it.
 

MajinArekkusu

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
427
Germany
So the argument is the author is secretly racist (and yes, being angry about a character not being white is absolutely an argument based in racism) but doesn't want to be attacked for it? That's conspiracy theory nonsense. He says he is on board so we should take him at his word.

So we are at the point where wanting to have a character stay as it was created/designed has to be racist now?
 

7Z7

Member
May 30, 2018
159
User Banned (1 Week): Racism, dismissive of diversity efforts
I'm not a big fan when you don't respect an original work to adapt to today's society by offering what seems to be a quota to be respected to please everyone.

Beyond The Witcher, I see original characters seeing their origins modified. We see female heroes from DC Comics becoming transsexuals, characters becoming black or Asian. It gives too much of an impression of wanting to give oneself a good image to please society.

Instead of modifying characters like we do with Ciri or like MJ in Spider Man which goes from redhead to black, why don't we create new characters? We often talk about changing the ethnicities of well-known heroes, but we never talk about the possibility of creating a new black or LGBT superhero or whatever. The imagination is infinite then instead of wanting to change absolutely everything that is already invented, let's create new characters. Heroes like Black Panther, I ask for more of them because they are so incredible.

Moreover, the opposite effect is never mentioned: How would the world react if Black Panther became white?

Anyway, I look forward to seeing the result even if adaptations of this kind are never a great success. Maybe Netflix will do a better job of it.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
So we are at the point where wanting to have a character stay as it was created/designed has to be racist now?
Yes because where was the outrage when the non-slavic was cast with Cavill?

It's only because she won't be white that people started ranting. It's racism even as people try to deflect and hide it.

Exactly. The outrage being so damned disproportionate speaks volumes about the true intention behind it.
Yup. People are trying to pretend like it's only about being true to the books/wanting to stick to slav roots.

But they didn't complain when Cavill was cast. They deserve to get called on their racist hypocrisy. But most can see right through it.

You can get away with this spin on Reddit, but not here. On era you will get called out for the racist nonsense.
 
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metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
I'm not a big fan when you don't respect an original work to adapt to today's society by offering what seems to be a quota to be respected to please everyone.

Beyond The Witcher, I see original characters seeing their origins modified. We see female heroes from DC Comics becoming transsexuals, characters becoming black or Asian. It gives too much of an impression of wanting to give oneself a good image to please society.

Instead of modifying characters like we do with Ciri or like MJ in Spider Man which goes from redhead to black, why don't we create new characters? We often talk about changing the ethnicities of well-known heroes, but we never talk about the possibility of creating a new black or LGBT superhero or whatever. The imagination is infinite then instead of wanting to change absolutely everything that is already invented, let's create new characters. Heroes like Black Panther, I ask for more of them because they are so incredible.

Moreover, the opposite effect is never mentioned: How would the world react if Black Panther became white?

Anyway, I look forward to seeing the result even if adaptations of this kind are never a great success. Maybe Netflix will do a better job of it.

lmao I was kind of taking you seriously until this nonsense as if changing one of the few black superheroes to another ethnicity is anything remotely similar to the overwhelmingly white rest of fiction