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Competitive Super Smash Bros Melee Community: 2001-present
- Thread starter Chaosblade
- Start date
2019 has been an incredible year for Melee. Things were looking so bleak at the start; now it's like there's a tournament that would be the best tournament of any other year every month. Axe takes one, Wizzy takes one, Hbox takes one in the most stressful way possible... Great time to be a Melee fan.
*Hot take*
Ledge grab limit
Happy for one to exist. Laughing very loud at M2K's complaining about it. My honest opinion on it is that even if Puff can "abuse" it more than anyone else, or more effectively, the issue is that HBox has a 90% chance of winning the set anyway just because of who he is, while M2K can absolutely lose and he knows ledge stalling can get him wins that he otherwise deserves to lose.
Edit: But wait, this YouTube comment actually is just a better solution: Vancouver BC melee: 15 taunts in a row wins you the game. Forces an interaction :^)
Ledge grab limit
Happy for one to exist. Laughing very loud at M2K's complaining about it. My honest opinion on it is that even if Puff can "abuse" it more than anyone else, or more effectively, the issue is that HBox has a 90% chance of winning the set anyway just because of who he is, while M2K can absolutely lose and he knows ledge stalling can get him wins that he otherwise deserves to lose.
Edit: But wait, this YouTube comment actually is just a better solution: Vancouver BC melee: 15 taunts in a row wins you the game. Forces an interaction :^)
Well, M2K's point is people suck at dealing with it and there's viable counterplay for every character (shield wavedash back to snap the ledge) except when it's against Puff. I guess we'll never know if he is right or not and people don't seem to care anyway because it's lame. Saw a thread on reddit and everyone was just shitting on Jason and not a single person even mentioned his suggested counterplay.
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M2K's counterplay seems unreliable, it gets beat by a ledge dash because you have to approach the ledge, generally backwards, before you can WD OOS to ledge.
LGL is good for Melee imo. The only actual downside is some low tiers will suffer a bit. Notably Yoshi, but Bowser actually gets hurt the most. But since it only applies to timeouts it's still not a huge deal.
LGL is good for Melee imo. The only actual downside is some low tiers will suffer a bit. Notably Yoshi, but Bowser actually gets hurt the most. But since it only applies to timeouts it's still not a huge deal.
Yoshi getting hurt is the only thing that makes me worried about it. I'm going to be crushed the first time a high tier main starts playing for timeouts against aMSa. Which will definitely happen. ;_;
(I'm also not sure how he's going to beat Hbox with a LGL... :/)
All in all I think it will be good for the game.
(I'm also not sure how he's going to beat Hbox with a LGL... :/)
All in all I think it will be good for the game.
Yeah, it obviously is a mixup, but the wavedash is still unreactable, so you can threaten it if you're in the right position. Some characters also don't have the ledge dash option (Marth for example). I don't know how good these options are that M2K mentions in his video because I have basically no experience against ledgestalling, but I do think he has a point when he says that most players don't know how to deal with it. I also think he is right in his argument that a lot of the times a LGL actually favours Jigglypuff because it can float in the air for a while before regrabbing the ledge, so it will regrab the ledge far less often than other characters when ledgestalling. For this reason he at least wants the LGL for Jigglypuff to be significantly lower. He also said they did this in Brawl for Meta Knight.
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IIRC even with all his ledge shenanigans he still only does 40-50 ledge grabs at most. 60 basically requires genuine, blatant stalling, it's a pretty fair number.
I could see this happening eventually, but only after seeing how things go with the standard LGL. If Puff still proves to be capable of blatant stalling then Puff and Kirby might get a reduced LGL due to multiple jumps increasing the power of each ledge grab. But that might not even be necessary.
According to a diligent hero on /r/ssbm, amsa had 33 ledgegrabs in the dreamland timeout vs hbox at summit. That... makes me feel a lot better
It's really more of a power rankings based on this year's placings.
in my mind wizzy or axe beating mango or leffen is still an upset. too many years of dominance from those two.
That match was insane.
This will go down in Smash history like Leffen vs Chillindude x)
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So how has Smashcon been? Work schedule is currently awful and I can't really watch anything.
Edit: Looks like I'm missing a great tournament :(
Edit: Looks like I'm missing a great tournament :(
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IIRC it was only unbanned because of the Evo ruleset going against the grain and MrWizard/Evo TOs not caring about it resulting in degenerative play. Since Evo did it everyone else followed. With Melee not at Evo anymore, TBH banning it is basically the start of a defacto community-wide ban. If Genesis and/or Shine ban it too, it's basically going to get banned everywhere for the sake of standardization.
Which is for the better IMO. I don't think any of the arguments for it actually justify it being legal and Juggleguy's explanations nails the logic behind it. Particularly the point about levels of play beyond the very top level, something that a lot of people tend to disregard.
Which is for the better IMO. I don't think any of the arguments for it actually justify it being legal and Juggleguy's explanations nails the logic behind it. Particularly the point about levels of play beyond the very top level, something that a lot of people tend to disregard.
I think Hax's video (that got the LGL adopted) was kind of a nail in the coffin for wobbling as well -- because (1) it drove home a ruleset change, and (2) while he contrasts the two to make the case for the LGL, once you look beyond top level it's abundantly obvious that wobbling is considerably worse in all respects. Super degenerate and also theoretically overcentralizing (but for peer pressure + not being big money esports).
Anyway, praise be
Anyway, praise be
So many fighting games have repetitive combos that last longer than wobbling usually does, that I never saw it as an issue.
There was a Summit where Bananas I think(?) faced Leffen and won from getting the grabs into wobbles and it was one of the most hype and tense matches I've watched. Was at the edge of my seat.
I know there's arguments for local-level play where it may ruin the tourney experience for a lot of people who aren't world-level competition, and that's really the only argument I've seen that resonates with me. But the thought of banning a tool from a character that rarely ever sqweaks into top 8 at majors leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm still amazed people want to ban it so bad TBH. It's like a less extreme version of banning grabs in SF2 at the arcade because salt. Can we ban waveshines and Puff's rest too? (That last question was sarcasm, although I've seen people legitimately argue in favor of those.)
Also I missed SmashCon WTF.
There was a Summit where Bananas I think(?) faced Leffen and won from getting the grabs into wobbles and it was one of the most hype and tense matches I've watched. Was at the edge of my seat.
I know there's arguments for local-level play where it may ruin the tourney experience for a lot of people who aren't world-level competition, and that's really the only argument I've seen that resonates with me. But the thought of banning a tool from a character that rarely ever sqweaks into top 8 at majors leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm still amazed people want to ban it so bad TBH. It's like a less extreme version of banning grabs in SF2 at the arcade because salt. Can we ban waveshines and Puff's rest too? (That last question was sarcasm, although I've seen people legitimately argue in favor of those.)
Also I missed SmashCon WTF.
I doubt those long boring combos are also guaranteed kill combos though, and even then I'm curious what you're talking about because that sounds ridiculous and nothing comes to mind from any fighting game I've played. :P
Melee has 4 stocks, it's not exactly a "guaranteed kill" by FG standards.
Games with multiple characters like the vs series are ripe with TODs for that same reason, where the match isn't over just because one health bar was depleted. You can claim they're not boring, but after watching them thousands of times, they very much are.
Tons of anime fighters have BnBs that last 15+ seconds (yes wobbling can potentially last much longer but the average time required to attain kill % tends to not be longer than that, as it's not like ICs manage to start their wobbles with the opponent at low percent every single time).
Don't get me started on older games. Sailor Moon is played as a side tourney at like every big FGC major and that games has infinites up the wazoo.
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The problem with wobbling is that it's a single punish that completely circumvents actually playing Melee. Other "lame" tools like Sheik's reaction tech chasing, or waveshines, or whatever at least have some degree of defensive counterplay in the form of DI, SDI, tech options, etc. Even with Rest you can often DI for the side blastzone to get a punish even on hit. It's a fairly objective difference. Whether it's boring, or whether a character inherently deserves representation, those are subjective.
Ice Climbers could do hand off combos instead of wobbling. But players obviously don't like it because it's worse (not a guaranteed kill) and harder (requires reactions for Nana's throws, more difficult inputs).
For just the remainder of that stock. Again, that's like saying combos circumvent playing fighting games.
I still don't see a problem with one character having a unique feature that allows a ToD when that character isn't even close to being top tier.
Sure, but those ToDs usually are a little harder to do than rhythmically pressing one button over and over and require the player to either spend a ton of resources to net the kill or are very situational. Like yeah Bardock and Cell have ToDs that aren't absurdly hard to do but also you need to start your combo with a specific heavily telegraphed move in neutral, have both assists, and burn your Sparking. I've never heard of a ToD that started off of an L or tick throw anywhere on the field that wasted no resources.
I don't see any point in comparing Melee specifically to DBFZ as if they're equivalent - the general point was merely that lots of fighting games have "downtime" due to combos. As the case with ICs, the interesting parts of those games is how a player earns that combo in the first place. In Melee it's particularly interesting to watch as Popo and Nana are often separated purposefully to disallow a wobble.
Hell, the standard 50% BnB that's mostly the same structure for nearly the whole cast in DBFZ takes as much time as your usual wobble and happens waaaaaaay more often than a wobble would in a Melee match with ICs.
I disagree with Chaosblade's argument in favor of banning it, but I still do think that sort of reasoning packs way more punch than wobbling being "boring" or being "too good." If ICs were Fox tier without wobbling, then it being too powerful would have a basis.
Hell, the standard 50% BnB that's mostly the same structure for nearly the whole cast in DBFZ takes as much time as your usual wobble and happens waaaaaaay more often than a wobble would in a Melee match with ICs.
I disagree with Chaosblade's argument in favor of banning it, but I still do think that sort of reasoning packs way more punch than wobbling being "boring" or being "too good." If ICs were Fox tier without wobbling, then it being too powerful would have a basis.
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You can argue that's an issue with DBFZ in general and I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but it's also not a criticism that applies to only one low tier character in the game. Only reason I bring that game up in particular is because it's the fighting game I have the most experience with playing/watching outside of Smash.
My point is that "downtime" and even TODs are not the problem - the problem is one character having a TOD that can start off a jab or raw grab in neutral that brings the pace of the game to a screeching halt in comparison to the rest of the cast. I don't think "wobble = TOD in an anime game" is a reasonable comparison for that reason.
My point is that "downtime" and even TODs are not the problem - the problem is one character having a TOD that can start off a jab or raw grab in neutral that brings the pace of the game to a screeching halt in comparison to the rest of the cast. I don't think "wobble = TOD in an anime game" is a reasonable comparison for that reason.
I'm just saying I'm used to waiting for combos to end from other fighters, so ICs bringing the pace to a screeching halt is fine for me personally as a viewer. I realize not many people agree, and some competitors hate having to play against ICs (it's funny cause Axe is my favorite player and he famously struggles against them).
I'm fine with them having such a fundamental difference from the rest of the cast as well. I can appreciate unique aspects that stand out, and I like how ICs create such a different feeling and mandate such a different gameplan from usual. I personallythink the diversity adds to the fun.
At the end of the day, it's pretty much gonna be majority rule and it thus far seems like wobbling will probably end up nearly universally banned. Which I find unfortunate, but eh, it's ultimately whatev. Just the notion that they are uniquely frustrating doesn't resonate with me as a solid reason for a ban.
For the ToD discussion, I would say it would be comparable to one character having a ToD while others didn't, yet that character wasn't even high tier despite having that ToD. Heck, there's probably some older anime game/s out there with that specific scenario.
I'm fine with them having such a fundamental difference from the rest of the cast as well. I can appreciate unique aspects that stand out, and I like how ICs create such a different feeling and mandate such a different gameplan from usual. I personallythink the diversity adds to the fun.
At the end of the day, it's pretty much gonna be majority rule and it thus far seems like wobbling will probably end up nearly universally banned. Which I find unfortunate, but eh, it's ultimately whatev. Just the notion that they are uniquely frustrating doesn't resonate with me as a solid reason for a ban.
For the ToD discussion, I would say it would be comparable to one character having a ToD while others didn't, yet that character wasn't even high tier despite having that ToD. Heck, there's probably some older anime game/s out there with that specific scenario.
I agree with the point that it makes matches tense to watch, and is generally fun to see. Playing matches too, it adds a great layer of fear because of the shame you have to wallow in for a minute. I like having it around.
To the point about other fighting games though, I'd say that's a flaw with both those games and wobbling. One of the big high points of Melee and Smash in general is the near constant interactivity; outside of ICs and a few other situations, there's rarely a combo that could be done the same way regardless of the other player's actions. But I also don't think it's that big a deal as a one off character gimmick.
I don't mind that much if it's banned either though. Enough people seem to dislike it, so I guess whichever way makes more people keep playing the game is cool.
To the point about other fighting games though, I'd say that's a flaw with both those games and wobbling. One of the big high points of Melee and Smash in general is the near constant interactivity; outside of ICs and a few other situations, there's rarely a combo that could be done the same way regardless of the other player's actions. But I also don't think it's that big a deal as a one off character gimmick.
I don't mind that much if it's banned either though. Enough people seem to dislike it, so I guess whichever way makes more people keep playing the game is cool.