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matcha pocky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
276
has anybody been keeping up with the latest drama in the community involving mafia? honestly disgusting that some people in this community are defending the decision

i haven't gone to a tourney in the past 2-3 months and shit like this just makes me want to stay at home and play netplay instead
 
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Chaosblade

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,596
I haven't followed it but I know there has been pushback on it. Which is good. Think I saw some TO's will still enforce the ban?

Saw Ginger had a video on it and he nailed it. He continues to be one of my favorite players, good player and a good person.
 

Khaos Prime

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,857
Maybe I would support a wobbling ban if ICs were winning every tourney, but an ICs never won a major and don't even make top 8 that often.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,685
Maybe I would support a wobbling ban if ICs were winning every tourney, but an ICs never won a major and don't even make top 8 that often.

"they need it" doesn't mean its not a broken and toxic mechanic. Their disparity in placements at tournaments going from losing in pools to top 8's shows how busted it is for balance.
 
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Chaosblade

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,596
ICs don't even really need wobbling, handoff combos can 0 to death but actually have defensive player interaction, like nearly any other combo in the game. But those don't get developed by modern ICs players because wobbling is easier.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
46,991
the goal in the iceys matchup, whether wobbling is legal or not, is still "keep them separated, don't get grabbed"

whether my opponent wobbles me or does a handoff really makes no difference. if i'm in that position in the first place, i fucked up.

iceys have an infinite. that's their gimmick. they are not broken because of wobbling, nothing about it is broken, or else iceys would actually win tournaments. if you lose to iceys that wobble, you need to get better at the matchup. like... the players that eliminate the icey players from every tournament. lol
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,685
the goal in the iceys matchup, whether wobbling is legal or not, is still "keep them separated, don't get grabbed"

whether my opponent wobbles me or does a handoff really makes no difference. if i'm in that position in the first place, i fucked up.

iceys have an infinite. that's their gimmick. they are not broken because of wobbling, nothing about it is broken, or else iceys would actually win tournaments. if you lose to iceys that wobble, you need to get better at the matchup. like... the players that eliminate the icey players from every tournament. lol

I made a video to show what it looks like without the disruptive single player rhythm game
I don't blame players for giving up on Melee when it still has that kind of junk legal. My friend stopped attending because its about the least fun thing in the game to have to sit there while the fighting game becomes a single player rhythm game and all of the momentum comes to a complete halt "because they need it" or "u just need to get gud". I guess people like Plup also just needed to get gud when he got 3-0 largely by wobbling.

Even without the gross aspect of having only 1 player playing the game for 10 seconds its still a completely lopsided punish in a game that requires you to be playing at 300APM with some characters while L cancelling, compared to something like rest that's at least a risk reward.

Its truly a shame that completely lopsided infinites are allowed simply because the character isnt as good without them.

edit: Apparently wobbling got banned in Tennessee? Interesting to see if others follow suit. was a 35:4 decision by their top players.
 
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emb

Member
Oct 28, 2017
642
I don't mind wobbling.

At least in the current state of things, it makes the game more fun to watch (underdog character has a high chance of pulling off comebacks or upsets; especially ICs vs spacies everything feels high risk for both players).

Playing, yeah, it feels bad. And yeah, you're forced to marinate in it for a few seconds. But it doesn't really feel worse to me that getting killed other ways. Root cause, I'm mad because I messed up.

I do see where people are coming from though. Those characters being good because of polarizing gimmicks can make it seem like you're losing to the matchup rather than the player. And it takes focus away from aspects of Melee that are really great. It's good that Melee has some of that diversity; I love seeing ICs or Puff vs normal top tiers when both sides are playing it well. But if everyone was playing some combination of Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Falcon/Peach that would probably be more fun in some aspects.

Either way, I couldn't see a character being fully banned at this point; feels too harsh towards people that have put time into learning the character. Wobbling going though, I could see it; there's precedent and plenty of strong negative sentiment out there.
 
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Chaosblade

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,596
Just saw that the Tennessee scene has decided to ban wobbling and the Alabama scene may follow. Not exactly the most nationally relevant scenes, but considering how lopsided the vote in Tennessee was (35-4-1) it probably won't stop there.

Edit: Reddit comment mentions Kentucky apparently has it on the table too.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,685
the fact that it had been banned pre Mr Wizard's decisions regarding EVO 2013, has been contentious for many years, and is getting banned again, I think its safe to say it was an overall net negative influence in the game.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
46,991
I agree that it breaks up the rhythm of the game, and that sucks, but I also try to look at it from a perspective of an ice climbers player. They're using the, what, 8th best character in the game? They never win tournaments, and now they get their tech banned. Is wobbling more broken than fox's shine? Fox scares me waaaaaay more than those little fuckers, even if they have an infinite.

Again I don't really care either way, because my mindset doesn't change vs an ic player whether wobbling is legal or not, just seems kinda odd to pick on this barely viable character in particular 18 years into the game's life

anyways:

 
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lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,685
its not picking on a character, its a very easy to learn and abuse infinite that should have stayed banned after the first time it was. They don't deserve sympathy for viability. If a character "needs" something that toxic to be viable, they shouldnt be viable to begin with (I dont agree with this sentiment either way, as id assume people like Bananas will continue to be very good with or without wobble).
 

Pikachu

Traded his Bone Marrow for Pizza
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,402
Yikes at this completely random wobbling conversation
 

Pikachu

Traded his Bone Marrow for Pizza
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,402
When was the last time an IC player was even a factor in a tournament, like TBH5 or something

It's a completely random thing to bring up now

And this random M2K who f*cking still tries to grime his way to wins over IC with a shit ass Peach being like "yes ban it please that's definitely why i don't win tournaments"
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,685
When was the last time an IC player was even a factor in a tournament, like TBH5 or something

It's a completely random thing to bring up now

And this random M2K who f*cking still tries to grime his way to wins over IC with a shit ass Peach being like "yes ban it please that's definitely why i don't win tournaments"

If you think its about winning tournaments you're missing the point entirely. Theres irony in the guy who fills tournament threads with "fuck hbox, fuck puff" posts ignoring something that's genuinely worth examining as something thats a detriment to the game and not petty hate.
 
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Chaosblade

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,596
I kind of agree with the thought that at high levels, playing against ICs is basically a set long execution test. Just like every other aspect of the game, ICs players have optimized wobble setups so "just don't get grabbed" gets harder as time goes on. Miss a SDI on a neutral exchange, you're down a stock. But I think that's relatively minor, the bigger problem with wobbling is at the lower and mid levels where the neutral is either non-existent or not as well developed. That and it's bad for viewership, and viewership is important because sponsors aren't going to fund tournaments without viewers.

Apart from limiting wobbling to 100% instead of 300%, my solution would probably be to limit it to once per stock. Not 4 per game, if ICs lose a stock without a wobble that opportunity is just missed. I think that would make ICs sets a bit less volatile while still giving them their primarily kill option on floaties.

The real craziness to me is all that talk about rule changes intended to nerf Puff. I think camping rules could probably be tightened up if there was some way to properly enforce it, but aside from that character specific rules and limitations are kind of ridiculous. A ledge grab limit isn't a bad solution, since it's universal and wouldn't impact 99% of games since they don't go to time. It's not a complete solution either though.
 
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Chaosblade

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,596
TIL double fastfall is a thing. Now I wonder how much of a difference that makes with Falco.
 

Codeblue

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,841
My problem with Wobbling is that it's so lame, like, aesthetically. Like, if you're gonna do an infinite, show me some swag hand-offs. Give me something to look at while my stock evaporates, you know?
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
46,991


this looks really cool, assuming dolphin never crashes or de-syncs from the actual gamecube/wii

1080p widescreen melee for stream, regular melee for the players actually playing
 
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Chaosblade

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,596
Slippi is one of those things that has seemed really cool for a while, but I don't really have any interest in digging into it myself. Hope to see it gain traction at tournaments though so basically every set gets "recorded." Too many great sets go unrecorded, or get recorded on phones.

Also, visually this is hilarious to me, but has some really interesting potential applications.





Really cool how quick some of this is coming together. In 2019 we'll have Melee streamed in HD, every set available to watch, AI-assisted stream interfaces, all kinds of player stats both live during sets and post-game/set, and commentators STILL won't have brackets or a stream schedule.
 
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lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,685
its a bummer because I was far too unwell last year to attend and this year might have been my only chance. Theres no shortage of massive smash events, but EVO is the one that has all of the big fighting games and kind of the biggest event in general.
 
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Chaosblade

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,596
I'm not even worried about it, after some of the comments last year I didn't expect it to be back this year anyway. And I have a sneaking suspicion Nintendo had a little say in the matter that helped push the Evo staff over the edge.

I didn't realize Smash Con and Evo were a week apart so now I wonder how the attendance will be split between Smash Con and the Evo side tournament. Would rather see one of them be a super major rather than have them split, but that's probably not happening.

And yeah, we have a ton of super major-caliber events. Genesis, Shine, Big House, and now that new BTS major later this year, Smash Con might be bigger for Melee without Evo. Losing Evo sucks, but Melee ain't going anywhere.
 

ggdeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
758
Expected. Not bothered in the slightest. But the Melee hate train goes on and that does bother me lol.

I really just don't get why there is such hate out there for the game/scene. We generally have great representation from community leaders/commentators and certainly no more idiots than any other scene.
 

corasaur

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,988
in hindsight i guess smashcon assumed this was happening with the date they picked.\

i wanna still go to shine even though it's not right next to me any more. guess i'll have to find a hotel group this year...
 

Elfforkusu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,098
SmashCon being a week later is nice, but there's no doubt that losing the eyeballs EVO brings is a big blow.

Oh well, maybe I'll donate to a Melee prize pool (can ordinary joes do that, or is there a sponsorship component?)
 

Codeblue

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,841
Seems like a good a time as any to register for my Melee regional.

The scene's been through worse.

I don't think I'll ever understand why people hate that the community never moved on, especially since we were proven right on how bad Smash 4 and Brawl were. Like, just because SFV players stomached 8 frame input lag for years to get corporate cash, doesn't mean we have to move on to games that aren't as good for literally nothing.
 

Deleted member 8001

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,440
We got FGC people acting like the scene never did any wrong it's pathetic. They so easily forget all the crap Melee got from FGC in the early days for not being a "real" fighting game and that lasted even into recent times.
 
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Chaosblade

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,596
House of Paign was good. Faceroll was playing like a man possessed, couldn't believe some of the techs he was hitting. Ginger came in second again.

And I have to watch that video when I get home, remember seeing in Twitter that was coming.



Barely touched Melee over the last month or so, especially since I've been trying to grind Rocksmith. Probably going to netplay one of the Smash Stick guys on their stream when they do a Melee stream. Going to get completely bodied, but oh well.

Been playing some over the last couple days to warm up for it, and I just started doing shine bairs out of nowhere. Never practiced it, never considered adding it to my mental list of possible options. It just started happening. Not like they are hard to do or anything, but it's just a weird way to add something to your game. I guess the bit of time away from playing has me approaching some things differently, and I've seen enough shine bairs that it was just something that "felt right" and naturally fit into certain situations.
 
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Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
46,991
melee players doing real well at smash ultimate summit

giphy.gif
 

Codeblue

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,841
Even Zero dropping his first set.

It doesn't help that half the Melee players don't really have established mains yet. The improvement since Genesis is real though. Next Summit is free assuming anyone plays this game by then.
 

emb

Member
Oct 28, 2017
642
All the Melee focus definitely made Summit day 1 more fun to watch. Pools matches are making it real clear though, which ones are actually Ultimate top players and which ones aren't lol.
 

Codeblue

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,841
ZD getting that classic M2K cheese from the moment he sat down and had to watch handwarmers to the early off stage kills.
 
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Chaosblade

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,596
Blahh. I do neat stuff and then I just completely blow it. This would be some legit Life and Times stuff if I was playing an actual person.