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OtherWorldly

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,857
Because the world is not simply 1's and 0's. There's a lot more to this than being right, including how to say that without coming off as being antisemitic. You can't just say things like that in our complicated world on complicated subjects on top of which she's a female Muslim congresswoman, who is already at a disadvantage in the system. Giving ammunition so the GOP can paint her as antisemitic won't help anyone, which is why politicians need to be skilled at not giving soundbites that will be used against them.

But she was talking about aipac and it's influence on Israeli foreign policy .
Everyone knows that. The alt right be damned , why does she have to cater to what the labelers think . If she is right she is right . End . Right ?

If she has to dance around criticism even for some on the left then the haters win.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
Were not posters also banned on Resetera in another Israel-Palestine discussion for bringing up pro-Israel lobbying groups because it's anti-semitism to talk about the role money plays in oppressing Palestinian rights?

The reaction she's getting from some on the left is making me madder than it should. This country needs to stop supporting the Palestinian Genocide.

It's not the left. It's the liberals. There's a clear difference. This forum for example is liberal, not left. Currently liberals are for intervention and support candidates like Hillary. Leftists are anti-interventionism and support Bernie.

The pro-Israel support is from liberals. Not from the left. Folks like Greenwald, Scahill, Chomsky, Blumenthal etc. are leftists who do criticize Israel and are pro-Palestinian. The other day someone here called Max Blumenthal a piece of shit, Greenwald is reviled and people here want leftist sites like the Intercept to be banned

Liberals/Democrats have always supported Israel - that's why it's often called liberal except when it comes to Palestine. They are all for equal rights and social justice except where the Palestinians are concerned.
 
OP
OP
SaveWeyard

SaveWeyard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,540
Wringing your hands about what the possible GOP reaction is gonna be, when someone points out the truth, is bullshit and you need to fucking stop caring about the smear tactics they're going to employ regardless of what is said.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,903
She's totally right, but she couldn't have packaged it in a worse way. When you only use 6 words to make a point there's a damn good chance people will misunderstand you, willingly or otherwise. Putting out something like that is just asking for people to blow it up and the point you were trying to get across just gets lost in the noise.

Lots of freshman dems have been making this kind of mistake and forcing themselves to go on the defensive rather than calmly and clearly making their point from the beginning, which can still be done in a way that keeps your supporters engaged
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744

THE GUY

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,223
How is saying it's all about Benjamins anti-semitic? Someone explain the mental gymnastics that leads to that. We're gonna sit here and pretend there isn't a very clear Israeli force that has a significant influence on American politics and its treatment of the Israel/Palestine issue?

Like what kind of dumbass would take that comment from her, which was in the context of a GOP leader threatening punishment due to criticism of Israel, and assume "oh she must be talking about all the Jews with their money, how anti-semitic of her". Not the fucking obvious and very apparent entity called AIPAC that exists and have done a number on American politics.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,339
But is she right or wrong
If she is right

Then why do we give AOC a cheer to say the truth about finances so blatantly but not Omar about this ?

Because AOC isn't sloppy. She's pretty precise which is why Republicans can't really get anything to stick to her no matter how much they try. Meanwhile Omar retweeted something that was criticizing her and effectively calling her an anti-semite simply because she didn't read the entire tweet and only read the first part which made it sound like the commenter was agreeing with her. That's just sloppy.
 

Bramblebutt

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
1,858
She probably thought she was being clever by indicating that the AIPAC has significant influence on Congress through lobbying dollars and that that influence regularly seeks to benefit the personal causes of Benjamin Netanyahu, but just tweeting out a line about people being greedy in a discussion of Israeli government's influence on American politicians is frankly irresponsible without first establishing who and what you're specifically criticizing. I trust she didn't mean it, but it is not hard to read antisemitism into her message. Especially after that unfortunate retweet. This is just messy communication.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
But she was talking about aipac and it's influence on Israeli foreign policy .
Everyone knows that. The alt right be damned , why does she have to cater to what the labelers think . If she is right she is right . End . Right ?

They know the subject, they don't know her intent. How she framed her argument gave her bad optics from the left and the right, which is a bad fuck up on twitter. That's why it's difficult to talk about complicated subjects on twitter. Doing impulsive hot takes is not going to make her look good to many people, even if they agreed with her. She's a politician, as well, so she's going to get extra scrutiny.

Tweets like this are not helping her.



AOC needs to speak with her how to do this ASAP.

If she has to dance around criticism even for some on the left then the haters win.

The haters win when she gives them tweets which make her look like she's antisemitic on a silver platter by being sloppy with her words. She can get her point across without doing that, many experienced politicians have that skillset.
 

thefit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,243
Is it just me or is it pretty crazy that criticising Israel is like trying to walk on broken glass.

I get what you mean but man, it really is ridiculous.

The only reason it feels that way is because of the money they spend on both parties to defend their terrible right wing policies. The US and NATO has and always will defend their members including Israel that has never been the issue with the left the issue is that they went full apartheid and no one had foresight in the US to slow them down because of all the money. We see Israel and know the right wing want that model for the US and we are right.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
It is not crazy that Jewish Americans are going to be very unhappy if you start tweeting out things that can be interpreted as anti-semitic tropes (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitism ) and then RT a guy onto your feed who's complaining about it.
That's the thing. It's clear Israel has been using anti-semite accusations to smear anyone criticising them. I'm not saying anyone who's saying she should be more careful with how she word her actions are wrong, it's that having to do so, when it's the obvious and clear truth is terrible.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,721
Let's just go with the article title shall we?
 

JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,343
Is it just me or is it pretty crazy that criticising Israel is like trying to walk on broken glass.

I get what you mean but man, it really is ridiculous.
Jewish people are still the victim of a lot of hate crimes.

https://mic.com/articles/168325/hat...hos-been-targeted-since-trumps-win#.GrFgj1ICv

YmYwNjk3ZjMzMiMvZU5uelUtZkZWN3FiNG1BYlVmV3hqT3NuVnJrPS9maXQtaW4vNzYweDAvZmlsdGVyczpub191cHNjYWxlKCk6Zm9ybWF0KGpwZWcpOnF1YWxpdHkoODApL2h0dHBzOi8vczMuYW1hem9uYXdzLmNvbS9wb2xpY3ltaWMtaW1hZ2VzL3lweHVjcGt4cDVhanZoYTlldGRjaGVlc21lbW45a3hpazY3NXl6cGwyYWt2b210MnNrNGRmbXhtaTVmdnVkY3cuanBn.jpg


It doesn't mean you can't criticize Israel or their lobbying efforts, but it does mean that when you do so, it's important to use care to not perpetuate the anti-semitic stereotypes.
 

OtherWorldly

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,857
They know the subject, they don't know her intent. How she framed her argument gave her bad optics from the left and the right, which is a bad fuck up on twitter. That's why it's difficult to talk about complicated subjects on twitter. Doing impulsive hot takes is not going to make her look good to many people, even if they agreed with her. She's a politician, as well, so she's going to get extra scrutiny.

Tweets like this are not helping her.



AOC needs to speak with her how to do this ASAP.



The haters win when she gives them tweets which make her look like she's antisemitic on a silver platter by being sloppy with her words. She can get her point across without doing that, many experienced politicians have that skillset.


She said the exact same thing about Saudi Lobby in congress last November. Why wasn't that news ?
 

Tomohawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,014
Because AOC isn't sloppy. She's pretty precise which is why Republicans can't really get anything to stick to her no matter how much they try. Meanwhile Omar retweeted something that was criticizing her and effectively calling her an anti-semite simply because she didn't read the entire tweet and only read the first part which made it sound like the commenter was agreeing with her. That's just sloppy.
It was sloppy but can we just wait for her comment instead of spinning up the anti semitism machines when it obvious to anyone viewing it in good faith what her point was. God knows muslim women are demonized enough in congress.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
That's the thing. It's clear Israel has been using anti-semite accusations to smear anyone criticising them. I'm not saying anyone who's saying she should be more careful with how she word her actions are wrong, it's that having to do so, when it's the obvious and clear truth is terrible.
Yes, Israel/AIPAC use bad-faith accusations regularly. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who aren't anti-semitic on the left half of the political axis though. Had this been the usual GOP and other right wing suspects complaining, this would not have blown up like it has.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
The pro-Israel support is from liberals. Not from the left. Folks like Greenwald, Scahill, Chomsky, Blumenthal etc. are leftists who do criticize Israel and are pro-Palestinian. The other day someone here called Max Blumenthal a piece of shit, Greenwald is reviled and people here want leftist sites like the Intercept to be banned

This describes many liberal's opinions, including my own. It's not exclusively leftist by any stretch.

Fuck Glenn Glenwald. He has no credibility on anything.

Liberals/Democrats have always supported Israel - that's why it's often called liberal except when it comes to Palestine. They are all for equal rights and social justice except where the Palestinians are concerned.

Wrong.
 

effingvic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,159
More bad faith bullshit from the right. The lack of support from the dems is absolutely maddening.
 

Link

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,623
She's completely right. Fuck Israel and anyone that shows blind support for them, especially those who disingenuously try to equate being anti-Israel as anti-Semitic. It's maddening how easy it is to hoodwink people with that garbage. We've literally got legislatures stomping on the US Constitution in the name of backing Israel. Disgusting.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,339
It was sloppy but can we just wait for her comment instead of spinning up the anti semitism machines when it obvious to anyone viewing it in good faith what her point was. God knows muslim women are demonized enough in congress.

I was just commenting on the difference. These young congresswomen are what we want in that the're much more aggressive than the old guard. They're pushing some harsh truths that will ruffle feathers. But in doing so it also means that they can't be sloppy because they're being watched like a hawk by people who're just waiting to try to end their career before it even starts.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,819
The far-left DOES need to stop the implicit antisemitic rhetoric. I don't support Israel, but it is naive to just ignore blatant and historical antisemitic stereotypes involving Jews, money, and secret influence. Acting like "oh Israel doesn't mean Jews so calm down" is ignoring the point! A lot of people on the right and the left don't care if you say Israel or AIPAC. When they hear or read someone implying Israel controls the United States, many think Jews! The Pittsburgh shooter thought HIAS controlled the United States, and used this to attack random Jews even though none of them were involved with HIAS. There must be better communication by the left regarding this issue because shrugging it off does Jews a disservice and forces us into a dilemma where calling out antisemtism makes us racist Zionists and excusing it makes us self-hating.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
people can wring their hands about the wording all they like, but there was absolutely no way Omar could say that wealthy pro-Israel donors play an outsize role here without being accused of antisemitism, let's be real here
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
How is it misleading? It's literally what happened.
Going by the article:

Freshman Minnesota Democrat Ilhan Omar ignited a new controversy on Sunday night when she suggested GOP support for Israel is driven by campaign donations from a prominent pro-Israel group.

Omar singled out AIPAC, one of the most influential lobbying groups in Washington, as the source of those donations.


Omar's comments touched upon a long-running, and particularly ugly, thread of the anti-Semitic movement — that Jewish money fuels backing for Israel in the United States and elsewhere. A freshman Democrat, Max Rose of New York, said, "Congresswoman Omar's statements are deeply hurtful to Jews, including myself."

In response to Greewald's post, Omar tweeted, "It's all about the Benjamins baby," followed by a music emoji, which suggested that money was calling the tune for McCarthy.

When asked to explain where the money she was referring to came from, Omar tweeted: "AIPAC."

It seems that she was accurately stating how the Israel lobby works
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
How is saying it's all about Benjamins anti-semitic? Someone explain the mental gymnastics that leads to that. We're gonna sit here and pretend there isn't a very clear Israeli force that has a significant influence on American politics and its treatment of the Israel/Palestine issue?

It's a Jewish negative stereotype with money.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-t...and-money-goes-beyond-the-pale-of-settlement/

Firstly, it's tangible proof of the anti-Semitic violence in 19th century Russia. More importantly, though, it gives testimony to the dark train of thought running through the Western intellectual canon: Philosophers from Kant to Marcion have glorified Christendom's spiritual development in opposition to a "materialism" they defined as "Jewish."

These cultural cliches are as derogatory as they are insulting, Stern says, citing the images of greedy, money-obsessed Jews bowing to the Lord of Shylock, engaging in mercantile and usurer activities that reflect a materialistic doctrine inscribed in their sacred scrolls.
Nobody is doing that.

Like what kind of dumbass would take that comment from her, which was in the context of a GOP leader threatening punishment due to criticism of Israel, and assume "oh she must be talking about all the Jews with their money, how anti-semitic of her". Not the fucking obvious and very apparent entity called AIPAC that exists and have done a number on American politics.

Plenty of people would, and not solely from the GOP. Words have meanings, fucking that up can be a PR nightmare.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
The far-left DOES need to stop the implicit antisemitic rhetoric. I don't support Israel, but it is naive to just ignore blatant and historical antisemitic stereotypes involving Jews, money, and secret influence. Acting like "oh Israel doesn't mean Jews so calm down" is ignoring the point! A lot of people on the right and the left don't care if you say Israel or AIPAC. When they hear or read someone implying Israel controls the United States, many think Jews! The Pittsburgh shooter thought HIAS controlled the United States, and used this to attack random Jews even though none of them were involved with HIAS. There must be better communication by the left regarding this issue because shrugging it off does Jews a disservice and forces us into a dilemma where calling out antisemtism makes us racist Zionists and excusing it makes us self-hating.

Manchego said it right here:
there was absolutely no way Omar could say that wealthy pro-Israel donors play an outsize role here without being accused of antisemitism, let's be real here

This tone policing (it's worse than that, TBF) absolutely shuts down criticism of Israeli policy, particularly from Muslims and Arabs.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,748

Considering she's already apologized for a previous tweet related to Israel, she's clearly bad at this. Whenever I've heard her speak she seems fine, but she should ease up on Twitter.

The reality a lot of people (including on this forum) don't ever seem to want to understand is that a lot of criticism of Israel is deeply rooted in antisemitism. That doesn't mean that criticizing Israel is antisemitic, but a lot of the language and rhetoric around it is and a lot of people who agree with the broader criticisms of Israel pick up that rhetoric without knowing or understanding its roots. And it just makes talking about it super shitty.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,410
Quoting myself from PoliEra:

The "complaints of AIPAC lobbying money = dogwhistle to anti-Semitism" bit is a an old, tired way of shutting down all discussion on Israel, Palestine, and pro-Israeli lobbying. And Israel/AIPAC knows and exploits this, even as they push one of the most egregious anti-1st amendment legislations ever into the current Congress.

According to open secrets, the majority of pro-Israel PAC money is funneled to Democrats every election cycle. Pointing this out is not racist: https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=Q05
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,768
Considering she's already apologized for a previous tweet related to Israel, she's clearly bad at this. Whenever I've heard her speak she seems fine, but she should ease up on Twitter.

The reality a lot of people (including on this forum) don't ever seem to want to understand is that a lot of criticism of Israel is deeply rooted in antisemitism. That doesn't mean that criticizing Israel is antisemitic, but a lot of the language and rhetoric around it is and a lot of people who agree with the broader criticisms of Israel pick up that rhetoric without knowing or understanding its roots. And it just makes talking about it super shitty.
I see this a lot, in a lot of places. Give me an example of criticism of Israel that can't be misconstrued as antisemitic.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,018
There is no magic combination of words that will allow you to be critical of Israel without being called an anti-semite. There's a clear agenda at play and they're sticking to it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
Considering she's already apologized for a previous tweet related to Israel, she's clearly bad at this. Whenever I've heard her speak she seems fine, but she should ease up on Twitter.

The reality a lot of people (including on this forum) don't ever seem to want to understand is that a lot of criticism of Israel is deeply rooted in antisemitism. That doesn't mean that criticizing Israel is antisemitic, but a lot of the language and rhetoric around it is and a lot of people who agree with the broader criticisms of Israel pick up that rhetoric without knowing or understanding its roots. And it just makes talking about it super shitty.

nah, the "hypnotized the world" tweet was legitimately bad and she was correct to apologize for it. this controversy is mostly just people choosing to read insinuations of some shadowy secret cabal into what she actually said
 

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,361
I'm always surprised when people don't understand why Jewish conspiracy theories or similar rhetoric is considered antisemitic.
Considering she's already apologized for a previous tweet related to Israel, she's clearly bad at this. Whenever I've heard her speak she seems fine, but she should ease up on Twitter.

The reality a lot of people (including on this forum) don't ever seem to want to understand is that a lot of criticism of Israel is deeply rooted in antisemitism. That doesn't mean that criticizing Israel is antisemitic, but a lot of the language and rhetoric around it is and a lot of people who agree with the broader criticisms of Israel pick up that rhetoric without knowing or understanding its roots. And it just makes talking about it super shitty.
Which is amusing because that in and of itself is antisemitic. People just have blinders, because they know they are socially liberal they sssume they cannot discriminate while doing it in ways they don't realize or don't intend because they don't understand the nuances of it.
 

Link

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,623
The far-left DOES need to stop the implicit antisemitic rhetoric. I don't support Israel, but it is naive to just ignore blatant and historical antisemitic stereotypes involving Jews, money, and secret influence. Acting like "oh Israel doesn't mean Jews so calm down" is ignoring the point! A lot of people on the right and the left don't care if you say Israel or AIPAC. When they hear or read someone implying Israel controls the United States, many think Jews! The Pittsburgh shooter thought HIAS controlled the United States, and used this to attack random Jews even though none of them were involved with HIAS. There must be better communication by the left regarding this issue because shrugging it off does Jews a disservice and forces us into a dilemma where calling out antisemtism makes us racist Zionists and excusing it makes us self-hating.
So we should just let AIPAC keep getting away with all their bullshit because stupid people can't tell the difference between being against a massive pro-Israel lobby and being anti-Semitic? No wonder Trump is president. This country is full of completely gullible morons who fall for the lowest-effort manipulation.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
It's a Jewish negative stereotype with money.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-t...and-money-goes-beyond-the-pale-of-settlement/





Plenty of people would, and not solely from the GOP. Words have meanings, fucking that up can be a PR nightmare.
I assume when she says "it's all about the benjamins" she was referring to the congress people who are receiving the money from lobbyists, not the Jewish pro israeli lobbyists who are giving the money, so I don't see how this feeds into that specific stereotype . Also I'm Jewish before anyone asks
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
people can wring their hands about the wording all they like, but there was absolutely no way Omar could say that wealthy pro-Israel donors play an outsize role here without being accused of antisemitism, let's be real here

True, but had she criticised them carefully people would just shrug their shoulders because it would be an obvious smear, here she's outright giving them loads of ammo to prove their case. Which is why words matter.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,263
It was inevitable for this to become a controversy. In the age of information where suddenly all the problems that plague our society and political systems are crystal clear and well understood it was only a matter of time, just like how we're finally getting real about discussing the billionaire problem.

The hold that Israel has on the US is a glaring problem and anyone not already in their pockets or drinking the koolaid has known this for years.
 

Sokrates

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
560
Looks like conservatives are trying to pull a Jeremy Corbyn on Omar. Hope she weathers the storm and goes after the Apartheid Israel lobby and their lackeys.

Free Palestine and fuck settler states in all forms. Another way for Europeans to control the Middle East. At this point Netanyahu is either the new Magnus Malan or Ian Smith.
 
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