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Communities of Hate: Crusader Kings 2 and it’s role White Supremecy
- Thread starter BringBackSonics
- Start date
I am not trying to shut to the conversation. I am just annoyed how it is always the Grand Strategy community the one that ends up being labelled as being pro-alt right and racist when they have been in the forefront of fighting racism and alt right in gaming for years. They are continuosly adapting to the new memes of the alt right trying to make sure they do not feel confortable in any of the mainstream communities.
They are also quite open in opening history games in a non-"white male point of view", taking the emphasis on what history was normally looked as.
Yet, people like you (and well general opinion) always ends up being "Grand Strategy fans are in majority racist and alt-right people" which just gets annoying. All major GS communities work hard to stop it and yet they still have that stereotype.
The conversation is never: "GS communities fight hard to avoid alt-right feeling confortable", it is always "GS communities breed hate" (such as calling them "communities of hate").
It's good that Paradox is proactive is trying to make their communities welcome. Unfortunately, anything backwards looking or historical is gonna have a contingent of alt right bullshit since those movements are largely backwards looking, rose tinted glasses in nature
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Hard to have a honest conversation when articles and stories keep on coming out painting the entire Community with broad strokes. No one really wants to have that dialogue.
Pretty much this, Paradox and the official and semi-official communities have done more than most to combat hate, bigotry and alt-right infestation, there isn't a lot more they can do other than just not make historical based games (hell, even Stellaris attracts these types and it's got little to no basis in history being sci-fi and all so they would need to just stop making grand strategy games in general) anymore which, IMHO, is not really a solution. I honestly don't see a solution for this, there will always be these types of people gravitating towards games that let them manipulate the world to their desired worldview. This doesn't mean tolerate them, they should be fought at every step but it does mean there will always be some form of this, no matter how hard the dev's and community fight to weed it out. Which they've done pretty well so far and will only get better at now that the reddit communities moderation is getting even tighter.
White supremacists fucking love anything from which they can get a very light, surface-level sense of premodern European history, so yeah, a game that focuses pretty exclusively on sort of noble bloodline politics in medieval Europe with the Crusades as a backdrop is right up their alley. That's not really the game's fault any more than it's art historians' fault when alt-right loser start slapping images of Greek statues in all of their avatars, but it's definitely a real phenomenon. The devs should definitely have to publicly distance themselves from it, and look for opportunities to inject people of color into it in roles other than as enemies for Crusaders, but also I'm sure if they did there would be modded versions out there the next day
What is your solution, then, since the devs are constantly fighting against this stuff and also being more inclusive? Stop making these games?
Thats what paradox has been doing...
You've been able to play as Muslims in CK2 since 2012. Nowadays characters as far south as Ethiopia and Mali and as far east as India and Tibet are playable.
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And that's the misconception, that ck2 is all about white Christians defeating the Muslims. With subsequent DLCs they have added the ability to play Muslim religions, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. that you can play Indian, Tibetan, Persian, African etc
I meant in their other Grand Strategy games (and have done that before they bought HBS)
They've done a pretty good job at distancing themselves from the far-right side of the fanbase for what it's worth, not perfect but pretty good. As for the second point, every major expansion for their games has expanded the non-western European civilisations and cultures in some way both major and minor. (Excepting maybe HoI4 though that is debatable)
Heck for a couple of examples from CK2, their first major DLC was entirely focused around Islam;
Sword of Islam
Rajas of India added the entire Indian subcontinent as well as expanded on several other regions.
Horse Lords greatly expanded on the nomadic tribes of central and eastern Europe/West Asia.
Jade Dragon greatly expanded on the Eastern religions and cultures as well as adding Tibet and off-map Ming Dynasty.
It's not like PDX are pandering to Alt-Right and White Power types in any way shape or form.
I read this article and I realized I can't completely find fault in it. I mean, maybe those communities do exist, I wouldn't know.
I will say, it always seems bizarre to me that people would use CK2 as a vehicle for that, since race and "Whiteness" is such a small thing in the game. The "Crusaders" in the crusader king are A: just a small part of the game. AS others say, there are somthing like a dozen major religions playable now and B: they routinely lose to Muslim nations over the course of the game. Likewise the Ottomans will often dominate EU4 games. Paradox's bias is mostly making Sweden OP :p They don't give that many benefits to "Whiteness"
Race isn't even a THING in CK2, really. I mean, there are white person portraits but other than appearance is does nothing. All the appearances tend to mix over the course of the game.
I will say, it always seems bizarre to me that people would use CK2 as a vehicle for that, since race and "Whiteness" is such a small thing in the game. The "Crusaders" in the crusader king are A: just a small part of the game. AS others say, there are somthing like a dozen major religions playable now and B: they routinely lose to Muslim nations over the course of the game. Likewise the Ottomans will often dominate EU4 games. Paradox's bias is mostly making Sweden OP :p They don't give that many benefits to "Whiteness"
Race isn't even a THING in CK2, really. I mean, there are white person portraits but other than appearance is does nothing. All the appearances tend to mix over the course of the game.
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Their Publisher/owner is Paradox. So are Paradox communities Toxic or inclusive?
The answer is: it has nothing to do with the game you play or what type of game it is.
apart from that, CK2 also has more races, sexualities, genders, and regions.
really obvious who has played the game and who is posting in bad faith here. come on.
historical games often face an uphill battle with pockets of their communities, but at least do some cursory research on what the game actually is before shooting off about how to fix it. CK2 has vast options for play beyond being the holy roman empire.
historical games often face an uphill battle with pockets of their communities, but at least do some cursory research on what the game actually is before shooting off about how to fix it. CK2 has vast options for play beyond being the holy roman empire.
It might seem completely off topic but this reminds me of when people complain about missing Pokémon features when they are already in the games for ages.
I don't know how someone reads this article and walks away from it going "b-b-but not ALL gamers". Like, get some perspective. It's possible to enjoy Paradox games while recognising that its subject matter attracts problematic fandoms within their communities--rather than denying this and deflecting for them, accept it, confront it, and try to make the overall Paradox community better by rejecting them.
Gamers, do not rise up. Criticising a game or a part of its fandom is not an attack on you, the gamer, unless you think you're part of these problematic aspects.
Gamers, do not rise up. Criticising a game or a part of its fandom is not an attack on you, the gamer, unless you think you're part of these problematic aspects.
So did you even read the thread and see the facts that Paradox and many of its related communities do in fact moderate against this kind of rhetoric?
Let me put it this way. Heavy metal music has a small but active neo nazi/white supremacist community. There are reasons why they gravitate towards the genre. There are things metal fans/bands can do to make the scene less welcoming to these groups, but they're slow to address the issue (broadly speaking, but you could always check out Neckbeard Deathcamp!) I still love the genre, and know that my character isn't reflected poorly upon by these bad folks. I know people aren't going about their day pondering these issues.
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Reddit, not particularly in the ck2 subreddit. But you do see a lot of ck2 memes on T_D threads and other alt-right stuff that comes up on the front page now and then.
yep, they even added those crazy fun to play as zunbils
everything you're asking for here is being done and has been being done for like, almost a decade. pound for pound CK2 probably features the most diverse options for historical fantasy of any game in the genre. the official forums are extremely well policed. the developers are pretty clearly keenly aware of the kinds of fans medieval history stuff can attract and have actively broadened the scope of the game over the years in response.
with a theme that's catnip to white supremacists and mostly selling a platform that openly supports white supremacist communities, reviews, etc, it's not really a surprise, or, in particular, CK2's fault.
Also, wow, just read past OP. resetera bans people for saying that steam supports/tolerates white supremacy? seriously? the staff should be ashamed that anger directed towards the enablers of racist violence is considered "trolling" here.
Also, wow, just read past OP. resetera bans people for saying that steam supports/tolerates white supremacy? seriously? the staff should be ashamed that anger directed towards the enablers of racist violence is considered "trolling" here.
That's what people are trying to say though? We HAVE rejected them. It's been years since the PDX forums enacted incredibly strict moderation on the forums with regards to anything even slightly resembling right-wing rhetoric or bigotry, the subreddits were heavily moderated for explicit bigotry and alt-right espousing, the only thing they were hesitant on was heavily moderating were memes but that's now changed as well. What else can be done? This is not "Not all gamers" situation but an unfortunate side effect of anything related to history or the ability to manipulate a world to one's worldview. A side effect that is being countered in pretty much every way possible apart from just not developing grand strategy games. They're literally doing everything within both reason and their ability to make these communities as welcoming and friendly as possible, what else do people want them to do?
This is completely different than Grand Strategy focused subreddits doing those things. There could be posters on T_D using God of War pictures to spout nonsense, it would have nothing to do with the God of war community as a whole.
My take is this:
Paradox has been quite aggressive on addressing these issues,.
One of my favourite games ever is EU IV. A game caught between a drive for historical authenticity and alternative histories. A game trying to map out the complexity of world history, but needing to limit things - cos gameplay - to 'how big a blob can you get?'. Slave trade, cultural hegemony, effective atrocities and eradication of nations/states/tribes, colonialism, etc etc. It's a giant morass of hideousness from one perspective, and from another it's SO DAMN COMPELLING.
I can easily how such games suck in people who have... issues. I find the dissonances described in my initial sentences above fascinating, more than anything.
EU IV does have this. It's just that, as it tries to ape the trends of history, European powers are gonna dominate most places. What that means for the player is down to them and their... issues.
I can easily how such games suck in people who have... issues. I find the dissonances described in my initial sentences above fascinating, more than anything.
EU IV does have this. It's just that, as it tries to ape the trends of history, European powers are gonna dominate most places. What that means for the player is down to them and their... issues.
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Yeah.... I'm okay with this.
It'd be easy to knee jerk this and say "THIS IS JUST LIKE WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT MORTAL KOMBAT!" But I don't think that's what's going on here.
I mean, I'm sure there are some people who think Crusader Kings 2 has you spawn as a crusader and start murdering brown people, but what are you gonna do? As long as they don't raise too much of a fuss.
It'd be easy to knee jerk this and say "THIS IS JUST LIKE WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT MORTAL KOMBAT!" But I don't think that's what's going on here.
I mean, I'm sure there are some people who think Crusader Kings 2 has you spawn as a crusader and start murdering brown people, but what are you gonna do? As long as they don't raise too much of a fuss.
Even better! People have bad takes all the time. Don't let them get to you.
Yeah, this case is just a combination of already being fed up off the whole "GS fans are mostly a bunch of racist alt-right people" and the fucking terrorist taking ownership of a mythical founding king of my "nation" by putting his name in the weapons (and thus making me feel fucking dirty).
This is my opinion as well. I love grand strategy games, and love history in general, but it absolutely attracts the righties. The History channel devolved into Hitler documentaries and conspiracy shows for a reason. Paradox has done a great job of not just fighting back, but marginalizing that aspect of their community as much as possible, but ultimately the issue is much bigger than them.
From reading the thread I'm really glad that Paradox and all of the strategy communities have been taking these sorts of things seriously and some all they can to try to curate and guide their people.
Like everyone's been saying the genre can really be a magnet to fuckheads thanks so I think that the image of these sorts of games will always be tainted by them; but I hope the people trying to push against them get the focus that they deserve instead of trying to propagate the narrative of grand strategy as a white nationalist hell hole.
Like everyone's been saying the genre can really be a magnet to fuckheads thanks so I think that the image of these sorts of games will always be tainted by them; but I hope the people trying to push against them get the focus that they deserve instead of trying to propagate the narrative of grand strategy as a white nationalist hell hole.