COMICS!!!|OT| July 2019 | No, More Mutants!

Frank Quietly faces - Potato, Not Potato?

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phanphare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,051
We've had multiple instances of people making threads in the OT or people coming into this thread to say they want to get into comics but it's all just too confusing and they need advice.

Comics for new people is how everyone looks at the Kingdom Hearts storyline.
in most of those cases they could literally copy/paste their thread title of "where to start with [x-series]" into a google search and be pretty good, it's not that serious

and if you're seeking out the comic book OT in the community section of a video game forum on the internet to type and ask questions about comics you have all the tools you need
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,033
Again, a new person will look at this and be, like, "what the fuck?".

This doesn't seem confusing to you because you already understand it, a new person will be confused by this. Imagine trying to get into a TV show and there's multiple season 1s. Like, a ton of season 1s. And you might say, "well, it's two different things, you can't compare them" but that's how new people see it.
Like I said, I get kids reading comics all the time by just handing them a few (usually older) ones and just telling them to read it. Kids don't care that much. It's only young adults who get up their own ass and overwhelmed by (erroneous) expectations.

Yep, fans sure were confused about Daredevil Season 1, Jessica Jones Season 1, Luke Cage Season 1, Iron Fist Season 1, Punisher Season 1, and Defenders Season 1, and no one watched them.

hint: these all construct to one overarching storyline starting with Daredevil Season 1 and ending with Jessica Jones Season 3, and somehow they were overwhelmingly popular and no one got confused.
 
May 24, 2019
592
I actually enjoyed getting into DC by looking hundreds of characters up, reading Crisis events. That large complicated history drew me in.
 

No Depth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,943
I don't think the issue is kids, it's more the college age/adults who can't wrap their minds around the idea that you don't need the entire knowledge of a characters continuity to enjoy a book.
I am guilty. My OCD compels me to have that knowledge or I get irritated. Like I will stop at a panel and go read an entire run if some reference is made I am unfamiliar with. (My reading list to prep for Infinite Crisis was insane last year)

But I actively enjoy digging in the past for those key connective stories. I can’t fathom many are as crazy as me though.

But yes I am super annoyed by the lack of organization and chronology in comics.
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,223
Like I don't think continuity is the problem insofar as decades of continuity existed before the internet, I figure it's more that as time goes on more and more forms of media come to take the place of comics.
 

Woozies

Member
Nov 1, 2017
12,247
Like I don't think continuity is the problem insofar as decades of continuity existed before the internet, I figure it's more that as time goes on more and more forms of media come to take the place of comics.
See, I d9n't agree with this assessment.

Cause Manga does gangbusters, where anime does not.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,275
Like I said, I get kids reading comics all the time by just handing them a few (usually older) ones and just telling them to read it. Kids don't care that much. It's only young adults who get up their own ass and overwhelmed by (erroneous) expectations.

Yep, fans sure were confused about Daredevil Season 1, Jessica Jones Season 1, Luke Cage Season 1, Iron Fist Season 1, Punisher Season 1, and Defenders Season 1, and no one watched them.

hint: these all construct to one overarching storyline starting with Daredevil Season 1 and ending with Jessica Jones Season 3, and somehow they were overwhelmingly popular and no one got confused.
See, this attitude is just perplexing to me. I mean, you do understand that there are people who find getting into comics really confusing, right? This isn't a thing I'm making up. And you do understand that comics aren't as popular as they used to be (even though their movies are the most popular thing ever) and they have an issue getting new readers.

Yes, I understand how new runs work and how continuity within comics is bullshit and I've had to explain this to multiple people who wanted to get into comics on this site but were confused. I get you, you get it. You're not confused by it. A lot of people are, though. Just because you don't find it confusing doesn't mean others don't. No amount of arguing or you explaining just how much you're not confused by a medium you've been reading for years will mean new people don't find the prospect of getting into comics daunting and confusing.
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,159
NYC
Like I said, I get kids reading comics all the time by just handing them a few (usually older) ones and just telling them to read it. Kids don't care that much. It's only young adults who get up their own ass and overwhelmed by (erroneous) expectations.

Yep, fans sure were confused about Daredevil Season 1, Jessica Jones Season 1, Luke Cage Season 1, Iron Fist Season 1, Punisher Season 1, and Defenders Season 1, and no one watched them.

hint: these all construct to one overarching storyline starting with Daredevil Season 1 and ending with Jessica Jones Season 3, and somehow they were overwhelmingly popular and no one got confused.
You're comparing 1 set of Netflix TV shows to 60 years worth of comics? Netflix & MCU are making the comic structure more accessible, they actually prove that the comic BOOK structure is highly inaccessible. That's why everyone loves the 2 billion dollar MCU movies and comic books sell like 10,000 copies.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,033
See, this attitude is just perplexing to me. I mean, you do understand that there are people who find getting into comics really confusing, right? This isn't a thing I'm making up. And you do understand that comics aren't as popular as they used to be (even though their movies are the most popular thing ever) and they have an issue getting new readers.

Yes, I understand how new runs work and how continuity within comics is bullshit and I've had to explain this to multiple people who wanted to get into comics on this site but were confused. I get you, you get it. You're not confused by it. A lot of people are, though. Just because you don't find it confusing doesn't mean others don't. No amount of arguing or you explaining just how much you're not confused by a medium you've been reading for years will mean new people don't find the prospect of getting into comics daunting and confusing.
Calm down my guy.

Continuity is not the problem. When comics were MOST popular (late 80s, early 90s I guess) comics had the exact same continuity problem- hell, it was a lot worse. issues would routinely be numbered in the hundreds, your local 7-11 might carry an issue or it might not. twenty or thirty years of prior history fans had NO WAY of accessing or looking up at all (remember, the direct market didn't exist, wikipedia didn't exist) didn't stop Spidey, Thor, etc from selling hundreds of thousands of copies a month.

Continuity also exists in long running movie and television series. Game of thrones having 8 seasons of extremely serialized content didn't stop the finale from breaking records. Star Trek: Discovery apparently still does extremely good numbers despite there being a bazillion episodes of Star Trek going back to the 1960s that no one could possibly watch.

21 previous marvel movies having been released in theatres did not stop Endgame from becoming the highest grossing film of all time* (lets not do the avatar vs. endgame thing here now, just roll with it).

YOU don't seem to understand that actual continuity isn't a barrier if the content is entertaining for the vast majority of people. They simply aren't concerned. Do comics sell less than they did at their peak? Sure they do (kinda- overall the industry is at the peak it was in 91/92 but it's spread out a lot more). but this is more of an ACCESSIBILITY ISSUE for floppies rather than a criticism of the content. The direct market was devastated in the late 90s- 2/3rds of your shops vanished overnight and were not replaced, and the ones that remain are not exactly known for being welcoming or convenient to new readers. they cater to hardcore fans in their 30s.

Also worth considering is that there is a GIANT sector of the market that no one has any visibility to (digital, library sales, scholastic direct). It's unknown what gets sold here, the Diamond lists don't account for it.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,275
Calm down my guy.

Continuity is not the problem. When comics were MOST popular (late 80s, early 90s I guess) comics had the exact same continuity problem- hell, it was a lot worse. issues would routinely be numbered in the hundreds, your local 7-11 might carry an issue or it might not. twenty or thirty years of prior history fans had NO WAY of accessing or looking up at all (remember, the direct market didn't exist, wikipedia didn't exist) didn't stop Spidey, Thor, etc from selling hundreds of thousands of copies a month.

Continuity also exists in long running movie and television series. Game of thrones having 8 seasons of extremely serialized content didn't stop the finale from breaking records. Star Trek: Discovery apparently still does extremely good numbers despite there being a bazillion episodes of Star Trek going back to the 1960s that no one could possibly watch.

21 previous marvel movies having been released in theatres did not stop Endgame from becoming the highest grossing film of all time* (lets not do the avatar vs. endgame thing here now, just roll with it).

YOU don't seem to understand that actual continuity isn't a barrier if the content is entertaining for the vast majority of people. They simply aren't concerned. Do comics sell less than they did at their peak? Sure they do (kinda- overall the industry is at the peak it was in 91/92 but it's spread out a lot more). but this is more of an ACCESSIBILITY ISSUE for floppies rather than a criticism of the content. And there is a GIANT sector of the market that no one has any visibility to (digital, library sales, scholastic direct).
Please chill out, stop freaking out.

Do you honestly think I'm making up that there are people who find comic books daunting? Because it seems like you do.
 

hipsterpants

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,553
I would assume the manga comparison should be more about trades rather than floppies honestly. 99% of Western manga readers I would assume are tpb collections excluding the filthy pirates.
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,223
See, I d9n't agree with this assessment.

Cause Manga does gangbusters, where anime does not.
Yeah sure, manga is another thing getting in the way of comics, because it's a comic without all the nerd shit people get smug about when they talk about how they don't read comics, like continuity and shared universes.

It's just that the people who don't want to read about shared superhero universes were never going to get into Big Two cape comics, because that's basically all they've been for decades.

And for some reason, there were tons of people reading Superman comics numbered in the hundreds with no problem and things only started going wrong when renumbering started becoming commonplace.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,033
Please chill out, stop freaking out.

Do you honestly think I'm making up that there are people who find comic books daunting? Because it seems like you do.
I'm not freaking out at all.

I don't think you're "making up" that there are people who find comic books daunting and don't read them. just as there are people who find novels daunting and don't read them, newspapers daunting and don't read them, etc and so on.

There are legitimate reasons why people might pick up a comic or not, but "there are too many issues" is not a valid one. When comics were at their peak and selling hundreds of thousands of issues a month- the exact same issue existed to a greater degree. It had no impact on sales. The medium doesn't require you to read dozens of back issues to understand it and never has.

The PERCEPTION that continuity is a barrier is a bigger issue for some people than the reality of continuity being a barrier. This is what I'm trying to get across to you.
 

Woozies

Member
Nov 1, 2017
12,247
Comic decline came long before renumbering was a big deal.

And the issue isn't just cape comics. Cause indies sell just as badly.

Think about this.

Every big comic writer is trying to get that tv deal for one of their comics.

Most notable manga/manhwa/manhua writers don't care. Cause one industry can't sustain itself and the others can
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,275
The PERCEPTION that continuity is a barrier is a bigger issue for some people than the reality of continuity being a barrier. This is what I'm trying to get across to you.
And my whole point is that perception is daunting to new people. My entire point is that new people will look at all the continuity, all the number ones, and will be confused by it and this makes them not want to read comics. The reality is that you don't need to read everything and that starting from the newest number 1 pretty much is always the way to go but most new people don't really get this. Why are there so many number 1s? What do you mean I don't need to read the previous stuff?

Like I told you, I've had to explain this stuff to multiple people on ERA. I get it and you get it but that's because we've been reading comics for years. You're trying to convince me how it's not that confusing when I get that, I really do, I'm currently posting in a comic book OT on a video game forum. I'm not the new person but the new person will be turned away by that perception. I've seen it all too often and I've tried to help clear up that perception.

You may not find it a legitimate reason for them to not read comics but that's besides the point, legit or not, they still didn't read them.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,033
Comic decline came long before renumbering was a big deal.

And the issue isn't just cape comics. Cause indies sell just as badly.
Also true. There's some GREAT indie content (and old friend just released Reaver #1 this week, I like it a lot) out there, but accessing that content is nearly impossible to come across if you aren't a hardcore fan already.

your local comic shop is simply too rare, and not welcoming enough to new readers and women. They can be pretty toxic places.
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,159
NYC
a brief interlude from this discussion to invoke BKatastrophe Vic_Viper

x-force was just terrific. i didn't think i'd be an Elixir fan, but here we are. kid reminds me a lot of my d&d character - a cleric healer who just wants to help people but occasionally has to cast a third level Inflict Wounds on a fool.




i am wrapping up the x-men legacy necrosha issues now and will be starting Second Coming shortly. having read the magneto / rogue savage land issues recently, i love their chemistry in this.

Morrison Batman. I'm practically tungsten.
jesus. i thought X-Cutioner's Song 1 was rough
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,033
And my whole point is that perception is daunting to new people. My entire point is that new people will look at all the continuity, all the number ones, and will be confused by it and this makes them not want to read comics. The reality is that you don't need to read everything and that starting from the newest number 1 pretty much is always the way to go but most new people don't really get this. Why are there so many number 1s? What do you mean I don't need to read the previous stuff?

Like I told you, I've had to explain this stuff to multiple people on ERA. I get it and you get it but that's because we've been reading comics for years. You're trying to convince me how it's not that confusing when I get that, I really do, I'm currently posting in a comic book OT on a video game forum. I'm not the new person but the new person will be turned away by that perception. I've seen it all too often and I've tried to help clear up that perception.
Since we're talking in circles I'll end this here- but will reiterate that I think you are drastically overrating the importance of continuity as a barrier and drastically UNDERRATING the serious accessibility and distribution problem that the comic industry has. The LCS is a dead end and actively harmful to the medium.
 
OP
OP
Messi

Messi

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,836
Way on new Doom Patrol and how it's 6 issue books now not ongoing I guess. He says he never stopped writing it...

 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,033
Comic decline came long before renumbering was a big deal.
I'm replying to this again because I think it's important to clarify something about the decline of print comics in the US. The peak of the industry was the early 90s- 1991, 1992, or thereabouts. A lot of blame is placed on the industry catering to speculators and collectors over longtime fans and flooding the market with #1s nobody wanted, expensive hologram covers, etc. By the end of the decade the entire industry suffered a massive collapse and Marvel themselves was near bankrupt. There's SOME truth to this, but the primary cause of the industry collapse isn't "too many speculators" it's a distribution war that Marvel Started.

In 1994, looking to squeeze even more money out of the market than they already had as well as solve some self inflicted issues with debt, Marvel bought the third largest distributor of comics in the US, "Heroes World Distribution" to act as their exclusive distributor of all comic book content. Diamond and Capital City were #1 and #2. This was disastrous for a few reasons:

Without Marvel comics to distribute, all of the surviving direct market comics distributors suddenly found their overall sales volume reduced by 35%-40% ... while their operating costs remained constant. In a business where even a single point of discount or volume could translate into huge differences in earnings, these massive losses in sales volume were simply not sustainable. Steve Geppi, owner of Diamond Comic Distributors, responded to this threat to the survival of his business by entering into negotiations to become the exclusive distributor for all the other comics publishers
There were about ten distributors in existence when Marvel bought Heroes World. All of them saw their overall sales drop by up to 40%, but not their costs. Marvel going exclusive meant that virtually all of them were going to go out of business, and Diamond began making aggressive deals to exclusively distribute other non-marvel comic books that Capital City and the others could not match. Capital City made some exclusive deals with a few smaller labels, but this only had the effect of putting those labels out of business.

the other big reason was that Heroes World was a small distributor that in NO WAY was prepared to take on the volume of exclusively distributing the massive chunk of the market that Marvel represented:

Not only did the did the Heroes World Distributing company lack the infrastructure to ship Marvel's weekly sales volume, but the Heroes World management team failed miserably in the PR war to win the hearts and minds of comics retailers. In fact, rather than win over any converts to Marvel, the hassle of having to place two new comics orders each month (sometimes at a lower overall discount), plus paying freight costs on Heroes World shipments, pushed many comics retailers to the brink of closing their stores.

The factor that ultimately made quite a few comics retailers decide to leave the business entirely was the error rate at Heroes World, both in shipments, and billings. The word "fiasco" simply doesn't come close to describing the depth of the problem. The Marvel New York executive team became so distressed at the initial failures at Heroes World that they quickly transferred Marvel Direct Market Sales Manager, Matt Ragone, to the New Jersey Heroes World headquarters to personally intercede. Despite's Matt's prodigious managerial talents, however, the problems simply could not be solved. Just as a case in point, the first week that Heroes World exclusively shipped Marvel comics there were thousands of calls made to the New Jersey Heroes World headquarters to report problems. A new phone system had been installed in anticipation of this possibility, but it was somehow forgotten to ventilate the room where the phone switching equipment was stored. As a result, the internal heat generated by the new equipment caused the entire Heroes World phone system to shut down for three (?) days. Imagine being a comics retailer with no new Marvel Comics that week, irate fans screaming at you, and no way to reach anyone at Heroes World. The frustration and anger levels among comics retailers were as high as I've ever seen them during my 34-year tenure in the comics business. To this day, I still hear from former comics retailers who exited the business during this awful period who still harbor venomous thoughts toward everyone involved with Heroes World.
Heroes World struggled through 1995 and 1996, before being driven out of existence by lawsuits in 1997 as Marvel returned to Diamond, now the only player left in the print comics industry. Those outlets that weren't forced to close by Heroes World massively screwing up for years found themselves in a TERRIBLE position as Diamond's monopoly meant that costs were now far higher than they had been during the era when distribution was competitive. Making things worse, a viable competitor to Diamond isn't possible- as a "no resale" exclusive clause between Diamond and DC prevents a viable competitor from ever arising. Smaller shops were driven out of business totally by the new Monopoly diamond had, and by the end of the decade nearly 90% of local comic book stores had closed.

There are other smaller issues (Marvel was in a precarious position with a lot of debt and made some bad purchases on top of this) but THAT is the big reason why floppy sales are nowhere near their pre-crash levels, and CAN'T return to their pre-crash levels. A new system needs to be established that doesn't rely on the existing distribution network of Diamond to LCS.
 

Lashley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,147
Lots of people I know get put off by comics because they find it confusing.

I usually just recommend them trades that don't require background knowledge other than the basics of the main character.
 

mreddie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,204
Wait, how is Diamond allowed to hold a monopoly? Isn't that categorically illegal?
Remember how MLB had 2-3 games a year and then Sony just ended up having the exclusive? Or when for awhile, 2K was the only NBA game? It's like that, it's not much a monopoly, it's just no one has made up a similar system but Diamond has straight up became the monopoly.
 
May 24, 2019
592
Going by DP's first issue back, I like the idea of silly one-off stories. There's no reason to make that fitness world thing any bigger.
 

Vic_Viper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
Way just pisses me off. Just let someone else take over if you cant commit to it. Maybe thats the plan after these 6 issues, I dunno. Just dont hold the book in limbo because your other book got picked up by Netflix.

As the saying goes, shit or get off the pot
 

Vic_Viper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
I thought Shonen books were books like Naruto, DBZ, Bleach. Like battle Mangas, that seemingly never end lol.
 

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,858
I thought Shonen books were books like Naruto, DBZ, Bleach. Like battle Mangas, that seemingly never end lol.
All of those are shonen and ran in the most popular shonen magazine. Those series you mentioned happened to go on forever because they were extremely popular to the point where they are currently top 10 in all-time manga sales.
 

Vic_Viper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
All of those are shonen and ran in the most popular shonen magazine. Those series you mentioned happened to go on forever because they were extremely popular to the point where they are currently top 10 in all-time manga sales.
I was trying to think of one that wasnt in SJ, but you get what I meant right? Aside from them all being in the same magazine. Like you wouldnt classify something like Death Note or MuShiShi as Shonen right?

EDIT: I was wrong. Quick Google search says Shonen means Few Years

 

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,858
I was trying to think of one that wasnt in SJ, but you get what I meant right? Aside from them all being in the same magazine. Like you wouldnt classify something like Death Note or MuShiShi as Shonen right?
Death Note ran in Shonen Jump, but it's different from the norm and the story was probably too good to pass on. It was probably at the very limit of what they would allow in SJ.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,997
I'm actually curious.

What do folks think are the logistical faults in comics? Nothing to do with writing, purely in how they're delivered/structured/packaged as products.
They're sold to a niche audience only. It's like if videogames were only available at Gamestop and there weren't as many Gamestops as there are.
They're overpriced and sold monthly with the norm being that each issue is 1/6th of a story. Conversely, most movies, books or videogames will tell a coherent/complete story even if it's one entry in a larger series.
They are sold online with a high normal price, but massive sales, which means that the prices are a deterrent to casual fans while more dedicated fans will simply wait for sales as they're aware of how often they come.
 

Freezasaurus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,158
Dystopian America
Death Note ran in Shonen Jump, but it's different from the norm and the story was probably too good to pass on. It was probably at the very limit of what they would allow in SJ.
It's worth noting that Death Note was released under the Shonen Jump Advanced imprint, which was started in 2004 for titles that were aimed toward an audience of older teens and young adults.