• The GiftBot 2.0 Launch Giveaway Extravaganza has come to a close with an astounding 8073 games given away to the community by 696 members, a huge success thanks to you! The gifting now continues with more official prizes in the new Gaming Giveaways |OT|. Leftover Steam codes are also being given away to the PC Gaming Era community.

CNN: The California Democratic Party Endorses Kevin De León over incumbent Dianne Feinstein

Status
Not open for further replies.

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,695
not really?

i'm not the one who chose that set of goal posts to begin with. they did. i'm trying to show why it was a bad bad choice of goalposts

if doing stimulus is all it takes to be (economically) left-wing, then it would follow that the swedish centre-right alliance and shinzo abe in japan are economically left-wing
You chose goal posts at all when you declared the Democrats as Center-Right because of Taxation brackets.

So which arbitrary goal posts do we use since are are for using goal posts just not this one.

Ones that only show your argument as correct?
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,898
Sweden
I edited just now to be clearer- Right-wing ideology is the reason shitty policy instead of competent policy ends up happening w/ right-wing parties, much like how religious nuts will make shitty sex-ed policy instead of competent classes that actually reduce birthrates. The reason you don't get the shitty policies with the Dems is because they're not a right-wing party.
if you would use stimulus in a recession as the economic policy bar, i would say it separates the hard right from the centre-right (i.e. left wing, centre-left and centre-right parties all would pursue it), not the centre-right from the centre-left
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,708
not really?

i'm not the one who chose that set of goal posts to begin with. they did. i'm trying to show why it was a bad bad choice of goalposts

if doing stimulus is all it takes to be (economically) left-wing, then it would follow that the swedish centre-right alliance and shinzo abe in japan are economically left-wing
Dear, we chose this "goalpost" because I got told in this very thread that social issues are nice but we need to look at economics to see why people say the Democrats are center-right. Last night I cited a few of Democrats' policies as examples of their being center-left:
But I'll play your game. Again, show me how Democrats' economic policies differ markedly from European center-left social democratic parties, keeping in mind the following:

(a) Democrats support universal health care, which, as European countries have shown, is not necessarily synonymous with single-payer;
(b) Democrats support strong unions;
(c) Democrats support employment protections and non-discrimination laws;
(d) Democrats still support Keynesianism and deficit spending during recessions.

NB: Just because the electorate has denied Democrats the power to implement these policies doesn't mean the party doesn't hold those beliefs.
NB2: Democrats have had unified control of government for 8 of the last 50 years because racist white people refuse to vote for them unless forced by a crisis, meaning they haven't been able to effect aforementioned policies.
But some people still refuse to concede the point.
 

Wiifitkid

Member
Mar 12, 2018
328
Yes, more right-of-center Conservatism masking as "Centrism", that's what we need. We're certainly not in the condition we're in now because of nearly 40 years of it.
On the American political spectrum we Obama was liberal. Whens the last time Congress consreuctively worked together for solutions? Part of the Bush presidency or was it back to Clinton?

Partisinship has made our Congress ineffectual.
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,708
On the American political spectrum we Obama was liberal. Whens the last time Congress consreuctively worked together for solutions? Part of the Bush presidency or was it back to Clinton?

Partisinship has made our Congress ineffectual.
No, Republicans being the dominant party since 1968 and the Democrats only having brief periods of unified control has made our Congress ineffectual.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,898
Sweden
You chose goal posts at all when you declared the Democrats as Center-Right because of Taxation brackets.

So which arbitrary goal posts do we use since are are for using goal posts just not this one.

Ones that only show your argument as correct?
Dear, we chose this "goalpost" because I got told in this very thread that social issues are nice but we need to look at economics to see why people say the Democrats are center-right. Last night I cited a few of Democrats' policies as examples of their being center-left:

But some people still refuse to concede the point.
again, i think you would struggle to find any political scientists who would say "stimulus in recession" is the best single objective measure of where someone is on the left-right economic spectrum. a criterion that would make shinzo abe economically left-wing is not a good criterion

i would think almost all would agree that tax to GDP ratio is a better measure

still, after-tax gini coefficient after preferred fiscal policies would probably be an even better parameter than preferred tax to GDP ratio. (but one that would me much harder to estimate.) again, you would find that most democratic party politicians would fall quite far to the right of the international centre (talking strictly about economic policy) using such a criterion
 

Boiled Goose

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,357
No, Republicans being the dominant party since 1968 and the Democrats only having brief periods of unified control has made our Congress ineffectual.
Go deeper

Congress actually works for some things. See bipartisan tax bill.

Benefits donors. Works.
Benefits average constituents. Doesn't work.

Both parties paid by same donors
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,708
Go deeper

Congress actually works for some things. See bipartisan tax bill.

Benefits donors. Works.
Benefits average constituents. Doesn't work.

Both parties paid by same donors
I applaud you for writing a forum post in the vein of William Carlos Williams - how literary of you! - but you're still not right.

You realize the tax bill got ZERO Democratic votes in either chamber, right?
 

JayC3

bork bork
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
2,065
Go deeper

Congress actually works for some things. See bipartisan tax bill.

Benefits donors. Works.
Benefits average constituents. Doesn't work.

Both parties paid by same donors
Wait, what? The tax bill that just passed recently was voted on by party lines in the Senate. I definitely would not call it a bipartisan bill.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,394
Wait, what? The tax bill that just passed recently was voted on by party lines in the Senate. I definitely would not call it a bipartisan bill.
There's a second one that had massive benefits for local banks/credit unions. Wasn't a tax bill though, was bipartisan because of how big an interest group the smaller banks are due to so many states having banned large-scale branching till the '80s deregulation hit.
 

John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,836
No, we're in this position now because this racist-ass country has only given Democrats unified control of government for 8 of the last 50 years because white people keep punishing Democrats for deciding black lives mattered.

We're in this particular Trumpian position because those same racists relished the chance to vote for a candidate who openly said what they've always said in private.
My point is that as a country, as a socio-political entity, we've been doing the bare minimum for anyone who isn't a straight, white man and calling ourselves champions of progress for it. The idea that we need more centrists in either party only continues that ideology; continuing the status quo for white men. We need to pin the needle so hard to the left just to move this country back ACROSS the line from Conservative to Liberal, let alone to make any real, genuine progress.
 

Veggen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,246
My point is that as a country, as a socio-political entity, we've been doing the bare minimum for anyone who isn't a straight, white man and calling ourselves champions of progress for it. The idea that we need more centrists in either party only continues that ideology; continuing the status quo for white men. We need to pin the needle so hard to the left just to move this country back ACROSS the line from Conservative to Liberal, let alone to make any real, genuine progress.
I mentioned it earlier, but it is a symptom of the political system that functions as a vetocracy. I agree that being a self patter is not a good look.
 

JayC3

bork bork
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
2,065
I mentioned it earlier, but it is a symptom of the political system that functions as a vetocracy. I agree that being a self patter is not a good look.
I don't disagree that our representatives should be more progressive, but in the case of partisan gridlock, that has less to do the ideological orientation of Democratic representatives and more to do with the fact that there are a large number of veto points in our presidential system (unlike a parliamentary system in which relatively fast change can occur if any party/coalition gets a majority). Republicans have polarized asymmetrically to such an extreme degree, and the movement of people into cities has caused the political power of mostly urban Democrats to be inefficiently allocated and thus diluted vs. the mostly rural Republicans; that's the major cause of congressional dysfunction. Like, look at this article from 1994 complaining about gridlock; it's only become worse since then for the reasons I mentioned. Basically, presidential systems are bad.

Regarding this race in particular, I wish Feinstein would have chosen not to run for reelection. Given how rancorous some of the responses have been (like, accusing Feinstein of basically being a Republican, really?), I think some of the reaction has to do with the fact that she's old and a woman, which gives me some pause. But on the merits, I do think that there's a strong case to be made that California should be represented by someone more progressive (esp. where civil liberties are concerned). I voted for Kevin De Leon in the primary, but he's still relatively an unknown and serves more as a protest candidate (better candidates didn't run since Feinstein was running). So I'm amenable, but I really need to take a look at his record, and I hope that newspapers really dig deep to make sure there aren't any skeletons in his closet that we have to worry about. The main thing for me right now is that the sexual harassment scandal in the state senate happened on his watch; it's still an ongoing issue/story, complicated by the fact that he shared an apartment with one of the accused, and it would be a big deal if he knew about the cases but did nothing.
 

Veggen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,246
Dear, we chose this "goalpost" because I got told in this very thread that social issues are nice but we need to look at economics to see why people say the Democrats are center-right.
Yes, I appreciate you being receptive to that correction. I imagine quite a few Americans wouldn't take to that view, because in separating those as orthogonal issues, you'll find the libertarian "socially progressive fiscally conservative" gobbledygook meaning "sure you can marry, just don't you dare be poor".
 
Last edited:

Helio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,968
This is from 2016, but Dem politicians saying shit like this does not give me any faith in them to do the right thing:

At least publicly, Schumer has no worries about his party’s dwindling fortunes among working-class white voters. “For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”
There Dems are much better than the GOP by far, but they're still bad. Obama, Harris, Booker, and Biden could be out there doing stuff like Sanders did tonight with his CEOs vs. Workers town hall.
 

Ramuh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
839
WIll Dianne Feinstein have a problem with the whole "had a Chinese spy on the payroll for 20 years" her? Could this topple her?
 

B-Dubs

Oh well, what the hell?
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
17,171
This isn't the Diane Feinstein OT, you can talk about that in the thread about that news. If there isn't one then make it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.