Communities of Hate: Crusader Kings 2 and it’s role White Supremecy

BringBackSonics · Mar 16, 2019

Honestly this feels like how it was back in the 90s/2000s when political leaders and pundits blamed games like Call of Duty, Grand Theft Auto and rap groups like NWA as being the cause/reason behind violence.

I wonder what kind of data was used to come up with this conclusion, it's frustrating as an active player in these kinds of games that you have fight much of the misconceptions

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article...s-the-new-zealand-shooter-used-to-communicate

Perry says that many white supremacists like to hang out on video-game platforms like Steam and play "Crusader Kings" together. "It offers a narrative reinforcement of the idea of Europe filled with white people, in a patriarchal society," said Perry. "Most people playing 'Crusader Kings' are not about to go and shoot up a mosque, but it's a movement within this culture, and it catches people who are already on their way to being radicalized. "

Rodjer · Mar 16, 2019

The alt-right and the white supremacists are everywhere, they are not only on Steam and they don't play only RTS or historical games.

Steel · Mar 16, 2019

As a huge fan of Crusader Kings 2 I can honestly say that the grand strat audience has its fair share of that type.

That being said, anyone who's played any other game in open chat can tell you that that's hardly unique or genre specific.

Amibguous Cad · Mar 16, 2019

NoblesseOblige · Mar 16, 2019

Perry says that many white supremacists like to hang out on video-game platforms like Steam

Steam has long belonged to the white supremacists and nazis of the world. The community is trash. Valve is too fucking complacent, either out of cowardice, or something worse.

BlueOdin · Mar 16, 2019

NoblesseOblige said:
Steam has long belonged to the white supremacists.

~~Nintendo of America removed gay relationships from Tomadachi Life for the West release~~ and fired Alison Rapp after she was victim of a Gamergate campaign. Does Nintendo of America belong to White Supremacists?

Edit.: I misremembered that part.

dude · Mar 16, 2019

I've played grand-start for a long time, and I while there are some people like that in the community - You can sadly find them in almost every gaming community these days. Singling out CK2/Grand-Strat games is disingenuous.

NoblesseOblige said:
Steam has long belonged to the white supremacists and nazis of the world. The community is trash. Valve is too fucking complacent, either out of cowardice, or something worse.

Oh fucking please. Back that bullshit up or don't spew it.

Rodjer · Mar 16, 2019

NoblesseOblige said:
Steam has long belonged to the white supremacists and nazis of the world

Like clockwork.

Armaros · Mar 16, 2019

NoblesseOblige said:
Steam has long belonged to the white supremacists and nazis of the world. The community is trash. Valve is too fucking complacent, either out of cowardice, or something worse.

Why did you cut off the rest of the sentence?

Perry says that many white supremacists like to hang out on video-game platforms like Steam and play "Crusader Kings" together.

The topic is Crusader Kings, there is no evidence the killers used Steam Communites to discuss their hate.

Your framing of the article is disnengeous as hell.

NoblesseOblige · Mar 16, 2019

Armaros said:
Why did you cut off the rest of the sentence?

Because I was speaking about the platform Steam. The thing that's been infected with far/alt-right ideologues for years. Sorry if that wasn't obvious.

EdibleKnife · Mar 16, 2019

Steel said:
As a huge fan of Crusader Kings 2 I can honestly say that the grand strat audience has its fair share of that type.

That being said, anyone who's played any other game in open chat can tell you that that's hardly unique or genre specific.

Right. There's simply a general trend of white supremacists being obsessed with """White"""" history which is why such games like CK2 focused on those supposed golden days appeal to them. Three Arrows and Shaun are both progressive YT personalities who go in depth into topics related to the alt right and very often they have videos regarding how white supremacists use and manipulate history to paint the picture they want of a white race poisoned by the inclusion of immigrants or general forward progress and equality. Like there's really a lot of these kinds of videos. Alt-righters/white supremacists love to absorb history and misuse it to bolster their bs:

(PS the above are videos debunking and addressing the misuse and abuse of history by alt-righters. They aren't videos from alt-righter individuals themselves)

eonden · Mar 16, 2019

I want to point out that Paradox bans any racist content in their forum and are quite proponent on not allowing it to fester the community.
They also have gone a long way in inclusion of women on their games (it should be better improved but sadly history was mostly written by men).

BernardoOne · Mar 16, 2019

NoblesseOblige said:
Steam has long belonged to the white supremacists and nazis of the world. The community is trash. Valve is too fucking complacent, either out of cowardice, or something worse.

Is that why they banned thousands of those groups in recent years?

Armaros · Mar 16, 2019

NoblesseOblige said:
Because I was speaking about the platform Steam. Sorry if it wasn't obvious.

Which is not what the article is about? It doesn't even single out Steam, it just mentions that Crusader Kings and similar games are on Steam,

strudelkuchen · Mar 16, 2019

Seems relevant: Valve Removes Over 100 Steam Tributes to Suspected New Zealand Shooter

eonden · Mar 16, 2019

https://old.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/b1dz7s/lets_take_our_good_name_back_we_need_to_talk/

Also.

SaberVS7 · Mar 16, 2019

But Paradox instabans anyone who makes Islamaphobic posts on their forums, and after the shooting a few days ago all the community-run subreddits for their games adopted the same strict policy too.

The Grand Strategy Community is not a welcoming home for White Supremacists.

Glio · Mar 16, 2019

I hate to admit it because I love their games, but the fandoms of Paradox and Game Workshop are full of alt-right people, it's not a secret to anyone.

Alavard · Mar 16, 2019

"It offers a narrative reinforcement of the idea of Europe filled with white people, in a patriarchal society,"

As a CKII fan, it's really disappointing to hear this is happening, since the devs have gone out of their way to not just focus on the white parts of Europe, but have added so much content for so many other cultures.

eonden · Mar 16, 2019

Glio said:
I hate to admit it because I love their games, but the fandoms of Paradox and Game Workshop are full of alt-right people, it's not a secret to anyone.

But the devs and all public relations of the games clearly ban anyone who acts racist and they have done a ton of work in being more inclusive of women in the game (despite sadly not having that much historical basis due to history being mostly written by men).

Deleted member 15476 · Mar 16, 2019

They'll need to define those communities, since those type of individuals are not welcome on paradox plaza or the relevant subreddits

Glio · Mar 16, 2019

eonden said:
But the devs and all public relations of the games clearly ban anyone who acts racist and they have done a ton of work in being more inclusive of women in the game (despite sadly not having that much historical basis due to history being mostly written by men).

If I do not say that it is the fault of Paradox itself, but the reality is what it is.

Arkanim94 · Mar 16, 2019

It's a sad reality for games that let you roleplay nations/noble families.

EdibleKnife · Mar 16, 2019

Alavard said:
As a CKII fan, it's really disappointing to hear this is happening, since the devs have gone out of their way to not just focus on the white parts of Europe, but have added so much content for so many other cultures.

Yep. It's not Paradox's fault. It's simply a feature of white supremacy to be drawn toward subjects about Anglo-Saxon history and conquests. Same thing was around with The Witcher 3 and Kingdom Come and a few of the old war Battlefield games; i.e. people who come out of the wood work to praise and defend the "authenticity" of the settings

eonden · Mar 16, 2019

Glio said:
If I do not say that it is the fault of Paradox itself, but the reality is what it is.

But all major communities of their games do not allow any of that type of content for years. Saying "communities of hate" for a videogame company that has tried to squash as much as possible those elements both from the games and their controlled communities is just areally bad generalization.

You might as well say that most online games have a racist community taking into account how toxic they can be (and what they say with the microphone open).

Glio · Mar 16, 2019

eonden said:
But all major communities of their games do not allow any of that type of content for years. Saying "communities of hate" for a videogame company that has tried to squash as much as possible those elements both from the games and their controlled communities is just areally bad generalization.

You might as well say that most online games have a racist community taking into account how toxic they can be (and what they say with the microphone open).

Already, but there are games, genres and themes that resonate more with these people.

Historical strategy is one of them. I would say it is practically inevitable.

DaciaJC · Mar 16, 2019

Rodjer said:
Like clockwork.

Yep, the usual suspects.

Tygre · Mar 16, 2019

Glio said:
I hate to admit it because I love their games, but the fandoms of Paradox and Game Workshop are full of alt-right people, it's not a secret to anyone.

Yep. Huge fan too, but this lines up 100%

People are keen to gloss over or deny this or say "oh, the nazis and alt-right are in all groups" but that's not helpful.

"Historical" gaming that focuses on European history is a huge hot-bed for white nationalists, just like "civil war re-enacters" who have an odd passion for the South.

It's not about blame, it's about facing up to reality. These places are breeding ground for white nationalists and white nationalism. I'm not saying if you play a Paradox game you should be put on a list... but the authorities should definitely be keeping an eye on these communities.

Bufbaf · Mar 16, 2019

So can't these creators do something against that part of their playerbase, starting with obvious chat filters and moderation and harsh bans for online names and communities? Openly address the issue and distance themselves? Keeping a hard watch over their community forums and sites?

I believe that "not all of the fans" are hardcore racists, but I mean, is it too crazy to imagine they could do at least something if they wanted?

BernardoOne · Mar 16, 2019

Bufbaf said:
So can't these creators do something against that part of their playerbase, starting with obvious chat filters and moderation and harsh bans for online names and communities? Openly address the issue and distance themselves? Keeping a hard watch over their community forums and sites?

I believe that "not all of the fans" are hardcore racists, but I mean, is it too crazy to imagine they could do at least something if they wanted?

Paradox has done every single one of those

eonden · Mar 16, 2019

Tygre said:
Yep. Huge fan too, but this lines up 100%

People are keen to gloss over or deny this or say "oh, the nazis and alt-right are in all groups" but that's not helpful.

"Historical" gaming that focuses on European history is a huge hot-bed for white nationalists, just like "civil war re-enacters" who have an odd passion for the South.

It's not about blame, it's about facing up to reality. These places are breeding ground for white nationalists and white nationalism. I'm not saying if you play a Paradox game you should be put on a list... but the authorities should definitely be keeping an eye on these communities.

All the major communities have made clear that they do not accept any of white nationalism conversation and immeditely ban you if you do that.

You can say that racist people play this game because they sadly feel linked to the theme (a theme that Paradox does not play to, and have actively avoided focusing on a white men vision of history), but you cannot say "Communities of hate" when all the major Grand Strategy communities have made clear that in no way of form is alt-right allowed

Prolepro · Mar 16, 2019

Being a Total War, Warhammer, and For Honor fan means running into this a lot.

Any PC-primary community seems to be particularly prone to it too.

eonden · Mar 16, 2019

Bufbaf said:
So can't these creators do something against that part of their playerbase, starting with obvious chat filters and moderation and harsh bans for online names and communities? Openly address the issue and distance themselves? Keeping a hard watch over their community forums and sites?

I believe that "not all of the fans" are hardcore racists, but I mean, is it too crazy to imagine they could do at least something if they wanted?

Thats what they do! Grand Strategy communities have focused on not allowing this type of conversation on this forums, banning anyone that shows an alt-right point of view.
Paradox has also addressed the issue and have distanced from it, pushing for a better representation of other non-white male people in their games.

eonden · Mar 16, 2019

JaeCryo said:
Being a Total War, Warhammer, and For Honor fan means running into this a lot.

Any PC-primary community seems to be particularly prone to it too.

Sadly, it isnt only PC gaming, but gaming in general.

Edit: If i sound angry is because I am pretty fucking annoyed at how despite Grand Strategy and RTS community doing great work to try and get rid of alt-right people with more emphasis than other communities (which is understandable, as the game topic does attract more of those assholes), they still get labelled as alt-right and toxic, and it seems to be hip to just brand any GS player as alt-right.

LudicrousSpeed · Mar 16, 2019

Kotaku had a story last year about some of the toxicity in the mod scene for Paradox games: The Struggle Over Gamers Who Use Mods To Create Racist Alternate Histories

If Paradox and the community has cleaned up their act since then, I'd love to hear it. But the shit being spewed in this article by people who should frankly know better was disturbing at the time. Stuff like this:

The makers of these games are aware of the issues but have so far exercised a fairly light touch, partially as a matter of resources and partially as a strategic way to avoid giving extra attention to the worst in their community. Hearts of Iron IV game director Dan Lind told me that in 99 out of 100 cases, Paradox won't squash out mods for objectionable content, and the company is instead inclined to "let the community decide whether they want to play a mod or not." "There is always a risk that a zero-tolerance approach makes martyrs in a community that has shown itself very able to mobilize petty grievances and overwhelm the conversation," he says. "It comes down to observation and intuition in most cases, and whether a mod is using a game as creative context, or as an excuse to offend."

That's a creative spin on the usual sort of game publisher cowardice towards the toxicity in their fanbase, but extra bad because of the unique draw that grand strategy seems to have on fascists.

Lausebub · Mar 16, 2019

I have been watching a lot oof the developepr streams on Imperator Rome and I noticced, that a lot of the leaders and generals were female, so I wonder how that will go down, after the thing with Rome 2.

BringBackSonics · Mar 16, 2019

Alavard said:
As a CKII fan, it's really disappointing to hear this is happening, since the devs have gone out of their way to not just focus on the white parts of Europe, but have added so much content for so many other cultures.

That is what's kind of harmful that CK2= white supremacy haven. Pretty much most DLC have added things such as different races (play as Muslim!) or regions (play as Buddhist King of Tibet). Also have been mentioned the paradox communities have been on top of most of the harmful things that people try to post

EdibleKnife · Mar 16, 2019

Lausebub said:
I have been watching a lot oof the developepr streams on Imperator Rome and I noticced, that a lot of the leaders and generals were female, so I wonder how that will go down, after the thing with Rome 2.

It will probably be the same way bigots reacted when Battlefield V included women.

Alavard · Mar 16, 2019

Lausebub said:
I have been watching a lot oof the developepr streams on Imperator Rome and I noticced, that a lot of the leaders and generals were female, so I wonder how that will go down, after the thing with Rome 2.

The good news is that Paradox has previously shown they are entirely fine if 'fans' leave because of their inclusion, because they don't want those types of fans. A few years ago on International Women's Day, they added a free addon for EUIV that added a bunch of new historical female characters and leader. There was a tiny backlash of 'where the International Men's Day content?'. Paradox posted a reply that it was called 'Europa Universalis IV' (the base game itself).

eonden · Mar 16, 2019

Lausebub said:
I have been watching a lot oof the developepr streams on Imperator Rome and I noticced, that a lot of the leaders and generals were female, so I wonder how that will go down, after the thing with Rome 2.

Most of their games have the ability to play as a female leader (in CK2 you can pass laws to allow total Equality and there are rules to put that as a general condition in the beginning). In Imperator, you can change rules to also make women have a leaders

Bufbaf · Mar 16, 2019

eonden said:
Thats what they do! Grand Strategy communities have focused on not allowing this type of conversation on this forums, banning anyone that shows an alt-right point of view.
Paradox has also addressed the issue and have distanced from it, pushing for a better representation of other non-white male people in their games.

BernardoOne said:
Paradox has done every single one of those

That's cool then! I honestly didn't know, good for them. Here's hoping it helps at least a bit.

Avis · Mar 16, 2019

JaeCryo said:
Being a Total War, Warhammer, and For Honor fan means running into this a lot.

Any PC-primary community seems to be particularly prone to it too.

Yep. Darkest dungeon and dark souls too. Generally all those medieval fantasy game communities almagamate into a big racist troll pile. Shame cause I love these games.

Edit: mount and blade, and chivelry too

BringBackSonics · Mar 16, 2019

itsamiracle said:
They'll need to define those communities, since those type of individuals are not welcome on paradox plaza or the relevant subreddits

Honestly that's what I'm looking for, maybe separate out it a minute instead of using a broad brush for the whole Community

eonden · Mar 16, 2019

BringBackSonics said:
Honestly that's what I'm looking for, maybe separate out it a minute instead of using a broad brush for the whole Community

Yeah, I have no issue saying that those games (sadly) attract alt-right population. But the main communities and publishers (sure, they can hang out in 4chan and 8 chan I guess) have done a lot (and much more than most gaming media) to make sure they know they are not welcome.

Saying "communities of hate" is what gets me.

golyjanek · Mar 16, 2019

Earlier today (or was it yesterday?) I saw on Reddit an analysis of how often certain terms associated with this attack were used on different subreddits and I was surprised that apart of all usual suspects (t_d and other hate subreddits) there were virtually all Paradox-related subreddits. I happen to know most top execs behind the publisher's success and they couldn't be further away from those hate-filled supremacists.

Zeno · Mar 16, 2019

JaeCryo said:
Being a Total War, Warhammer, and For Honor fan means running into this a lot.

Any PC-primary community seems to be particularly prone to it too.

Yeah. I remember the alt-right members on an old forum I used to browse all being big fans of Warhammer. I've never known much about the game series though.

LifeLine · Mar 16, 2019

I'm a huge CK2 fan and I can't deny the fan base has a big alt right overlap.

medyej · Mar 16, 2019

eonden said:
https://old.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/b1dz7s/lets_take_our_good_name_back_we_need_to_talk/

Also.

This is really good and encouraging. Many of the comments rightfully pointing out that all these memes and in-jokes in these communities are just used to disguise real hate, and people are finally noticing that.

The grand strategy community has a bad rep because of these assholes, but stuff like this could eventually turn that around.

Tygre · Mar 16, 2019

eonden said:
All the major communities have made clear that they do not accept any of white nationalism conversation and immeditely ban you if you do that.

You can say that racist people play this game because they sadly feel linked to the theme (a theme that Paradox does not play to, and have actively avoided focusing on a white men vision of history), but you cannot say "Communities of hate" when all the major Grand Strategy communities have made clear that in no way of form is alt-right allowed

eonden said:
Sadly, it isnt only PC gaming, but gaming in general.

Edit: If i sound angry is because I am pretty fucking annoyed at how despite Grand Strategy and RTS community doing great work to try and get rid of alt-right people with more emphasis than other communities (which is understandable, as the game topic does attract more of those assholes), they still get labelled as alt-right and toxic, and it seems to be hip to just brand any GS player as alt-right.

Your defensiveness, while understandable, is not helpful.

Brushing this off as "gaming in general" ignores the specific and unique reasons why white nationalists are drawn to Warhammer or Crusader Kings or Chivalry or Europa Universalis or whatever.

It's great that some of the developers and communities involved are trying to combat the bigotry that is drawn to them, but it's also not enough to say "job done, problem solved" because it's not.

This is a conversation that is valid and that needs to happen, and trying to shut down that conversation is not acceptable.

BringBackSonics · Mar 16, 2019

LifeLine said:
I'm a huge CK2 fan and I can't deny the fan base has a big alt right overlap.

Where are you seeing this? Pdxplaza? Pdx Reddit's?

Communities of Hate: Crusader Kings 2 and it’s role White Supremecy

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