Because Clinton, Harris and Pelosi are not the Democratic grassroots?
If I remember correctly, Bernie's polling went up after his criticisms of AIPAC.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Congresswoman Omar ignites new anti-Semitism controversy with comments on AIPAC
- Thread starter SaveWeyard
- Start date
- Status
Because Clinton, Harris and Pelosi are not the Democratic grassroots?
If I remember correctly, Bernie's polling went up after his criticisms of AIPAC.
I'm specifically pointing out the fact that some people are offended by things the BLM activists do. And that it's not the job of the BLM activists to apologize to anyone whose feelings they hurt when they attack the institutions that perpetuate the subjugation of their people.
AIPAC is a racist, Islamophobic, war-mongering organization that exerts enormous influence on American politics. We should refuse to pile on Ilhan Omar for fumbling around her criticism of AIPAC when 90%+ of Congress members from both parties support such a racist organization in the first place.
The 'appetite' must not be that big if someone like Harris is still considered one of the strongest presidential candidate from the left even after she has shown that that she would give AIPAC and Netanyahu her unequivocal support. At best, it's just an empty rhetoric that would amount to absolutely nothing, especially since among the people that matter such sentiment are basically non-existent, and everyone would quickly move to quash any person even dare to show such an 'appetite'.
I know the difference, and the amount of people standing for him indirectly is shocking on this forum. They care more about the US then Venezuela, which says it all about where they stand with Maduro.
This is more like it. I agree she's being too close to them, but again - how entrenched is she to them monetarily? Particularly in her Speaker position. If they hold sway over a large portion of the purse strings of the entire party due to her Speakership why wouldn't she go along with that out of self preservation? How about her ideology and beliefs? How much of that is genuine compared to mealy mouthed bullshit to appease AIPAC because of the above?
You'd prefer Omar to get exiled instead? We're no Lukid flunkies, frankly I'm stunned by how out of touch this is with cultural norms in the US.
You do realise the Dems are not criticising her for her stances but how she went about with language, right? That's a massive difference to what the GOP do. Leftists can be wrong on how they do things. This attempt to frame any constructive criticism of the left with betrayal has got to stop. The left can fuck up sometimes, live and learn and make sure not to repeat mistakes which work for your enemies - like the AIPAC and GOP. Fight smart, not clumsily.
What does that have to do with anything we were just discussing...
-Someone said some Dems support fascists
-Someone responded that some support Maduro
-You said no one on this board supports Maduro
-I pointed out that the original comments (one and two above) said nothing about "this board" specifically
Now your response is... people need to talk to Venezuelan Maduro supporters... ?? How does that even relate? And in any case every tin pot dictatorship has its supporters, what would talking to them prove, exactly? Even in the worst regimes some segment of the people manage just fine. Have you talked to any Kim supporters? And you're back to "regime change" which again is a false dichotomy, people can oppose Maduro without supporting a US military invasion.
Weird that you think her tweet should have gotten her exiled (to where?). I'm well aware of the cultural norm that criticism of Israel is to be silenced.
An extremely charitable interpretation of the Dem response, completely at odds with the party's history.
http://time.com/4265947/hillary-clinton-aipac-speech-transcript/
After liberal leadership forced to Rep. Omar to apologize after railing against special interest money influencing politics I hope the liberals can go back to rail against special interest money influencing politics
Well that ends that debate.
Holy shit you got me stuck.
I don't get how Pelosi gets so much support here, she's the queen of the neoliberal elite. What do libs actually stand for?
Well to not have trump as president and letting him continue to destroy the country. Is a very good start.
Because she's masterful at keeping her caucus organized and unified in the House. That's her actual job.
They're audience is AIPAC, of course they're going to say words they want to hear. What are they saying outside of that bubble to people who aren't pro-AIPAC?
She's made more than one controversial tweet. It's continuing to do this which may land her in hot water, which she's in right now. Do you want her to get slammed like this through her entire political career? Criticism of Israel isn't silenced, it's the appearance of anti-semitism in doing that that is and she failed that task. You're acting like no Dems criticise Israel's government, period, when that's not true. Do you remember what shit Obama got from Bibi's government?
This is a bad fucking sign. This is why she needs to be careful wth AIPAC.
Last edited:
I think they're quoting an old tweet from her? I saw a pic of it iirc. No idea how valid that pic is or isn't though.
Are you serious? that's the criteria? if they didn't believe a word they said. Then why in the two hells are they there? people don't do things like that or get catch up in stuff like that. Unless they just like money and or believe in the words their saying or both. Otherwise their idiots, lack integrity and shouldn't be in congress.
I really do. We fight against it in the Labour Party.
Seems the standards in America for politics is not be Trump/GOP but that's how your Democratic Party gets away with offering no real change. Pelosi is the perfect example of that. The moment one of her subordinates criticises her special interests she calls them out for anti-semitism.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/clinton-palestinians-could-have-had-state-for-15-years-already/
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...ump-on-declaring-jerusalem-as-israels-capital
I'm a little shocked that I have to do this. I barely pay attention to Dem activities in minutae and even I know how they see Israel.
There is no strategic pandering here, the Dems have always been in lock-step with the Israel lobby as far as I'm aware. Bernie made a name for himself in 2016 on this specific point, because he was willing to not kowtow to Israel, even if he waffles a bit on BDS.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...ry-clinton-israel_us_57114f60e4b0060ccda353ab
Why Bernie Sanders' Comments On The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Are Historic
He forced Hillary Clinton to defend not talking about Palestinian dignity.
Do you not understand that any criticism towards israeli goverment gets call anti Semitic? rarely do you see Dems criticize their goverment or their leaders. For that reason alone.
no i know, it was just joking because their actions are pretty definitively Evil and not "evil"
They're there becomes they're big donors to the party, what else is there to it? People do speeches all the tie at functions to cater to the audience, it's exactly that - catering - because that's all they want to hear, even if the speakers don't. Another factor is that they're politicians, who lie for a living. Go deeper with your analysis, the world isn't always that up front with honestly. Particularly with politics.
It's crazy that it's that clear to see and yet posters want to ignore it and act like Dem criticizing the Israeli goverment is all the rage. lol
Yes I remember that Israel freaked out when Obama mildly criticized it (without actually doing anything about the actions he criticized). I guess you're agreeing with me that the lessons Dems should take from that and now this stupid episode is not to criticize Israel? I mean, that's the goal of the right reaction to this, that the Dems seem to be very happy to assist (whether intentionally or from stupidity is an open question).
You're ignoring the nuance involved with this complicated subject. Sure AIPAC and the Israeli government do do that, I'm not disagreeing but you're acting like that's all anyone's doing when it's wrong. You're not listening to what the Dems are saying. They rarely criticise because AIPAC has them by the balls, and they're not suicidal.
No, the point is to do it smartly. Look at how Obama was never in this bullshit that Omar is in, because he knew not to step into a landmine. They're not happy, they're compliant because they have a reason to be via political leverage. You're forgetting a missing step here, how exactly do the left plan on fixing this corruption? Because as of now they're got fuck all to change AIPAC's hold on the party and there isn't any significant movement for how to plan this among your academics or leaders from what this thread has showed me.
Last edited:
So your contention is that support for Israel by Democrats is driven primarily by fundraising concerns?
It's legitimate. https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/280348/rep-ilhan-omar-deserves-dialogue
People could learn from her interview statement about it. (I was unaware of this interview til this article.)
What you talking about? why are you acting like i don't understand how this arrangement works? it's all obvious. But it's not a good excuse nor is it an insight outlook. When it comes to how these things usually play out in the end. It's not just a speaking arrangement. Especially not to big donors and even more so, not even single politician is going to speak at a donors podium. If they represent things or have a history of standing behind actions that go against their real beliefs. Unless their morally bankrupt and hence why i said they shouldn't be in congress or the senate. If they can't even use their power to refuse.
Has she tweeted against Jewish people before or just about policies of Israel towards Palestinians . That's all I see in 2012. I can't find any tweets which were antisemitic. Those 2012 are what you would find by most posters here at era about Israeli politics against Palestinians
Pelosi is actually a competent leader of the opposition against an awful / incompetent right wing government, unlike the buffoon in your avatar (Corbyn)...
UK Feb 2019:
Tories 41%
Labour 34%
US:
Republicans 42%
Democrats 51%
Think of how badly the Tories are bungling Brexit for years and on a daily basis... and then realize that support for Corbyn's handling of the Brexit issue is actually far lower! What a joke lol
AIPAC is powerful because the environment works in their favor. The consensus among establishment media figures is advantageous toward Israel, the United States and Israel are deeply intertwined by both history and ongoing geopolitical forces, there is a vibrant (though weakening) connection between Israel and American Jewry, evangelicals have a massive soft spot for Israel, etc., etc.
Any picture that portrays AIPAC as this singularly powerful puppet master that wills support for Israel into existence is as incomplete as it is problematic.
So what are you arguing then? because now they have Omar "by the balls" hence why they made her apologize. Do you see how that works? they keep each other in line regardless of context. Hence why you don't see them jump on certain issues that continue to go uncheck. When it comes to the doings of the Israeli government.
Netanyahu explicitly campaigned against Obama, so he did in fact step on a mine, despite his wimpy mild criticism. And what did that milquetoast criticism get him on the ground in the Levant? Absolutely nothing. So your approach not only calls for people to do this phony dance where they have to tone police themselves and pretend the world is other than it is, but it doesn't even work! Israel and its toadies do the same thing regardless! There's nothing that's going to keep the US from being Israel's bitch in the short to medium term, but at least Omar, before she capitulated, had the dignity of not engaging in the pathetic charade.
"AIPAC has Dem politicians by the balls."
Me: "Isn't this bad? Shouldn't we be cheering for Omar because she's resisting this systemic corruption?"
"No you see this is actually strategy. By capitulating to AIPAC these Dems secure their seats and push pro-Israel policies."
Me: "????"
That's what you sound like Ichthyosaurus.
Me: "Isn't this bad? Shouldn't we be cheering for Omar because she's resisting this systemic corruption?"
"No you see this is actually strategy. By capitulating to AIPAC these Dems secure their seats and push pro-Israel policies."
Me: "????"
That's what you sound like Ichthyosaurus.
Because you're ignoring the implications, as if they have no impact on how the Dems react to AIPAC or Israel. It'd be more damning if they did all this without getting funding or political incentives. You're confusing being mercenary with being a true believer, when the mindsets are not identical. It's not an excuse, it's an explanation.
Big donors hold sway due to their influence like this, which could severely hurt he party's infrastructure if they are that deeply entrenched. Speaking engagements are part and parcel of their business relationship, it's a contract for a job - it's not an informal meeting where they are relaxed amongst friends.
All those things you mentioned are symbiotic, which is leverage AIPAC holds. Cut those puppet strings, the Dems won't be so inclined to do this. So, what's your plan to do this?
The context behind why people commit actions can be as education about what they're doing. This is why finding accurate motives are important and fighting smart. You don't just flail around expecting your enemies to keep over, you need to plan and have precision. Omar did the former, Obama did the latter.
Such a huge appetite from the left politicians to criticizing Israel and their lobbies.
Also, stuff like this is a clear cut example of why I extremely and seriously doubt that the likes of Pelosi are criticizing Omar out of honest-to-good intentions.
In the context of support for Israel among the people in power in the US government, no, not really. They are indeed a singularly powerful puppet master that holds great sway and influence among politicians from both sides, even among those who claim themselves to be progressive.
I'm going to ask for a citation on what Obama did specifically to undermine AIPAC. I'm genuinely curious, I was not politically active during his tenure so if he did something substantial on this front I'd like to know about it.
Exactly.
It's literally mental gymnastics 101... it's this "Own yourself to own the Libs" or "Own yourself to please the Israeli government, and then serve them".
But Obama wasn't framed as being an antisemite, was he? I'm not saying Obama had an solution but he did fight back and did good works. I'm not saying it works, I'm saying this is all we have right now until my side can get their shit together because solving this is difficult. In the meanwhile the leftists were a compete non-factor back then and what have they accomplished since? Omar's tweets aren't doing shit about Israel's influence in America.
You say this like I don't agree with your assessment. We're on the same side here.
Please, the leftists strategies against AIPAC are pathetic. I dislike how my side is neutralised by them, but c'mon. I'd like nothing more than the Dems to not be forced to capitulate, and you're not giving me any impression leftists are going to help the Dems out of this position. They'll complain, but they'll accomplish jack at stopping AIPAC's influence.
Last edited:
Whether Dem politicians are Israel true believers like Chuck seems to be, or whether they're just saying what they say for the money... as long as they turn around to support pro-Israel legislation and ignore Palestine, what difference does it make whether they were being mercenary or engaging in realpolitik?
I don't understand why you feel the need to argue this point at all.
I don't understand why you feel the need to argue this point at all.
Exactly i rather their be politicians like Omar and less like Chuck and Kamala. At least that gets a discuss going and a dialogue started.
Maybe at some point we'll get past semantics.
Why bring up the leftists' side? Shouldn't the Dems be getting themselves out of that position? Are you doing anything to help the Dems get out of that position?
As far as I remember the most significant thing Obama did towards the Netanyahu government was to furrow his brow a bit, perhaps with the addition of a frown.
Here's what supporting Palestine looks like to me, for the record:
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/...ngresswoman-plans-west-bank-trip-for-freshman
Supporting Palestine is not "taking money from the Israel lobby and then passing laws to erode the AIPAC influence", something that is nice to fantasize about but not what they actually do.
Supporting Palestine is, surprisingly, just supporting Palestine. Pretty crazy stuff huh.
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/...ngresswoman-plans-west-bank-trip-for-freshman
Supporting Palestine is not "taking money from the Israel lobby and then passing laws to erode the AIPAC influence", something that is nice to fantasize about but not what they actually do.
Supporting Palestine is, surprisingly, just supporting Palestine. Pretty crazy stuff huh.
Sure. I'll dig up some links on their history. He didn't go after AIPAC, he went head to head with Bibi and the Israeli government.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...-like-dealing-with-gop-ex-aide-says-1.6154090
https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...at-obama-and-emerged-a-man-transformed-214779
The Pelosi/Schumer/Clinton/Obama crowd's strategies don't work either. In fact I don't think they have strategies, the status quo is just fine as far as they're concerned. The leftists' strategies don't work because they have no power, but at least they have integrity.
Exactly we need more bodies to support palestine and stop ignoring it. While gently acting like supporting the thing that continue to endorse, the killing of Palestinians is somehow going to be changed or voted out. From within and by folks being paid to speak for them and vote for them.
So essentially he did nothing? but i already no why.
People seemingly just ignore that we've been watching this horror show continue on just as you described it our entire lives. Literally generations of politicians across the divide. There's no secret plan here. There never was. There is only the status quo, until Israel does something evil to reset the status quo further in their favor and we repeat the cycle.
No actual movement or progress. Just naked tribal bullshit, always in favor of Israeli aggression or - actually even worse imo - silence.
- Status