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tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
Nobody would answer your question with no. The only thing I don't like is when people act like most of the people engaging with any of this do it for purposes like yours.
Well, someone just did.
In a vacuum, no. But the same method you use for SummVM and Monkey Island (fine taste in games, I might add), can also be used for less friendly code. And that's my main problem. As I said, I'd be okay with an exploit that didn't allow for cheats and piracy, but unless a homebrew tool was made so it explicitly banned that, I just don't see it as safe. The bad comes with the good. I wish we could only get the good, or the system remained un-hacked.
I point out this use case to make the point that, while opening a platform is painted by some as a purely negative force (and perhaps a purely positive one by others), it is neither. Yes, no one disputes that custom firmware allows people the freedom to use their hardware in ways not intended by the manufacturer, as is their legal right, and this can lead to some people using it for illegal activity. But, just as there are malicious uses, there are perfectly benign ones as well. I haven't spent years building up a backup library of games I own and have ripped myself to be denied use of these on a new piece of hardware that is perfectly capable of running it simply because Nintendo doesn't want to provide consumers with the mechanism to do so.

I think some of the ideological gap here comes from the way I view consoles, which is essentially as PCs (or, in this case, something very akin to an Android tablet). Yes, having these things being open platforms offers some disadvantages, but you don't see arguments for people who play on Steam to lock people down into SteamOS because a closed platform would allow piracy. It's accepted that allowing people the ability to operate in a more free and open environment is generally a good thing on PC, even if it means some people will pirate games, although games still end up selling very well on this platform. By the way, as other users have pointed out, there are things Nintendo can do to mitigate piracy and online cheating, even with modified consoles, that they aren't doing. The two things don't have to be mutually exclusive.

To be honest, this seems like a selfish way of thinking. Why do you think it's acceptable collateral damage that the Switch be opened up to cheaters and pirates just so you can play some games that the device is not intended to be used to play? There are a plethora of devices which can run ScummVM, several probably in your home, why not use one of those instead of trying to alter the Switch to be exactly what you want it to be? At the cost of harming the entire switch ecosystem? That seems like a pretty bad deal for the rest of us who are using our Switches as intended but now have to deal with cheaters. Maybe you don't feel responsible for other Switch owners or their experiences with the ecosystem, but many of us who are anti mod do.
It's only selfish in so much as allowing consumers to exercise their protected legal right to modify the hardware they own can be considered selfish, and defending a corporation's desire to prevent people from exercising that right can be seen as selfless. Once again, there are things that can be described as harm it brings to the Switch ecosystem, and there are things that can be described as gains it provides to the Switch ecosystem, like the use cases I've highlighted in this thread. Also, I still play Mario Kart and Splatoon on Wii U and you're really exaggerating how prevalent cheating is in those games. I've run across a few cheaters in many hours of gameplay, and it absolutely does not ruin the entire online experience.

Introducing the ability to play backups from another console that the device was not originally intended to is not a new feature, it's piracy.
Absolute errant, shameful nonsense. This is nothing more than a dishonest smear. My ability to make and playback legal backups is completely protected under the law. It has nothing to do with piracy and no relation to piracy. And that has been affirmed time and time again by the courts. Claiming that using backups is a form of piracy is a total fabrication. That's like saying I can't rip vinyl records I own to digital audio files, convert my VHS tapes to DVD, or rip my CDs to my MP3 player without being smeared as a pirate. You should correct this falsehood.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995

Every time this issue comes up it blows my mind how obtuse and entitled gamers are. Aren't you guys video game enthusiasts? Why are you jumping to defend practices which are bad for the industry and have no benefit for you? Hopefully no one thinks that console manufacturers own your hardware and are just leasing it out?

It's not hard to turn exaggerated arguments around.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,801
New York City
The way I see it, it's just giving the power you have on a PC to a console or handheld system. If you own a computing device, why not run the software you want on it, as long as it's legal?

The problem mentioned in this thread is that opening up a console to run whatever you'd like on it also opens it up to the same problems as PC, e.g. hacking online games, piracy, and so on. PC and console games already account for piracy with things like DRM (and on both, DRM is always broken, and piracy becomes a thing anyway). Plus, they are both even starting to account for hackers, e.g. with server side techniques.

Therefore, while cheaters are annoying, I feel like it isn't a problem that's unexpected in the computing world, and while console makers took their walled garden for granted in the past, they're doing more to put in anti-cheating practices they have become standard.

And I think the whole "it's about the homebrew scene" argument is a joke. Has there ever been a piece of homebrew created for a modded console that genuinely improved it in a crucial way that was not possible before? I've never heard of anything like that.
This is a bit outside of the scope of this thread, but here are a few examples of system modifications of the past that were made possible by hacking and/or homebrew:

The PSP allowed for running your games off Memory Stick instead of the painfully slow UMD.

The PSP and New 3DS allowed for overclocking the processor to make games run smoother.

The New 3DS allows for streaming your 3DS gameplay to your PC so streamers, YouTubers, etc. can record / stream their 3DS games without getting their system modded with hardware.

The Switch allows for backing up your saves. This is true with many other systems as well, e.g. the 3DS, so you can back up the saves on your cartridge. Or the PS1/PS2 where you can move saves off your memory cards and onto a PC where you'll have more space.

I'm sure that eventually the Switch will allow for video recording and screenshots of all games, and not just the games that specifically have them enabled.

Basically, there are many use cases for homebrew beyond piracy or emulation that make homebrew worthwhile. I also haven't even mentioned various important applications that started off as homebrew (like XBMC/Kodi or Colors! DS), but I don't want to stray too far outside the scope of the thread.
 
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Vena

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,454
Systems should be used in addition to affirmative identification, but those systems would have to be substantially different and morgen complicated than the baby-level telemetry stuff Nintendo has. I can talk about this subject alld day - design, implementation, tactics - and I know, with every fibre of my being, that Nintendo doesn't have what it takes to effectively fight pirates and cheaters from playing online.

It hasn't been identified in the public, but it has been identified.

They actually have a service to sell for once, so they have incentive to actually hire competent engineers to that end as I said.
 

enMTW

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
894
They actually have a service to sell for once, so they have incentive to actually hire competent engineers to that end as I said.

Nintendo doesn't have the competence. Charging money for the service is not relevant; Nintendo has always had an incentive to discourage piracy. Protecting people who pay $30 from cheaters surely comes way after protecting their own software sales in the eyes of Nintendo.

They are just unable to do so, for whatever reason, and always have. I suspect it is a workplace cultural issue, that the culture doesn't encourage taking time to do things the right (secure) way.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
The way I see it, it's just giving the power you have on a PC to a console or handheld system. If you own a computing device, why not run the software you want on it, as long as it's legal?
Yup, and the courts have made it perfectly clear this is the legal stance, even going to far to paint closed systems like iPhone as unfair restrictions on consumers. Anyone talking about what a device was "intended" to do is just regurgitating corporate PR spin that has no legal foundation.
 

SartrG

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
391
My real issue with hacking is how people immediately link it to piracy and how people do it simply because they want to steal.
Most hackers are against piracy and those that advocate or work towards piracy are frowned upon.

I'm not going to deny that opening up a system has their disadvantages. I remember the cheaters during the DS days ruining some games because nothing could do about them, but even that could be fixed nowadays with updates and patches in the always online world in which consoles live in now.

But the options made available once a system is open are great. I've played games that I couldn't because region locks have been bypassed and games that have been fan-translated (I've even helped in some translations). There are some good hacks that either improve small annoyances, framerates and even total conversions.
There have been amazing homebrew applications and games developed by people who love the system and think they could do something to make it even better. My DS at the time was a Music and Video player, a Wireless (Wi-Fi) PC controller, a personal organizer and, an offline Wikipedia and a drawing tablet! Hell, Collecting Smiles, the developers of Colors! DS, an excellent painting application went on and became an official developer for the 3DS with Colors! 3D.
 

Accoun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
Powder was my most played PSP game for a few months straight. Absolutely worth it - especially since actual roguelikes are a rare breed on consoles ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,704
Brazil
And I think the whole "it's about the homebrew scene" argument is a joke. Has there ever been a piece of homebrew created for a modded console that genuinely improved it in a crucial way that was not possible before? I've never heard of anything like that. Seems like there is always a rush to get Linux on a device then the scene quickly pivots to playing backups. 99.9% of people who soft mod their console do it for piracy, so can we please stop acting like this is all just unfortunate collateral damage of "the homebrew scene"?

In my experience, from the top of my head:
Disk installs for consoles 3 generations before disk intalls became a thing (it greatly increase the life of consoles)
DVD movie reading on the Wii (it was a huge feature at the time)
Remote control of computer for handhelds before Remote Play was a feature Sony claimed to be awesome at E3
For a long time homebrews were the only way to use the DS as a drawing tool. Colors!DS was such a huge thing (it even had pressure sensing, a feature nintendo didn't allow for official apps to use) that they even released an oficial eshop version for 3ds. Actual tablets that you draw on the screen are STILL insanely overpriced.
Use of external HDs for game installs, greatly increasing the amount of space for digital only games
Bringing back the online for games that had servers deleted
Game Shark like codes that fixed lots of people's problems like decreasing Fi's messages on Skyward or enabling Classic Controller for DKC Returns
Web Browsing in consoles that didn't had it

Really I just do not understand why so many people passionate about video games are totally supportive of people who open up the way for cheaters and pirates. Another common justification is "emulators". I always find it suspect how many people are seemingly super excited about being able to soft mod their device into the ultimate retro game machine when the phone in your pocket can do the same thing. Everyone on this board probably has 3 devices within arm reach that can already do the things you want your Switch to do.

I only have one shitty jurassic smart phone that
1- cannot be connected to the tv
2- does not accept any controllers that I have (specially not in a confortable way)
3- cannot run anything past snes
4- needs to be rooted so it accepts emulators

I find a lot of the justifications in this thread very wishy washy. People love to wax poetic about consumer rights, but when it comes to the right of content creators to receive a fair profit for their work and intellectual property suddenly people aren't so interested about making sure those people are not preyed upon.

Nobody is in favor of piracy. At worst we said it is not as bad as people make it sound (aka: does not decrease sales in a considerable way)

It makes the industry we all care about worse. This is not a great tradeoff for the ability to install a GBA emulator on your console. Of course you are free to do what you want with your hardware, but the rest of us are free to criticize, blame, and advocate for you to stop. And please, save your stories about how piracy is actually a positive and just admit you like free stuff.

Homebrew is where lots of devs came from.... Nintendo started putting secret messages on the DK board telling home brewers and hackers to call for a job.
Ms Pacman came from a modded version. The wonder boy dudes made a famous master system emulator (and you would know if you read the Q&A from era ;D).
It is a hard industry to enter so getting experience from whatever you can is good for you, specially considering how HARD is to get a devkit in some parts of the world (you have NO IDEA how hard is to get a nintendo devkit on brazil these days)
Virtual Console games were shown to use roms backed up by what you would call pirates.
Lots of studies show that piracy affects almost nothing because people who is pirating would not buy it anyway (see insane brazilian prices).

And yes, I love free stuff. You know what else decreases piracy? demos
 
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Deleted member 40853

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 9, 2018
873
My real issue with hacking is how people immediately link it to piracy and how people do it simply because they want to steal.
Most hackers are against piracy and those that advocate or work towards piracy are frowned upon.

I totally understand this stance and have no doubt that many hackers working on consoles are just hobbyists, but the reality is that almost all people soft modding their console are doing it for free games. I think it's a bit disingenuous to act like piracy is just an unfortunate side effect of homebrew and not the main attraction. People would not immediately link hacking with piracy if that was not what it was used for 99% of the time.

I do understand the position of these hackers, but at the same time you don't get to just make public all the knowledge and tools needed for piracy, declare "im against it tho", and then be absolved of all responsibility.
 

MetalBoi

Banned
Dec 21, 2017
3,176
I've heard people say that consoles can't be hacked, and that console online gaming is protected from cheating and hacking, but I've seen tons of it online. Games like Mario Kart, Battlefield, Halo, Starhawk etc.
 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
More consoles should go the Ms route: Have an open app API and open the store so anyone can develop for it. It completely takes away the need of hacking, and doesn't prevent the legitimate uses.

It doesn't hurt to design a really secure system as well xD
 

Deleted member 15538

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,387
Companies should be able to keep online play clean on consoles, never had an issue on PS4 but did notice some shenanigans in GTAO on PS3.
Switch as a little emulation machine just seems right, the snes classic already is for retro stuff on the big screen anyway.
 

Accoun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
Lots of posters on game forums, mostly from last gen.
I assume "mostly PS3" because I remember X360 being hacked fairly easily, at least in comparison.
But now that you mention it, yeah - I remember PS3 being known as the super secure, unhackable console. Kinda was a point in console wars online.
 

SartrG

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
391
I totally understand this stance and have no doubt that many hackers working on consoles are just hobbyists, but the reality is that almost all people soft modding their console are doing it for free games. I think it's a bit disingenuous to act like piracy is just an unfortunate side effect of homebrew and not the main attraction. People would not immediately link hacking with piracy if that was not what it was used for 99% of the time.

I do understand the position of these hackers, but at the same time you don't get to just make public all the knowledge and tools needed for piracy, declare "im against it tho", and then be absolved of all responsibility.

In this case, the ideal of hacking is opening-up a system that you own to do what you want with it. Piracy IS a side effect of opening up a system and I assure you that if the hackers that first release an exploit could do something to prevent piracy, they would but, as it happens with everything that can be exploited, there's always going to be someone that will, but that doesn't make the initial practice "bad".

It is the same problem as with many other things, it's a matter of morality from the end user's POV. It's like saying the main attraction for those building/buying a PC for gaming do it because piracy is really easy to achieve on PC.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I think we can move on from this point since OP already made a decent and gracious apology that made it pretty clear they understand why it wasn't an appropriate term to use in this context.

Whoops. Let me apologize in turn for not reading that far. :/

That say, in general it's not bad practice to edit the "offending" post, even if it's just to add a note at the end.
 

Axass

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,384
So, because they were lacking features, they deserved to be hacked?

(This is called victim blaming, by the way.)
Mega corporations with profits equal to that of small countries aren't "victims" due to people modifying their legally owned hardware. Corporate apologists are the worst.

Edit - I see this has already been discussed.
 

Ganado

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,176
Yes, when you save yourself annoying things like having to pay the creators of the games it's easy to have better prices
I guess it's easy for a kid to choose a 10 in one for 20 bucks rather than 1 game for 40. Thats what I did whenever we traveled to Asia since I couldn't afford games otherwise.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
Mega corporations with profits equal to that of small countries aren't "victims" due to people modifying their legally owned hardware. Corporate apologists are the worst.
It doesn't matter how rich someone/some company is, if they have their product stolen via piracy, they are literally a victim. Inverted commas do not undo facts.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
I mean going into victimization and victim blaming seems a little overblown, no ? We're talking about a company that is still seeing record profits.

As much as piracy is an issue, trying to humanize a company like Nintendo to be a part of some kind of victimhood seems uncalled for unless you're trying to make people teary-eyed over the plight of Nintendo.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,205
There are both positives and negatives for this.

Let's take OP's reasoning as to why they hate hacking as an example.

They got hit due to a malicious wonder trade that "corrupted" their save game.

If OP had been using CFW, they would have had the ability to back up their save games, thus being able to come back from such an event.

To put it bluntly?
This is a computer security user fail.
Computer security should be considered by *everyone*.
You have to realise that Hacks will happen regardless.
Stay informed and arm yourself with Beneficial tools, and you will be able to protect yourself from Malicious events.
 

Ganado

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,176
but here we all know that selling games at two dollars is not a viable model for developers
Of course, but I truly believe that most people that can afford games actually buys them and by saying that I look at myself. Used to be a "ruthless" pirate until I actually got money to buy the stuff I love. Call it entitled but I couldn't give a fuck and that's why I sympatise with many pirates (not all!). It isn't something to brag about though.
 

Shengar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,052
I see that most talks in this thread are discussion of futility. Not because of the discussion itself, but rather because each side speaks on the wrong thing at the wrong people.

Let me elaborate.

People who against console hacks are concerned about how hacks that eventually leads to piracy (and cheating) will affect the health of the platform future software library. Then those who support hacks and homebrew said that it is mostly meant for legal ripping of their game, and exercising their rights as the owner of said device. See, the former concern aren't answered by the latter argument because what the latter said is mostly applied to people on this forum who really only hacks for homebrew and still buy their game copy legally, This is ignoring the elephant in the room that is general public, whom let's face it, will use hacks for piracy if they view as more beneficial than buying games legally. So the former began shouting and spouting crazy nonsense over their concerns because this very problem doesn't get addressed by the latter. It just argumenting back and forth between how hacks lead to piracy (and cheating) from the former then the latter answered that it is their rights to exercise complete ownership over their device.

I don't think the former concern could be answered by the latter. This is beyond on what homebrew community in this particular forum could have done to either act on or discuss the potential answer. The homebrew community are just picking the ripened fruits that being tended by yes, the hackers. So really, this debate is pretty much futile if we don't talk about the potential problem of releasing console hacks, or releasing console hacks this early on the console life line specifically.

PSX was one of consoles where piracy was rampant and we still got so many great gems. DS allowed piracy and we got a lof of titles. PS2 too. PS3 too.

I dont really believe that software support depends on piracy. On PC I could download Frostpunk if I would want. Still sold 200k in just 66 hours.
Vermintide 2 is at over 1M on PC.

The situation with the PSX, and PS2 era aren't the same with Switch (or latter piracy after PSP in that matter), especially if we view the piracy only on the most important market for those two consoles (US and Japan). PSX and PS2 still requires physical copy of the pirated disk and this presents actual legal risk for the pirates (either the buyer, seller, and distributor) on those market where the revenues of those games coming from. PSX and PS2 piracy run so rampant in my country and it had been set the mindset that game should be cheap, if not free. And PS3 took years for it to be hacked and it makes it risky for people to go online with hacked console (when PSN was free and online console gaming booming, this is am actual factor).

And the situation with Steam is different on two thing: 1) There is no licensing fee 2) Steam offers service. On the developer/publisher side of things, piracy is a non-issue when releasing PC games on Steam. Note that digital adoption of PC game really helps it here by cutting the risk of physical manufacturing and distribution completely. Meanwhile when releasing on console platform, there is licensing fees and unsold games mean a huge loss because of manufacturing and distributing cost.

Let us not treat piracy on every era and platform as a single phenomena.
I think anyone can see that the flaws are Nintendo and nVidias fault - but on the subject of lawful and ethical...

What's ethical about breaking a software eco-system and providing the means to shatter crypto for a device - when its done for the notoriety?

If it damages legitimate sales - and it probably will - I cannot see releasing the details of this exploit as ethical. It might be what these groups do, and the blame for its coming into being might well lie squarely with the companies behind the product, but its not an ethical thing to my mind.

Again, if we're making health analogies - is this not like finding an anti-biotic resistant bacteria that affects a particular set of people, and then giving people the recipe or sample for that bacteria to the Internet at large?

You can argue it would always be released, and that might be the case, but to me - the choice to do so is a deliberate one and the earlier its done, the longer lasting the effect.

This is my stance on this matter too. All this concern over console hacks is about ethics that fall on the hackers themselves.

Your analogy sucks though.
 

Axass

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,384
It doesn't matter how rich someone/some company is, if they have their product stolen via piracy, they are literally a victim. Inverted commas do not undo facts.
"modifying their legally owned hardware" doesn't equal "having their product stolen via piracy".