COMICS!!!|OT| September 2019 | Knull and void!

[ThousandEyes]

But isn't Hank Pym the "Scientist Supreme"

where he might not have the raw knowledge of Reed or Tony, as Reed is the explorer and Tony is the Engineer

Hank makes science almost magic

 

[R0b1n]

But isn't Hank Pym the "Scientist Supreme"

where he might not have the raw knowledge of Reed or Tony, as Reed is the explorer and Tony is the Engineer

Hank makes science almost magic

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I don't get it.

Also, is this implying that the patron of Hank is goddamn eternity?

 

[Manmademan]

I read the Emma thing as infidelity, and it was presented as such. Doesn't matter if Jean forgave him or brushed it off.

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it's not. Jean confirmed by reading scott's mind that he had never been unfaithful. Emma made the offer, scott turned her down. Jean was in the wrong there.
Their relationship wasn't in a good place, but Scott was not unfaithful to her.

Cyclops was not right. Had they listened to him, Hope wouldn't have trained. Wanda would have stayed in hiding. Hope would have been consumed by the Phoenix and gone dark like Jean did and cyclops eventually would have.

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Scott was correct. We see in spin off books that Hope and her "Lights" were created by the phoenix force for the express purpose of jump starting evolution. Containing the Phoenix Force is literally what she was made for. This evolutionary jumpstart had occurred elsewhere in the universe using other hosts without a problem.

There is also no reason to believe that the Phoenix is inherently an unstable or malevolent entity. The Avengers were panicked by the possibility of Dark Phoenix (who according to Byrne's explanation was never jean grey!), but completely ignored that Rachel was a phoenix host for YEARS without a problem. Quentin Quire as a stable Phoenix Avatar ALSO shows up in Battle of the Atom, perfectly fine.

Rather than listen to Scott and the X-men that the Phoenix wasn't out to destroy the planet (it wasn't) and could be controlled (it could) Tony Stark and the Avengers not only attacked the X-men to seize hope, but then **shot at** the Phoenix force and fragmented it, sending it into five DIFFERENT hosts who weren't meant for it.

Even then, the opening chapter of AvX has the Phoenix Five turning the world into a paradise and solving drought and world hunger. the Avengers go out of their way to attack them ANYWAY instead of working with them for weeks/months, which results in the phoenix five becoming progressively more unstable as the phoenix force concentrates it's power among fewer hosts, inevitably leading scott summers to go Dark Phoenix.

It was the Avengers failing to listen to the X-men and going full aggressor over a cosmic entity they did not understand that caused AvX. The Point of the series (and what formed the Unity Squad in Uncanny Avengers) is that had the Avengers had better relations with earth's mutants in the first place and listened and worked with them instead of trying to imprison them and attack the PF, AvX would never have happened.

 

[MHWilliams]

I read the Emma thing as infidelity, and it was presented as such. Doesn't matter if Jean forgave him or brushed it off.

Cyclops was not right. Had they listened to him, Hope wouldn't have trained. Wanda would have stayed in hiding. Hope would have been consumed by the Phoenix and gone dark like Jean did and cyclops eventually did.

Because hope went to Kun Lun and trained with Wanda, thanks to the Avengers, Scott was eventually right, but only because the Avengers intervened, which makes them right.

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You don't come to my house after spending years ignoring my problems and demand I hand over one of my children.

Absolutely 100 percent go fuck yourself, "Captain America".

This is why more people of color need to write the X-Men. You need that energy.

 

[Canucked]

You don't come to my house after spending years ignoring my problems and demand I hand over one of my children.

Absolutely 100 percent go fuck yourself, "Captain America".

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Totally get it. Doesn't make Cyclops right about Hope.

 

[Woozies]

You don't come to my house after spending years ignoring my problems and demand I hand over one of my children.

Absolutely 100 percent go fuck yourself, "Captain America".

This is why more people of color need to write the X-Men. You need that energy.

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Fuck that.

As long as X-men remains the pretty and beautiful white people with problems. i don't need them co-oping real people struggles and mentality.

They can take their Mutant Names and kick fucking rocks.

 

[Woozies]

The Black/Hispanic/Asian Man's struggle does not need to be co-opted as the Laser eyed, Connecticut born, could be a Model for the Gap, White Man's struggle.

 

[Grayson]

But isn't Hank Pym the "Scientist Supreme"

where he might not have the raw knowledge of Reed or Tony, as Reed is the explorer and Tony is the Engineer

Hank makes science almost magic

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I loved Mighty Avengers.

 

[MHWilliams]

As long as X-men remains the pretty and beautiful white people with problems. i don't need them co-oping real people struggles and mentality.

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I mean, that's the reason to have a person of color writing them? To address stuff like that?

That just reads like, "Do not fix the bad things about the X-Men!"

 

[mreddie]

I loved Mighty Avengers.

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[Grayson]

Tell him his art always sucked ass.

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It didn't though. Why lie to him?

 

[Manmademan]

I mean, that's the reason to have a person of color writing them? To address stuff like that?

That just reads like, "Do not fix the bad things about the X-Men!"

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There's also the somewhat obvious point that metaphor within literature (the mutant struggle as a stand in for minority rights) has a place, because the people that most need to be reading things like that would absolutely not pick up a comic book that dealt explicitly with say...black or muslim discrimination.

 

[Woozies]

I mean, that's the reason to have a person of color writing them? To address stuff like that?

That just reads like, "Do not fix the bad things about the X-Men!"

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I'm not saying don't fix the bad things about the X-men. I'm saying in this day and age, we shouldn't be holding out for an allegory for the real world woes that exist.

 

[Lashley]

There's also the somewhat obvious point that metaphor within literature (the mutant struggle as a stand in for minority rights) has a place, because the people that most need to be reading things like that would absolutely not pick up a comic book that dealt explicitly with say...black or muslim discrimination.

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Ding ding ding

The crowd would cry on about sjws are the crowd who need to read it the most

 

[Canucked]

The Black/Hispanic/Asian Man's struggle does not need to be co-opted as the Laser eyed, Connecticut born, could be a Model for the Gap, White Man's struggle.

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Cyclops couldn't model for the gap, he's more Moore's Clothing for Men.

 

[MHWilliams]

That's not the Court of Owls symbol. Ra's Al Ghul?

 

[Woozies]

There's also the somewhat obvious point that metaphor within literature (the mutant struggle as a stand in for minority rights) has a place, because the people that most need to be reading things like that would absolutely not pick up a comic book that dealt explicitly with say...black or muslim discrimination.

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How much does that actually work? I'm going to guess not a lot if at all. i doubt a racist read about Harry Potter's house elves went "Oh man, are we doing this to Black people?!"

 

[Manmademan]

Ding ding ding

The crowd would cry on about sjws are the crowd who need to read it the most

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Yep. Captain America: Sam Wilson is one of my favorite books of the past few years or so. Doesn't pull any punches regarding race relations in the united states, right in the middle of this Trump shit when a book like that would do the most good. It's a good, well written book and the art is on point.

Even so, I can't tell you how many times I heard people just refuse to pick it up because it was "the black captain america book." And those were the people that needed to be reading that.

How much does that actually work? I'm going to guess not a lot if at all. i doubt a racist read about Harry Potter's house elves went "Oh man, are we doing this to Black people?!"

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There is a very wide spectrum between "woke as hell, and marching in the street" and "card carrying racist." There's likely nothing you can do about someone gleefully attending Klan rallies, but the people who go about their lives simply not thinking about minority issues and living in a midwestern bubble are the people you want and need to reach doing stuff like this. And X-men isn't the only franchise that does this. Carnival Row (just finished watching this) does the same thing, but isn't billed explicitly as a story about race.

Metaphor has its uses, especially in film and literature.

 

[SageShinigami]

That's not the Court of Owls symbol. Ra's Al Ghul?

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Snyder brought up the Court of Owls though. So I'm thinking it's going to be both, plus a third force. Also, "Capture the Night" probably works together with the Nemesis System they wanted to include.

 

[R0b1n]

How much does that actually work? I'm going to guess not a lot if at all. i doubt a racist read about Harry Potter's house elves went "Oh man, are we doing this to Black people?!"

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It just needs to work once to be worth exploring tbh

 

[Canucked]

Yep. Captain America: Sam Wilson is one of my favorite books of the past few years or so. Doesn't pull any punches regarding race relations in the united states, right in the middle of this Trump shit when a book like that would do the most good. It's a good, well written book and the art is on point.

Even so, I can't tell you how many times I heard people just refuse to pick it up because it was "the black captain america book." And those were the people that needed to be reading that.

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You could sense the buttholes clench when Cap gave his shield to Sam in endgame and not Bucky.

 

[Deleted member 59339]

What's the next event this game could realistically be announced at?

I know WB has announced several things on the Keighleys before, but there's no way they're ramping up the marketing this much right now for a December reveal.

Sony has a State of Play tomorrow, but I've never watched one of those.

 

[SageShinigami]

Totally get it. Doesn't make Cyclops right about Hope.

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I'mma be honest. It just seems like you wanna hate Cyclops lol.

 

[SageShinigami]

What's the next event this game could realistically be announced at?

I know WB has announced several things on the Keighleys before, but there's no way they're ramping up the marketing this much right now for a December reveal.

Sony has a State of Play tomorrow, but I've never watched one of those.

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It's probably State of Play. The thing's going to be 20 minutes, and while that could be all TLoU2 stuff, it seems unlikely when they've got a whole media event for it planned the same day. They can roll out more information about it later.

All this teasing + WB Montreal Twitter talking for the first time in years + Sony usually has a close connection with WB's Batman stuff = State of Play being the best option.

 

[Manmademan]

You could sense the buttholes clench when Cap gave his shield to Sam in endgame and not Bucky.

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You can kind of tell the Falcon/Winter Soldier series is going to touch on a lot of the same themes as Captain America: SW did, especially with USAgent being cast, presumably for the "Not MY Captain America" crowd.

 

[Canucked]

I'mma be honest. It just seems like you wanna hate Cyclops lol.

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I love to hate Cyclops, in a good way. He's only interesting when he's a little dark. But people are always quick to brush away his darkness, so I call it out. He's lame as hell as a good boy. I think when he was a renegade on the run it was most interesting.

But yes, I always did have the Madeline thing in the back of my mind, so I don't love him.

 

[Canucked]

You can kind of tell the Falcon/Winter Soldier series is going to touch on a lot of the same themes as Captain America: SW did, especially with USAgent being cast, presumably for the "Not MY Captain America" crowd.

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I hope he still gets his own movies as Cap and not just a TV show.

 

[SageShinigami]

I love to hate Cyclops, in a good way. He's only interesting when he's a little dark. But people are always quick to brush away his darkness, so I call it out. He's lame as hell as a good boy. I think when he was a renegade on the run it was most interesting.

But yes, I always did have the Madeline thing in the back of my mind, so I don't love him.

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The thing is....nearly every relevant hero has something in their background that makes them garbage. Sooner or later, a writer has a bad idea that an editor should've altered/rejected but didn't. Later you "clean it up" but it's already happened. I'd rather just go ahead and ignore it than just let that character be tainted.

And tbh the X-Force thing is fine with me (I will shed no tears if someone hates a specific group and a select few from those group start killing them) and the AvX thing...I mean. Scott Was Right. Those things make him darker, but not a bad guy. Him cheating with Emma though, you got me there.

 

[Manmademan]

I hope he still gets his own movies as Cap and not just a TV show.

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Honestly I'm the opposite on this. The movies are great, but it's really difficult to address complex themes in a 2 hour blockbuster that needs to have things exploding constantly to placate the international audience.

A political thriller (which the CA franchise is best suited for) works way, way better as a high budget miniseries spread over 8-10 episodes. TV has been where all the compelling drama has been for years over the multiplex and this isn't an accident. There's simply so much more room for nuance and character development.

 

[R0b1n]

I would love to be proven wrong, but I don't trust the MCU to go as hard in tackling more controversial themes as the comics. I expect it to be similar to how Stark's drinking problem is toned down significantly in the movies.

 

[Manmademan]

I would love to be proven wrong, but I don't trust the MCU to go as hard in tackling more controversial themes as the comics. I expect it to be similar to how Stark's drinking problem is toned down significantly in the movies.

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At the same time though, Daredevil Season 1 and 3, Jessica Jones season 1, and the first half of Luke Cage season 1 before diamondback shows up are WAY better than 90% of the MCU. Note: I never got more than a couple episodes into Punisher so I can't say if that was good or not.

 

[SageShinigami]

I would love to be proven wrong, but I don't trust the MCU to go as hard in tackling more controversial themes as the comics. I expect it to be similar to how Stark's drinking problem is toned down significantly in the movies.

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No, let's not understate this. Stark's drinking problem literally does not exist in the films. He's drunk wearing the armor once, someone calls him on his shit, and then we never see it again. They barely got to explore the character at all, which kinda sucks but it is what it is.

Honestly I'm the opposite on this. The movies are great, but it's really difficult to address complex themes in a 2 hour blockbuster that needs to have things exploding constantly to placate the international audience.

A political thriller (which the CA franchise is best suited for) works way, way better as a high budget miniseries spread over 8-10 episodes. TV has been where all the compelling drama has been for years over the multiplex and this isn't an accident. There's simply so much more room for nuance and character development.

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I'm gonna go ahead and say this is true for superheroes in general. The budget is lacking, but the story can always unfold better over 8-10 episode seasons rather than 143 minutes.

 

[Canucked]

The thing is....nearly every relevant hero has something in their background that makes them garbage. Sooner or later, a writer has a bad idea that an editor should've altered/rejected but didn't. Later you "clean it up" but it's already happened. I'd rather just go ahead and ignore it than just let that character be tainted.

And tbh the X-Force thing is fine with me (I will shed no tears if someone hates a specific group and a select few from those group start killing them) and the AvX thing...I mean. Scott Was Right. Those things make him darker, but not a bad guy. Him cheating with Emma though, you got me there.

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I was young when I read X-Factor. I was ten or eleven. Wolverine was supposed to be the dark one back then, and he seemed to be trying to do better. Cyclops was the top student. When you see heroes do shit things for the first time it sticks with you. I never read the issue where Hank hits his wife so as an adult maybe I am able to disconnect from that instance better because I read comics differently as an adult.

 

[Woozies]

There is a very wide spectrum between "woke as hell, and marching in the street" and "card carrying racist." There's likely nothing you can do about someone gleefully attending Klan rallies, but the people who go about their lives simply not thinking about minority issues and living in a midwestern bubble are the people you want and need to reach doing stuff like this. And X-men isn't the only franchise that does this. Carnival Row (just finished watching this) does the same thing, but isn't billed explicitly as a story about race.

Metaphor has its uses, especially in film and literature.

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This feels contradictory as hell. "Well you'd never be able to convince people that gleefully attend Klan rallies, but you might be able to convince people who wouldn't even bother taking a second glance at a book with a black man on it."

Like come on.

 

[Manmademan]

This feels contradictory as hell. "Well you'd never be able to convince people that gleefully attend Klan rallies, but you might be able to convince people who wouldn't even bother taking a second glance at a book with a black man on it."

Like come on.

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You may want to get out of the house more if you don't understand the distinction between people who actively engage in and celebrate racism, and those people who live in a social and media bubble where minority issues simply aren't addressed.

 

[SageShinigami]

I was young when I read X-Factor. I was ten or eleven. Wolverine was supposed to be the dark one back then, and he seemed to be trying to do better. Cyclops was the top student. When you see heroes do shit things for the first time it sticks with you. I never read the issue where Hank hits his wife so as an adult maybe I am able to disconnect from that instance better because I read comics differently as an adult.

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I get that. You can tell no one from Marvel likes that period though, as no one ever even tries to explore it. Cyclops gets solo stories and they're about his father, or his relationship to other X-Men. No one talks about how he's a shit father himself or abandoned his wife who wound up being a clone or whatever.

This feels contradictory as hell. "Well you'd never be able to convince people that gleefully attend Klan rallies, but you might be able to convince people who wouldn't even bother taking a second glance at a book with a black man on it."

Like come on.

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I'ma be honest. Tossing allegory in the trash to beat me over the head with the problem straight out usually comes off as Very Special Episode to me, and I tend not to be a fan.

 

[Woozies]

You may want to get out of the house more if you don't understand the distinction between people who actively engage in and celebrate racism, and those people who live in a social and media bubble where minority issues simply aren't addressed.

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I understand the difference, but if their bubble is so restrictive that the very concept of even considering a book with minorities at a forefront(unless said minorities are an allegory that predominantly look like them). Man that's a step beyond there aren't any books about people of color for this Midwestern family to digest.

 

[Deleted member 59339]

I would love to be proven wrong, but I don't trust the MCU to go as hard in tackling more controversial themes as the comics. I expect it to be similar to how Stark's drinking problem is toned down significantly in the movies.

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I dunno. Within a short period of time, I saw a lot of movies like BlacKkKlansman, Sorry to Bother You, Blindspotting, Moonlight, and If Beale Street Could Talk, and I feel like Black Panther totally belongs in that crowd. It's as interesting and thoughtful a piece of black cinema as anything going on in the indies right now.

 

[MHWilliams]

I just need Falcon and Winter Soldier to have a scene where Sam and Bucky try to figure out how Cap threw the shield with such goddamn precision.

 

[R0b1n]

At the same time though, Daredevil Season 1 and 3, Jessica Jones season 1, and the first half of Luke Cage season 1 before diamondback shows up are WAY better than 90% of the MCU. Note: I never got more than a couple episodes into Punisher so I can't say if that was good or not.

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I can agree with this, but I worry that the TV shows being more closely associated with the MCU would cause the content to be..."softened". Not to say grit and edginess is always good, but some properties need that edge to work well

Which is also why I'm not excited for MCU moon knight until I see further details

 

[Manmademan]

I'ma be honest. Tossing allegory in the trash to beat me over the head with the problem straight out usually comes off as Very Special Episode to me, and I tend not to be a fan.

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Right. when not done well, the blunt approach comes off as preachy (the "very special episode" problem) or dishonest.

But even when it is, racism is a very uncomfortable topic for a lot of people and 9 times out of 10 the people who need blunt education on the subject will simply avoid becoming uncomfortable and refuse to read it. Metaphor and allegory are useful because it allows you to make the same point and address these issues without taking people out of that comfort zone.

You're not going to comprehensively educate someone about Race In America that way, but it IS a good way to begin the dialogue and get people thinking about people unlike themselves. That's it.

 

[Vic_Viper]

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I really want the Snyder cut to come out, just so people will stfu about it lol

 

[GringoSuave89]

I just need Falcon and Winter Soldier to have a scene where Sam and Bucky try to figure out how Cap threw the shield with such goddamn precision.

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Im honestly putting a lot of faith into that show. The themes and stories they could cover with such a wide range of topics is just exciting. Really hope they captialize on it.

 

[Canucked]

I just need Falcon and Winter Soldier to have a scene where Sam and Bucky try to figure out how Cap threw the shield with such goddamn precision.

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I'm interested in YOUR version of the show now, more than the actual show.

 

[R0b1n]

I dunno. Within a short period of time, I saw a lot of movies like BlacKkKlansman, Sorry to Bother You, Blindspotting, Moonlight, and If Beale Street Could Talk, and I feel like Black Panther totally belongs in that crowd. It's as interesting and thoughtful a piece of black cinema as anything going on in the indies right now.

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I'll first make the distinction that I'm not black. Still, I distinctly got a differently feeling from black panther than moonlight for example. Moonlight is far more focused on actually exploring the topic it wants to tackle and does it with far more depth and nuance. Black Panther just didn't do it enough imo, colonialism was only mentioned off hand once or twice, and the effects of isolationalism boiled down to a villain who just had to go to the extreme so you can feel better when you root for his defeat. Too much time is spent on action scenes. One part it does do very well is the afrofuturism.

I'm not saying the comics do this better as I'm not very experienced with BP in comics, but BP compared to those other movies just don't really stack up imo.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

I just need Falcon and Winter Soldier to have a scene where Sam and Bucky try to figure out how Cap threw the shield with such goddamn precision.

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at a minimum you know there's gonna be a bit where sam whiffs a throw and has a line about it

 

[Violet]

I've said this a million times but I basically view the MCU movies as a completely different thing than the comics, for better or worse.

(i also don't love them but I'm not offended by their existence either)

 

[Vic_Viper]

That's not the Court of Owls symbol. Ra's Al Ghul?

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Yea the Court of Owls logo was on some shirts they were wearing a few months ago at some Cons. Not sure what this is. There was one that looked like it was a Ras logo yesterday.

Really hope this is announced tomorrow or at NYCC. Been way too long of a wait!

 

[Manmademan]

I understand the difference, but if their bubble is so restrictive that the very concept of even considering a book with minorities at a forefront(unless said minorities are an allegory that predominantly look like them). Man that's a step beyond there aren't any books about people of color for this Midwestern family to digest.

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a very, very large percentage of white america lives in exactly this kind of bubble. a full 3/4 of white americans have exactly zero non-white friends.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/25/three-quarters-of-whites-dont-have-any-non-white-friends/

For these people, they engage with media and entertainment that is similar to what they know and are comfortable with. They'll listen to country, but not hip-hop. They get their information from Fox news. They'll read books and literature with protagonists that look similar to themselves, but minority literature is "for someone else."

In 1963 when Xmen #1 first was printed, that 3/4 number was probably more like 99%, and legal segregation was still a thing.

These are the people you need to reach with allegory and metaphor. You can't just throw them a copy of Between the World and Me and expect them to pick it up and devour it.

 

[Deleted member 59339]

I'll first make the distinction that I'm not black. Still, I distinctly got a differently feeling from black panther than moonlight for example. Moonlight is far more focused on actually exploring the topic it wants to tackle and does it with far more depth and nuance. Black Panther just didn't do it enough imo, colonialism was only mentioned off hand once or twice, and the effects of isolationalism boiled down to a villain who just had to go to the extreme so you can feel better when you root for his defeat. Too much time is spent on action scenes. One part it does do very well is the afrofuturism.

I'm not saying the comics do this better as I'm not very experienced with BP in comics, but BP compared to those other movies just don't really stack up imo.

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I think Black Panther is a very compelling look at the idea of the potential of groups of people being limited by their access to resources, with some pretty real debates on what responsibility a place like Wakanda should have towards the larger global population of black people.

It focuses on the idea that denial of resources is a serious issue, and it's a movie that basically ends by depicting the ultimate heroism as not being punching and kicking the bad guy, but rather making the decision to address the lack of resources for communities in need.

It's a movie talking about systemic issues, and the effects of those issues over many years, when a superhero movie trying to deal with race could have so easily been about being up a group of racists and acting like things are fine now.

I love a movie dealing with these topics that actually tries to look at systemic issues.

And I will say that I'm not black either.

For whatever context this might provide to the bullshit I say in the future, I'm a white cis lesbian woman.