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sleepnaught

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,538
the murderer isn't in prison because of America's collective """skepticism""" towards racism while this woman was cleared and offered her job back
I hear you, but these are two very different cases. In Eric Garner's case, we have a clear case of systematic racism. You're absolutely right that a large(probably a majority) segment of the population will always dismiss valid claims of racism. However, in this case, there was information from the start that suggested her actions had nothing to do with their race, but their prior "dine and dash" history. We should always believe victims of racism, but at the same time, if there is evidence to the contrary, it should be explored. Otherwise, you're just trading one victim for another.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,196
The thing I don't get about this story is that going back to watch the original video she says exactly why they were denied service without payment first, that "they never have money when they come in here" and she obviously says it with some familiarity towards the people rather than as a racial thing. They were lucky to not be immediately asked to leave if that's the case.

There doesn't need to be some deep critical thinking about most of these things. Usually videos like this are blatant examples of racism but people took quite the leap to come to that conclusion here. Feel sorry for the woman just doing her job.

That is another thing people seem to overlook or ignore. The video itself is what caused some people to be skeptical, when the black people were accused of dining and dashing and their response to the accusation seemed...strange, if not flippant and trolly. That for me is when I took a step back and thought, hmm, I'll wait before I comment any further. I went into the thread with a bias that yeah, Chipoltle was probably being racist, because I'm a black man, I know how it is, but after watching the video my skepticism overtook my bias.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
It wasn't the 'internet mob' that fired her.
By proxy it really was. The company has to make a choice of effectively firing her/putting her on leave (the slightly better option). Or risking serious financial damages from online/media. It's obvious why they chose to go the route they did (it's obviously not right). But you're underplaying the role of the mob/people, especially in today's climate and the culpability of people online in this.
 

Kayla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,316
lots of white people going to come in here and say "SEE I TOLD YOU SO". guess i'll see the same posters in the next black victim of police brutality threads /s
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,299
You can blame right-wing cretins and even the left's insistence that debate always magically exposes the truth, for the "demonization of critical thinking" by allowing bad-faith actors to use plausible deniability as a cover to gaslight minority issues, social justice topics, and outright science. Compound this on top of the fact that America refuses to seriously address systemic grievances- and thus the collective populace indoctrinated in its ideals deserves no benefit of the doubt- and eventually the unheard are going to shake and maneuver within their means.

So yeah, sorry. If I see something that- to me as a black person- looks racist-y, and your reaction directly to me is to immediately go "Now hold on, let's think about this," you're not really endearing yourself to me. Of course this doesn't mean I can't be wrong. But me being wrong subsequently doesn't preclude you from taking away the wrong lesson, which is that the lack of skepticism in these issues is not born from some bloodthirsty desire to see random blue collar folks ruined. If that's the way you look at black folks who inevitably by statistical chance will get it wrong every once in awhile, well then, are you really helping anything up there on your high horse?
/thread
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,927
You can blame right-wing cretins and even the left's insistence that debate always magically exposes the truth, for the "demonization of critical thinking" by allowing bad-faith actors to use plausible deniability as a cover to gaslight minority issues, social justice topics, and outright science. Compound this on top of the fact that America refuses to seriously address systemic grievances- and thus the collective populace indoctrinated in its ideals deserves no benefit of the doubt- and eventually the unheard are going to shake and maneuver within their means.

So yeah, sorry. If I see something that- to me as a black person- looks racist-y, and your reaction directly to me is to immediately go "Now hold on, let's think about this," you're not really endearing yourself to me. Of course this doesn't mean I can't be wrong. But me being wrong subsequently doesn't preclude you from taking away the wrong lesson, which is that the lack of skepticism in these issues is not born from some bloodthirsty desire to see random blue collar folks ruined. If that's the way you look at black folks who inevitably by statistical chance will get it wrong every once in awhile, well then, are you really helping anything up there on your high horse?

Every word.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
skepticism is not racism, jesus fuck
The problem is... When you demand empathy/sympathy over skepticism. It does become that in many people's eyes. It becomes a more binary choice. I personally think skepticism is a very healthy thing. But when it causes friction with people who have strong emotion you're going to feel some heat.

There's obviously layers of context this is dependent on though.
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,296
By proxy it really was. The company has to make a choice of effectively firing her/putting her on leave (the slightly better option). Or risking serious financial damages from online/media. It's obvious why they chose to go the route they did (it's obviously not right). But you're underplaying the role of the mob/people, especially in today's climate and the culpability of people online in this.

You're going an awful long way to excuse the company for this.

"We were going to look into the facts about the person we legally employ but there were a lot of people shouting at us!". That's no excuse at all.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
You're going an awful long way to excuse the company for this.

"We were going to look into the facts about the person we legally employ but there were a lot of people shouting at us!". That's no excuse at all.
Oh they 100% still did that to cover their asses. Which is very likely why they offered to rehire her alongside more information coming to light. I'm just saying whether right or wrong. It's a reaction to the incredible power that online mobs have. And they are every bit as culpable in my eyes. It's just that they can't receive punishment because it's a largely nameless mass.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,646
Take the accusation seriously but if you're chipotle also do your due diligence to see what's going on before firing people.
I think they did initially, she is on video breaking their policy by making people pay first, regardless of the reason. I don't think she should have been fired for it, but they did have a reason to.
 

BriGuy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,275
I've been guilty of jumping to conclusions more than once. I've got a bad habit about automatically assuming the worst in people, but I'm trying to get better.
 

VeryHighlander

The Fallen
May 9, 2018
6,376
The way articles and videos can show you a certain point of view without deeper context is going to become a bigger issue down the line. It's worrying. Being skeptical of the shit you see and read on the internet isn't a new concept. But with how quick you can get a internet mob formed these days it's time for everyone to use common sense and remain cool. Also, erase twitter. It's not how humans are supposed to communicate.
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,497
You can blame right-wing cretins and even the left's insistence that debate always magically exposes the truth, for the "demonization of critical thinking" by allowing bad-faith actors to use plausible deniability as a cover to gaslight minority issues, social justice topics, and outright science. Compound this on top of the fact that America refuses to seriously address systemic grievances- and thus the collective populace indoctrinated in its ideals deserves no benefit of the doubt- and eventually the unheard are going to shake and maneuver within their means.

So yeah, sorry. If I see something that- to me as a black person- looks racist-y, and your reaction directly to me is to immediately go "Now hold on, let's think about this," you're not really endearing yourself to me. Of course this doesn't mean I can't be wrong. But me being wrong subsequently doesn't preclude you from taking away the wrong lesson, which is that the lack of skepticism in these issues is not born from some bloodthirsty desire to see random blue collar folks ruined. If that's the way you look at black folks who inevitably by statistical chance will get it wrong every once in awhile, well then, are you really helping anything up there on your high horse?

Great post.
 

Brotherhood93

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,775
That is another thing people seem to overlook or ignore. The video itself is what caused some people to be skeptical, when the black people were accused of dining and dashing and their response to the accusation seemed...strange, if not flippant and trolly. That for me is when I took a step back and thought, hmm, I'll wait before I comment any further. I went into the thread with a bias that yeah, Chipoltle was probably being racist, because I'm a black man, I know how it is, but after watching the video my skepticism overtook my bias.
Yeah, I can more understand why black people might rush to judgement because I'm sure many have had to put up with the kind of bullshit the video was alleging took place. However, I suspect that the "internet mob" was also made up of many white people who wanted everyone to know just how disgusted they were, without really caring about the issue or the contents of the video itself. I believe the term is "performative wokeness", you probably know the type. Those are the people that are the issue with things like this, not people who were genuinely offended even if that turned out to be misplaced. Of course it's hard to know what the split is with this kind of thing.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
Reactionary people don't give a fuck as long as it fits the narrative, will they apologize? Nah they already moved onto another live to jump the gun at.
 

Maximus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,586
Yep to all of this. People also try to categorize those who don't join their judgement as horrible people off rip even if people wanna wait for more confirmation. Even if they have legit reasons too. Its sad.

That's the main reason I mostly stay on the gaming side. Its silly.

Yup, someone asks for facts or more info and people label them as whatever fits their narrative. It's amazing how many will condemn, but remain silent or don't care if they were wrong when new info comes out proving the original story as wrong. Lots of misinformation floating around too.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
Yeah, I can more understand why black people might rush to judgement because I'm sure many have had to put up with the kind of bullshit the video was alleging took place. However, I suspect that the "internet mob" was also made up of many white people who wanted everyone to know just how disgusted they were, without really caring about the issue or the contents of the video itself. I believe the term is "performative wokeness", you probably know the type. Those are the people that are the issue with things like this, not people who were genuinely offended even if that turned out to be misplaced. Of course it's hard to know what the split is with this kind of thing.
Yea I can definitely agree that it feels like that a lot.
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
I think two separate conversations are getting conflated here.

1. The fact that racism is prevalent and the actual incidences of racism vastly dwarf the fabricated incidents
2. The internet mob reaction based on unconfirmed/limited information is way over the top

As her video made the rounds on social media, people started stalking Moran on social media. They left messages.
"I hope you never get another job."
"You racist bitch."
"You dumb whore."

Moran choked up when she recalled one social media stalker's words. She said he threatened to burn her grandmother's body and send it to her in a bag. Some of the worst threats have since been deleted from users' accounts.
"I got really afraid. I didn't know how I felt," she says. "I was overwhelmed. What does this mean? Why me?"

I don't think its wrong to say, "this situation looks racist to me" but its definitely wrong to go nuclear like what happened above, when you don't know the whole story.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
I think two separate conversations are getting conflated here.

1. The fact that racism is prevalent and the actual incidences of racism vastly dwarf the fabricated incidents
2. The internet mob reaction based on unconfirmed/limited information is way over the top



I don't think its wrong to say, "this situation looks racist to me" but its definitely wrong to go nuclear like what happened above, when you don't know the whole story.
Absolutely. That's what makes me scratch my head when reading Nepenthe's post a little. I don't think anyone is saying you're not justified to assume the worst as a black person, because you are in fact justified. The issue, however, lies in the fact that people immediately went full throttle against this 23 old student working at a chipotle, instead of at least waiting for some piece of extra corroborating evidence or something.

I kinda get why some people react like this though. Setting aside the professional overreactors on twitter, people with genuine grievances see someone they assume is acting racist, and they want that person gone. And the easiest way these days is try to damage the general brand through social media in as loud a way as possible, because what kind of conglomerate is going to risk their brand for a single employee and their due process? It's just sad that innocent people have to end up suffering because of misdirected ire. That being said, the real salt in the wound on this issue is that some people, even here, are seemingly completely unapologetic when stuff like this does happen.
 

Ryder9

Alt account
Banned
May 26, 2018
652
Reactionary people don't give a fuck as long as it fits the narrative, will they apologize? Nah they already moved onto another live to jump the gun at.

these people are reactionary for reactionary sake, they have no real intellectual honesty about a situation and just want pure emotional outrage for their own self gratification;

you can spot these kinds of people because they spewed vile sexist insults in response
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,546
The issue, however, lies in the fact that people immediately went full throttle against this 23 old student working at a chipotle, instead of at least waiting for some piece of extra corroborating evidence or something.
Given how prevalent it is no matter what the issue or context may be, it won't change until social media platforms start taking abuse and harassment seriously.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,927
Absolutely. That's what makes me scratch my head when reading Nepenthe's post a little. I don't think anyone is saying you're not justified to assume the worst as a black person, because you are in fact justified. The issue, however, lies in the fact that people immediately went full throttle against this 23 old student working at a chipotle, instead of at least waiting for some piece of extra corroborating evidence or something.

I think it's a mistake to conflate the people who were reacting against the woman in this story but were otherwise maintaining their composure with internet trolls. Nobody in this conversation (or on Era) was advocating behavior akin to calling this woman a "racist whore" in her dms. Even going there in this conversation is kind of besides the point.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,271
I think it's a mistake to conflate the people who were reacting against the woman in this story but were otherwise maintaining their composure with internet trolls. Nobody in this conversation (or on Era) was advocating behavior akin to calling this woman a "racist whore" in her dms. Even going there in this conversation is kind of besides the point.

I don't agree. Look at the original thread. On the first three pages you have such 'composed' statements as:
"Absolute trash."
"Glad she was fired."
"The employees and manager are fucking trash."
"People ready to die for a company that will fire them because it's Tuesday."
And more. That's not just going "Wow that's awful," and then moving on, that's rhetoric that is only outside of the 'internet mob' because it's literally outside of the internet mob by virtue of being here on ResetEra instead of in a reply/DM on Twitter.
 

Zukuu

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,809
Why is the OP lacking any and all reasons as to why it was justified.
You make it seems like "she is mexican-american, so she can't be racist" is the only point.
Only after some digging, it turns out the guys are known dashers.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,671
Absolutely. That's what makes me scratch my head when reading Nepenthe's post a little. I don't think anyone is saying you're not justified to assume the worst as a black person, because you are in fact justified. The issue, however, lies in the fact that people immediately went full throttle against this 23 old student working at a chipotle, instead of at least waiting for some piece of extra corroborating evidence or something.
Unless we have evidence of people sending threats and insults directly to this woman during the initial incident, then you're preaching to the choir. People on ERA- as far as I know- kept their personal reactions to ERA, and did not go "full throttle."

Unless "going full throttle" in this instance means simply means "making a character judgement," which, no duh. This was initially a story about racism, specifically the act of falsely accusing black men of a crime (which is not something that happens once in a blue moon). There's going to be character judgements. Expecting black people not to make character judgements of those they reasonably perceive as being racist is a fool's errand of the highest order and will remain as such until America can get it together and stop perpetuating white supremacy.

Furthering this fancy is the idea that plausible deniability concerning racism is magically a wholly separate from the discussion of how this specific Chipotle incident fits into the narrative concerning "The Mob Mentality™." No one went after her because they perceived her cooking skills to be subpar or something else equally frivolous. Absolutely no one cared about this woman until they perceived her to be perpetuating a significant issue that actually exists and has harmed millions over centuries. That was the source of the reaction. "This woman appears to be racist." And what else is the reflexive reaction to racism supposed to be? Storied neutrality? Fence-sitting? That's for people who don't get affected by these issues.

Trying to somehow untangle the issue of how racism in the service industry is perceived in this specific context is an exercise in futility and ironically does what people who are using this instance to run a victory lap are accusing the true perpetrators of the incident of doing- trivializing black people's concerns about their specific issues. Because shit, what else am I supposed to think when my particular perspective is brushed aside as "being reactionary for reactionary's sake?" All I think of that person is that they think a kneejerk emotional reaction to shit that has actually happened to me and my folks isn't worth paying attention to. Just a reaction for reaction's sake. Just part of the mob. Just wanting to be mad.

Bollocks.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,927
I don't agree. Look at the original thread. On the first three pages you have such 'composed' statements as:
"Absolute trash."
"Glad she was fired."
"The employees and manager are fucking trash."
And more. That's not just going "Wow that's awful," and then moving on, that's rhetoric that is only outside of the 'internet mob' because it's literally outside of the internet mob by virtue of being here on ResetEra instead of in a reply/DM on Twitter.

If you're looking at the situation from presented in the video and are believing that the situation as you see it (that the woman was acting in a racist way towards black patrons), then "trash" and "glad she was fired" are reasonable responses to the type of racism black people are subjected to every day in this country.

Gendered attacks and sustained harassment (the behavior of trolls), are not, and would have definitely resulted in bans.
 

OtherWorldly

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,857

That's what it looks like.

I am a black man, and I'm gonna say this is one of those rare instances where I think I might have to look into it more. Only because she doesn't seem like the stereotypical racist right off the bat.

And because something about his caption looks like bait to me. Idk, this one just seems off.

Someone give this person a raise. Looked at this from an objective lens on page 1 from
The getgo . Of course even looking at it objectively there can be misses
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,271
If you're looking at the situation from presented in the video and are believing that the situation as you see it (that the woman was acting in a racist way towards black patrons), then "trash" and "glad she was fired" are reasonable responses to the type of racism black people are subjected to every day in this country.

Gendered attacks and sustained harassment (the behavior of trolls), are not, and would have definitely resulted in bans.

To those being harassed I doubt they'd differentiate to much between attacks such as "You're fucking trash and I'm glad you were fired." from more gendered insults; yes the latter would be worse to them but being called "Fucking trash" is still hurtful even if there's no inherent sexism or racism to it. The article even says as such:

They left messages.
"I hope you never get another job."

The only real difference between that and the comment I quoted was that the latter appeared on a relatively small gaming-focused forum instead of a place where the victim might have seen it. I'm not saying you should start banning folks for it or anything, but I think it's at least good to acknowledge that rhetoric such as that would be harmful if posted elsewhere.

Also I think labelling everyone who chose to air their greviances on Twitter as 'trolls' ignores the reality that they're very likely not, that they're also having what they see as "reasonable responses." I highly doubt that the number of legitimate bad actors in this was that significant. In situations like the one posted it's the sheer number of "reasonable responses," that gets people fired and ruins lives; the particularly awful attacks are just the 'icing on the cake' (for lack of a better term).
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
If the story were true, what difference does it make that people mistook her for white? Everyone engages in anti-Black behavior.

Two, she should sue the customers for slander(?).

Third, CNN will call out the reactionary mob who's lives are more likely than not encumbered by racism.... and on the other hand are on year 4 of giving a billion dollar platform to an openly racist administration and their cronies. You can't have it both ways fucksticks, you're part of the problem.
The blacks pulled a fast one here, guess we now know racism is a facade and over-exaggerated.

Treat every occurance with complete skepticism moving forward
This is exactly what a bunch of transparent posters came in here to say.
 

Verano

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
975
Man I already don't like it when people on here make knee jerk reactions to stories we barely know the whole of but I'll chalk it up to people being angry at the state of things as they are, and frankly we probably don't really impact people's real lives that much

But if you step it up to this?

You are in the wrong, point blank
I remember most reset era members were hawking for the worst possible scenario for her rather than trying to understand what's been happening. Saw few people getting banned for not following mob mentality and got shit on. Even when the real truth came out some of those reset era members weren't apologetic at all for what they've said to others here and towards the woman who was constantly harassed by others online and offline. You know who you are. Step up and apologize.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,927
To those being harassed I doubt they'd differentiate to much between attacks such as "You're fucking trash and I'm glad you were fired." from more gendered insults; yes the latter would be worse to them but being called "Fucking trash" is still hurtful even if there's no inherent sexism or racism to it. The article even says as such:

And that's unfortunate. But what you're asking people to do here is not just police words, but tone. The situation as originally presented was maddening. It's understandable that people would use harsh language and not be polite about their distaste. It's not understandable to use this situation as an excuse to attack this woman on any other grounds (her gender, her race, etc). That's the only distinction I can really argue from my position. And in my personal life it's what I live by. If you mistreat me, or someone who looks like me, based on our race? Oh, I'm going to talk all sorts of dog shit about you.

Is it fucked up that this woman had vitriol aimed at her when she ultimately didn't deserve it? Absolutely. But that's not the fault of the people who reacted the way they did because this situation looked like countless other racist scenarios black people have seen play out and actually weren't pranks. It's the fault of the fuckboys who knowingly took advantage of that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,007
Seattle
Hoping the attention on this phenomenon will help temper it. We know the boogeymen, they're right in front of us. We don't need to find new ones to our sides on a daily basis.

This shit happens on local FB community groups all the time. People drop the racist word, and others jump in and lose their minds without the story playing out, it just spirals way out of control
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,556
And did people call them out after it was mentioned?

When the tweets emerge isn't relevant, its how people react afterwards with the new information. But of course you ignore my point to paint a narrative.

People are going to react to what information they have at the time.
This is a problem though, because people KNOW they don't have the whole story and fill in the blanks. And to those who say maybe we should wait for the facts, they get attacked and sometimes banned for downplaying whatever the allegation is.

There really is nothing wrong with waiting for information before coming to a conclusion.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
Can someone who works in fast food tell me what the proper way to de-escalate and resolve this situation was? As someone who worked in retail customer service for several years, I felt like the Chipotle employees handled the situation very poorly by retail standards, but I also know that fast food restaurants don't have on-site security that can escort people out the way that big retailers do. So I don't know what the proper way to resolve the situation was.

I do know that accusing someone of being a thief -- even if you are 10000% positive they are -- is a really terrible way of de-escalating a situation because it resolves literally nothing while making the other person more agitated.
Most thieves will put their hands up and leave once called out. No incidents. Getting push back or what happened here is rare. They there to steal not create drama and attention, except in this case where they literally wanted attention for their social media.
 
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