ContraPoints | Canceling

PK Gaming

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,414
IMO there's a contingent of bread tube whose content or philosophy is centered on personality, and perhaps having also enjoyed a degree of celebration and its unique associated costs, have doubled down on the vagaries of self and somewhat atomized perspective to their detriment. I can totally appreciate that a whole bunch of disproportionate hate can maybe make one's senses go a little haywire. I also just think that culture moves really fast now and that in retrospect she shouldn't have been elevated so high in the first place, because it's not really like she ever was that substantive to begin with ideologically, and her stuff is kind of about her. But I'm also kind of sick of this edgy millennial thing of not looking all that far beyond themselves and then suffering serious injury to their person when someone finds an issue with something that they say. I feel like I'm too old to care about personalities, I'd rather just not have to hear about this shit. But that just seems really hard to avoid. Like if your primary appeal is based in personality then you're courting an appeal that's fundamentally volatile because it's essentially based in charm or image than anything all that valuable (imo).
I don't really disagree with the larger point you're trying to make, but I think "edgy millennial thing" is a weird phrase to ascribe to a very human reaction. If anything, boomers (and zoomers) are way more likely to implode when met with any sort of prolonged negativity (in different ways, lol).
 

Border

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,229
Again, why are you inventing hypotheticals here? "But what if people do a different thing than what we're talking about? What then!"
None of these propositions about "It doesn't matter because she was not @'ed" were ever framed as exclusive and specific to this particular situation, so when it's brought up as a presumably generalized standard or rule then I will address it as such.
Seriously, you evaded responding to the question I asked you at the beginning and end of my first reply to you: Do you think what happened here, the thing that actually happened in real life that is observable in the video that we are discussing, is harassment? Note: I'm not asking "Do you think you can come up with a hypothetical that might be harassment," I am asking you, the ResetEra poster Border: Are the tweets we are talking about in the video which were not DMs or @s to her harassment?
If the nasty comments were just shouted into the chatroom-esque cacophonic void of Twitter and immediately lost to time and noise, it is hard to qualify them as harassment. The problem is that Twitter is fairly public forum, and what's said there gets re-Tweeted and quoted in mainstream web/media articles. It gets read by people who send it back to the target in more direct communications. It influences community attitudes towards a notable public figure. I don't think anyone who said that stuff needs to be harangued or shamed, but this "Well but they didn't say it directly to her" loophole strikes me as poorly trying to absolve toxic and abusive behavior. If you talk shit about someone behind their back for the purpose of poisoning others against them that really isn't much better than saying it to their face. At the same time I recognize that people should be allowed to voice their anger or discontent....there's perhaps a better way to go about it, but I'm unsure of what the solution really is.
 

En Avant

Alt account
Banned
Dec 28, 2019
74
I want to hear more about this. I associate with a lot of nonbinary trans people and I can't say I see much of anything resembling this?
These are the 3 big ones:

-the belief that trans people have a moral obligation to be visible activists, and efforts to pass or go stealth should be shamed, discouraged, and considered traitorous to "the community"

-terf-esque "abolish gender" rhetoric that inherently erases the identities of every binary trans person

-That physical gender dysphoria does not exist, and all negative feelings a Trans person has is strictly due to societal mistreatment and not an actual mismatch between their body and identity.
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
797
Spain
I feel like the general consensus on "random Twitter takes are harrassment" changes every single thread in this forum and it's hard to keep up when it supposedly is and when it supposedly isn't.

And by the way, no, I think harrassment is not the word in this case, but I understand how painful this must be for her and I don't think this is warranted.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
12,332
a sunken pirate ship
These are the 3 big ones:

-the belief that trans people have a moral obligation to be visible activists, and efforts to pass or go stealth should be shamed, discouraged, and considered traitorous to "the community"

-terf-esque "abolish gender" rhetoric that inherently erases the identities of every binary trans person

-That physical gender dysphoria does not exist, and all negative feelings a Trans person has is strictly due to societal mistreatment and not an actual mismatch between their body and identity.
I agree with you that both the first and third claims are harmful. I don't know of many visible trans people who specifically want to exist in the position of "activist" rather than having to exist in that space as a means of ensuring their own survival, though. The idea that physical dysphoria is not real is either borne out of outmoded notions of duality in the spirit of Descartes or ignore the fact that hormone replacement therapy is helpful and necessary for most people to transition. I would believe there are people making these claims, but I don't know who they are or where they are gathering. They are, of course, obviously wrong on multiple levels and I share your frustration in having to see them.

I do not agree with the notion that the abolition of gender is the erasure of binary identities, however -- no more so than the abolition of the structure of whiteness is the cultural erasure of people with light skin; that's not what people are arguing for when they say that. The notions of gender categories are, after all, socially constructed, and beyond that this construction is nowhere near consistent across communities. Nobody slots perfectly into these categories, often as a result of components to their identity that they have no control over, and the point of "abolish gender" is to end the policing of identity that requires people to slot themselves into one of usually two very rigid behavioral categories. There will still be people who identify themselves as "man" or "woman". Further, I don't particularly believe that TERF orthodoxy is to call for the abolition of gender at all, because they are extremely eager, often violently so, to maintain the assignment of gender given to trans individuals at birth.
 

Icemonk191

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,675
These are the 3 big ones:

-the belief that trans people have a moral obligation to be visible activists, and efforts to pass or go stealth should be shamed, discouraged, and considered traitorous to "the community"

-terf-esque "abolish gender" rhetoric that inherently erases the identities of every binary trans person

-That physical gender dysphoria does not exist, and all negative feelings a Trans person has is strictly due to societal mistreatment and not an actual mismatch between their body and identity.
Yeah i haven't seen this in any trans community that I've been in. Maybe you need to find a new group to hang out with.
 

ZealousD

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,266
User Banned (2 Weeks): Hijacking a sensitive discussion to complain about minorities airing their grievances
So, Natalie hurt a lot of NB people. Lots of trans people and non-binary people were upset by her past twitter comments and her working with Buck Angel. There was recognition of a pattern in some of her behavior and that behavior was upsetting. I had expressed some frustration in the past thread about some of the response, some of which may not have been proper and fully thought out on my part, but I was and still am frustrated that a lot of people weren't giving her the time to assess the situation and do a proper response.

Many people were hoping or expecting for an apology. And this video wasn't fully that. She did apologize for some of her Twitter comments but didn't apologize for the Buck Angel thing. And so for some of the people who were upset about that, she didn't necessarily give those people what they needed to heal from what she did. Natalie is somebody that a lot of trans people respected. And her doing something that hurts you is going to hurt you more if you do respect her. You put at least some faith and trust in that person, and so if they hurt you it can feel like a betrayal. Whatever verbal diarrhea comes out of the mouth of some "intellectual dark web" idiot like Ben Shapiro isn't going to do nearly as much damage because you never respected somebody like that in the first place.

So I am hearing the perspectives of many of the NB people on Era who were hurt. But I am also hearing the perspectives of NB people on other platforms who weren't hurt. I am also hearing the perspectives of NB people on other platforms who were hurt or were troubled but what she did, but who watched this latest video and forgave Natalie. I am not really a marginalized person but I am trying to listen and it all doesn't match. So I have to come to my own conclusions after listening to all of those perspectives.

And my conclusion is that it's better for me to continue to watch her content. It's my conclusion that I should support her on Patreon. She does a lot of great work. Her content has been intellectually stimulating and I hear from so many about how what she is doing has improved their lives, pulled them from a darker place, pulled them out of the alt-right pipeline. I think the internet is a better place with her as a prominent voice. She is not immune from criticism, but she works harder and smarter on her videos that almost anyone else on YouTube, I think.

And I would like it if ResetEra was a forum where we could listen to perspectives on her content. I would like to be able chime in and talk about it. But my fear is that ResetEra is simply not going to be a place where we can have that. My fear is that from now on, every thread about every ContraPoints video is going to be derailed with people coming in and going "hey, remember when Natalie hurt a lot of NB people?"

For people who were hurt and are currently frustrated and need to talk about it, I do think this current thread is the proper time and place to discuss it. So, be free to say whatever you need to say and I'll continue to sit back and listen to what people are saying. But I worry about the direction of future ContraPoints threads.
 

Icemonk191

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,675
And I would like it if ResetEra was a forum where we could listen to perspectives on her content. I would like to be able chime in and talk about it. But my fear is that ResetEra is simply not going to be a place where we can have that. My fear is that from now on, every thread about every ContraPoints video is going to be derailed with people coming in and going "hey, remember when Natalie hurt a lot of NB people?"
DP but yeah no shit people are gonna keep bringing it up. Having a shitty history talking about non-binary people then promoting a bigot and then defending that bigot constantly is not something people forget about nor should they.

Honestly your post is basically gatekeeping and is unwelcomed.
 

A.By

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,642
If that wasn't your intent then I apologize for misreading your post.

But there's a lot of rhetoric in the Trans community that has become increasingly common the past couple years that is incredibly offensive and invalidating to binary trans people and their lived experiences, as well as a bunch of outright shaming and hostility directed towards Trans people who want to pass and especially towards those who wish or choose to go stealth. It's completely unacceptable and needs to be called out a lot more than it currently is.
As a trans person who knows a number of enby people, I've not known anyone who acts like that. I see people pushing the notion that it's okay to not pass, and suggesting that it can be unhealthy to chase after it at the expense of one's mental health, but not "it's bad that you want to pass."
 

beelulzebub

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,035
And I would like it if ResetEra was a forum where we could listen to perspectives on her content. I would like to be able chime in and talk about it. But my fear is that ResetEra is simply not going to be a place where we can have that. My fear is that from now on, every thread about every ContraPoints video is going to be derailed with people coming in and going "hey, remember when Natalie hurt a lot of NB people?"

For people who were hurt and are currently frustrated and need to talk about it, I do think this current thread is the proper time and place to discuss it. So, be free to say whatever you need to say and I'll continue to sit back and listen to what people are saying. But I worry about the direction of future ContraPoints threads.
I mean, wouldn’t this be like CDPR or THQN threads where people are free to discuss the topic at hand but are also free to bring their grievances to the table? I don’t see how that would get in the way for you since it doesn’t for others in those threads.

If you truly respect those NB people hurt by Natalie as you said you did, I’m not sure why you wouldn’t want to allow them space if their hurt hasn’t been properly addressed.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,543
I don't really have skin in this game, but I thought it was a good video.

EDIT: I will say this: it is disappointing to see how many people refuse to watch the video just because it's long and then proceed to shit on her in this thread for things she addresses in the video.

It suggests to me that these posters are not all that interested in hearing her thoughts on the several topics in question because it's not a twitter thread.
 
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Border

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,229
User Banned (2 Weeks): Hijacking a sensitive discussion to complain about minorities airing their grievances.
I mean, wouldn’t this be like CDPR or THQN threads where people are free to discuss the topic at hand but are also free to bring their grievances to the table?
Interest in the games of CDPR, THQN, or Blizzard are so sweeping and broad that threads related to those companies can ultimately weather the controversy. I figure that future Contrapoints threads will be like those of other controversial YouTube figures, where every new piece of content is mostly met with a lengthy and litigious argument over past grievances (see also: Dunkey, crowbcat, AVGN, NakeyJakey, etc). Not that I necessarily blame the people who take issue, but when the audience is smaller and the creator's content is less prolific then old wounds more frequently become the main topic. I suppose we will wait and see where things wind up, but the last Lindsay Ellis thread immediately went south and her offenses have been far less controversial than Wynn's.
 
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Ellyshia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
142
These are the 3 big ones:

-the belief that trans people have a moral obligation to be visible activists, and efforts to pass or go stealth should be shamed, discouraged, and considered traitorous to "the community"

-terf-esque "abolish gender" rhetoric that inherently erases the identities of every binary trans person

-That physical gender dysphoria does not exist, and all negative feelings a Trans person has is strictly due to societal mistreatment and not an actual mismatch between their body and identity.
I'm sure there are people out there who feel this way, but I can tell you in my 5 years of exploring trans spaces, I have never run into any groups that expressed these thoughts.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
9,718
And I would like it if ResetEra was a forum where we could listen to perspectives on her content. I would like to be able chime in and talk about it. But my fear is that ResetEra is simply not going to be a place where we can have that. My fear is that from now on, every thread about every ContraPoints video is going to be derailed with people coming in and going "hey, remember when Natalie hurt a lot of NB people?"
Little bit ironic don't you think. We've just come off the back of months of trans/non-binary people feeling like they have no room to express their thoughts on threads concerning their issues and then one thread into the new rules we have people hand-wringing about the 'fear' of them not being able to discuss things without non-binary people derailing the thread?

Perhaps if people were less inclined to dismiss, shout down to or talking over trans/non-binary people expressing those things it wouldn't be such a derail. That we might be critical of these things without people instantly reaching for their pearls or posting snide remarks that conflate us with the harrassment she experiences. That they use the videos message around that as an excuse to further beat out the minority they shine their ally badge for elsewhere.

You have non-binary people in this thread saying they enjoyed the video and feel it ties the knot on everything for them, yet you feel the need to narrow out those that feel this video wasn't the best as being people who we should now be fearful of ruining future threads.
 
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ScribbleD

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,401
I don't really have skin in this game, but I thought it was a good video.

EDIT: I will say this: it is disappointing to see how many people refuse to watch the video just because it's long and then proceed to shit on her in this thread for things she addresses in the video.

It suggests to me that these posters are not all that interested in hearing her thoughts on the several topics in question because it's not a twitter thread.
Your post suggests to me that you are not all that interested in hearing NB people's thoughts.
 
Feb 8, 2019
970
I don't really have skin in this game, but I thought it was a good video.

EDIT: I will say this: it is disappointing to see how many people refuse to watch the video just because it's long and then proceed to shit on her in this thread for things she addresses in the video.

It suggests to me that these posters are not all that interested in hearing her thoughts on the several topics in question because it's not a twitter thread.
This has been discussed already. There are some very specific points made in the video that undermine a lot of others things. There are many instances of people ignoring said points with the rhetoric of "But what about the rest of the video?"
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,543
This has been discussed already. There are some very specific points made in the video that undermine a lot of others things. There are many instances of people ignoring said points with the rhetoric of "But what about the rest of the video?"
I say this was no hostility or snark: is that not a valid point? Like taking one tweet out of a thread, taking one point out of a 1hr 40min video removes it from a large amount of context. Which points are considered the most problematic?
 
Feb 8, 2019
970
I say this was no hostility or snark: is that not a valid point?
Not if it undermines the rest.
For example there was mention on how she had publicly ousted some of her tormentors when the messages she was reading only dubiously counted as harassment. For a video in which she is clearly against people being swarmed by online outrage this ends up being pretty lame. It's also a little telling that when referring to the video as a whole stuff like that is left out by the people who "watched all of it"
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,543
For example there was mention on how she had publicly ousted some of her tormentors when the messages she was reading only dubiously counted as harassment.
I think most if not all the tweets she quoted of people giving her shit were way out of line. I don't think she shouldn't be criticised, and more importantly SHE doesn't think she shouldn't be criticised. The main point I took away from this video is that the ferocity of the criticism can afford to be dialed down a notch or two.

Surely the target of the harassment is the best authority on what does and doesn't count as harassment? She talks about her own depression and suicidal thoughts in this video, there has to be a better way to deal with these sorts of situations.
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,333
"It's not harassment if the people attacking don't @ you"

Is this really a wise or reasonable standard to set? If this were a member of Left-tube being targeted by the alt-right, I doubt people would be tripping over themselves to invent this weird loophole that excuses the toxic environment created by this sort of sentiment. Some notable time in the video is devoted to the idea that none of these individual voices have much effect on their own, but cumulatively they add up to a whole lot.
"Minorities shouldn't be able to publicly talk shit about an influential person who is saying hurtful things about them"

Is that a wise or reasonable standard to set?

What you're comparing this to is a privileged group (the alt-right) harassing minorities and sometimes people who speak up for minorities. This is trans and genderqueer people venting about a large influential person. A large influential person who people listen to to learn about trans and genderqueer people, who justt talked about said group with disgust and signal boosted someone who does the same thing. Are you really sure you want to compare the alt-right harassing minorities to this?

This is also while Contrapoints, someone with way more of a following than any of the people talking shit about her, is showing screenshots of trans and genderqueer people who are venting about her after she talked shit about them. Which even with their names blacked out, could very easily cause them to be harassed by part of her incredibly large following who could just search the text of the tweets and find them. Which would actually result into Twitter becoming unusable for them.

Meanwhile all the power of these cumulative voices caused Contrapoints to have to... stop searching for her own name on Twitter to stop seeing people be angry about her. And she can just keep making money by making videos where she signal boosts truscum, and while the entirety of left tube defends her from the horrible threat that is genderqueer people the hate mob.

So, you know, the usual supposedly horrific way that cancel culture affects influential people.
 
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trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,333
Are you honestly saying she talked about genderqueer people with disgust in this video? Where? Which part?
I'm talking about when those people were making those tweets, though considering this video spends ten minutes acting as if trans/genderqueer people venting about her are people harassing her, and spends twenty minutes defending Buck Angel....... i'm going to guess she still doesn't have a high opinion of genderqueer people.
 
Nov 1, 2017
791
I don't really have skin in this game, but I thought it was a good video.

EDIT: I will say this: it is disappointing to see how many people refuse to watch the video just because it's long and then proceed to shit on her in this thread for things she addresses in the video.

It suggests to me that these posters are not all that interested in hearing her thoughts on the several topics in question because it's not a twitter thread.
So if people with skin in the game aren't interested in watching the video maybe it's not because they aren't interested in the topics but because they no longer find this narrator as valuable as you do
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,543
User Banned (2 Weeks): Ignoring staff post; dismissive and antagonistic behavior over a series of posts.
So if people with skin in the game aren't interested in watching the video maybe it's not because they aren't interested in the topics but because they no longer find this narrator as valuable as you do
Well yeah, cause she's been cancelled. That's the situation. How is she supposed to make up for or clarify or explain her actions if the effected communities don't listen to her response?

It's one thing to watch this video and to still want more from her or to be disappointed with her arguments, but to not even watch and continue to pile shit on her as if she never addressed any of the complaints just seems dishonest.
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,333
Well yeah, cause she's been cancelled. That's the situation. How is she supposed to make up for or clarify or explain her actions if the effected communities don't listen to her response?

It's one thing to watch this video and to still want more from her or to be disappointed with her arguments, but to not even watch and continue to pile shit on her as if she never addressed any of the complaints just seems dishonest.
Oh fun we’re at the “you can’t be mad at this Youtuber cause you didn’t watch their video” stage of arguments.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,543
Oh fun we’re at the “you can’t be mad at this Youtuber cause you didn’t watch their video” stage of arguments.
This video is her first proper response to the recent controversy. It seems odd to me that people who clearly care enough for her mistakes to upset them, don't care enough to see what she has to say for herself.
 
Oct 25, 2017
286
Oh fun we’re at the “you can’t be mad at this Youtuber cause you didn’t watch their video” stage of arguments.
People are under no obligation to watch her videos or listen to what she has to say anymore, for sure. But it does put discussion at an impasse, I guess, if her means of expressing contrition or otherwise explaining herself aren't to be heard. Absolutely people have the right to consider the whole thing too far gone to care to listen, but it does put those of us discussing it in a bit of a Catch 22 situation... I'm coming to the opinion that it genuinely would be more helpful for the community if people like myself bowed out of these threads entirely, and I don't say that with any kind of animosity. I just don't know if there's anything people who still find her thoughts on other topics valuable can add to these discussions without hurting and angering other people, and that's the last thing I want to do.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,085
Well yeah, cause she's been cancelled. That's the situation. How is she supposed to make up for or clarify or explain her actions if the effected communities don't listen to her response?
The solution is to not integrate her explanation for her actions into what is also regularly scheduled content for her channel. Otherwise it kinda feels like a situation of "you need to keep watching Contrapoints videos in order to justify not watching Contrapoints videos" for someone who's aggrieved
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,333
This video is her first proper response to the recent controversy. It seems odd to me that people who clearly care enough for her mistakes to upset them, don't care enough to see what she has to say for herself.
It’s not her first response, it’s not that different from her previous responses either.

And I’m just saying, the way people defend Contrapoints is looking more and more like how people defend reactionaries.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,543
The solution is to not integrate her explanation for her actions into what is also regularly scheduled content for her channel. Otherwise it kinda feels like a situation of "you need to keep watching Contrapoints videos in order to justify not watching Contrapoints videos" for someone who's aggrieved
A fair point, but there's a reason her long form videos are successful. She's good at them. It makes sense that she would use one as a means of getting all her thoughts down.

This video will either be enough for you or it won't, and if it isn't that's totally fine. But at least hear her out.
 

Prophet Steve

Member
Oct 26, 2017
472
The solution is to not integrate her explanation for her actions into what is also regularly scheduled content for her channel. Otherwise it kinda feels like a situation of "you need to keep watching Contrapoints videos in order to justify not watching Contrapoints videos" for someone who's aggrieved
The trouble with using another platform is that you do not target the same audience and probably a smaller audience. Doing it through a tweet or blog for example has less chance of covering the same audience as the video causing part of what has made people upset.

However I do think she should have done it as a way shorter more focused not ad-supported video to do a better apology or justification as she does a bit of both.

I get why she has done it her "regular" way, but I do think it does not work effectively to make amends.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,085
The trouble with using another platform is that you do not target the same audience and probably a smaller audience. Doing it through a tweet or blog for example has less chance of covering the same audience as the video causing part of what make people upset.
This is true, but the people who were upset by the buck Angel stuff are also going to be the people who are engaged enough to find it. I'm also not saying i should be a totally separate medium or platform; a video response would be fine, but including a discussion of the ethics of her individual actions into a discussion of cancellation writ large does a disservice to both imo
 

aevanhoe

Member
Aug 28, 2018
1,598
I'm talking about when those people were making those tweets, though considering this video spends ten minutes acting as if trans/genderqueer people venting about her are people harassing her, and spends twenty minutes defending Buck Angel....... i'm going to guess she still doesn't have a high opinion of genderqueer people.
I don’t see her defending him, rather defending herself. But either way, I don’t get how her video is disgust towards genderqueer people. She has issue with people who tweeted her some rather nasty things (justified or not, I am not in a position to say) - and that somehow means “she’s disgusted with genderqueer people”. This generalization tactic is actually in the video, ffs. I’m trying not to take sides here, but you’re really making her point with this reasoning.
 
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excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
43,351
So, Natalie hurt a lot of NB people. Lots of trans people and non-binary people were upset by her past twitter comments and her working with Buck Angel. There was recognition of a pattern in some of her behavior and that behavior was upsetting. I had expressed some frustration in the past thread about some of the response, some of which may not have been proper and fully thought out on my part, but I was and still am frustrated that a lot of people weren't giving her the time to assess the situation and do a proper response.

Many people were hoping or expecting for an apology. And this video wasn't fully that. She did apologize for some of her Twitter comments but didn't apologize for the Buck Angel thing. And so for some of the people who were upset about that, she didn't necessarily give those people what they needed to heal from what she did. Natalie is somebody that a lot of trans people respected. And her doing something that hurts you is going to hurt you more if you do respect her. You put at least some faith and trust in that person, and so if they hurt you it can feel like a betrayal. Whatever verbal diarrhea comes out of the mouth of some "intellectual dark web" idiot like Ben Shapiro isn't going to do nearly as much damage because you never respected somebody like that in the first place.

So I am hearing the perspectives of many of the NB people on Era who were hurt. But I am also hearing the perspectives of NB people on other platforms who weren't hurt. I am also hearing the perspectives of NB people on other platforms who were hurt or were troubled but what she did, but who watched this latest video and forgave Natalie. I am not really a marginalized person but I am trying to listen and it all doesn't match. So I have to come to my own conclusions after listening to all of those perspectives.

And my conclusion is that it's better for me to continue to watch her content. It's my conclusion that I should support her on Patreon. She does a lot of great work. Her content has been intellectually stimulating and I hear from so many about how what she is doing has improved their lives, pulled them from a darker place, pulled them out of the alt-right pipeline. I think the internet is a better place with her as a prominent voice. She is not immune from criticism, but she works harder and smarter on her videos that almost anyone else on YouTube, I think.

And I would like it if ResetEra was a forum where we could listen to perspectives on her content. I would like to be able chime in and talk about it. But my fear is that ResetEra is simply not going to be a place where we can have that. My fear is that from now on, every thread about every ContraPoints video is going to be derailed with people coming in and going "hey, remember when Natalie hurt a lot of NB people?"

For people who were hurt and are currently frustrated and need to talk about it, I do think this current thread is the proper time and place to discuss it. So, be free to say whatever you need to say and I'll continue to sit back and listen to what people are saying. But I worry about the direction of future ContraPoints threads.
Yeah see when you do shitty things and don't actually make amends... people don't forget

I'm happy you felt announcing your continued viewership and financial backing was such an important thing to let everyone know about.
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,333
I don’t see her defending him, rather defending herself. But either way, I don’t get how her video is disgust towards genderqueer people. She has issue with people who tweeted her some rather nasty things (justified or not, I am not in a position to say) - and that somehow means “she’s disgusted with genderqueer people”. This generalization tactic is actually in the video, ffs. I’m trying not to take sides here, but you’re really making her point with this reasoning.
So she isn’t disgusted with genderqueer people, she is just disgusted with genderqueer people who are vocal about their frustration with her issues with genderqueer people.

okay
 

Oreiller

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,251
I don’t see her defending him, rather defending herself. But either way, I don’t get how her video is disgust towards genderqueer people. She has issue with people who tweeted her some rather nasty things (justified or not, I am not in a position to say) - and that somehow means “she’s disgusted with genderqueer people”. This generalization tactic is actually in the video, ffs. I’m trying not to take sides here, but you’re really making her point with this reasoning.
Maybe listen to what genderqueer folks are telling you instead of being obtuse and defensive.
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
797
Spain
So she isn’t disgusted with genderqueer people, she is just disgusted with genderqueer people who are vocal about their frustration with her issues with genderqueer people.

okay
She is not disgusted with genderqueer people, she is disgusted with people that are calling her names and posting mean tweets directed at her en masse over issues she genuinely believes are not true.

I suggest you to watch her video again, and her point at 7:22. Because it is exactly what is happening here.
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,333
She is not disgusted with genderqueer people, she is disgusted with people that are calling her names and posting mean tweets directed at her en masse over issues she genuinely believes are not true.

I suggest you to watch her video again, and her point at 7:22. Because it is exactly what is happening here.
About her, not at her. And maybe she should do some self reflection about why trans and genderqueer people are posting mean tweets about her instead of acting as if it’s a harassment hate mob.
 

hidys

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
661
On the whole I thought this video was fantastic.
I guess she was a bit too ready to dismiss Buck outing Lana but on the whole the video was great and I don’t begrudge Contra for standing by Buck/her choice to have him voice Waters.

I thought it was very informative on the effects of “cancelling” and how it affects those in marginalised groups.
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,333
I thought it was very informative on the effects of “cancelling” and how it affects those in marginalised groups.
lol

didn't know that when someone does a 100 minute video about cancel culture being bad that's also supposed to act as an apology after being called out for saying and supporting hateful shit, that that's good now actually.
 
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Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
11,496
I don’t see her defending him, rather defending herself. But either way, I don’t get how her video is disgust towards genderqueer people. She has issue with people who tweeted her some rather nasty things (justified or not, I am not in a position to say) - and that somehow means “she’s disgusted with genderqueer people”. This generalization tactic is actually in the video, ffs. I’m trying not to take sides here, but you’re really making her point with this reasoning.
Yeah, it’s crazy how her video calls out their tactics and people will just reproduce the essentiallism and distortion of her actual views to build a strawman easier to cancel.

Reading some posts here you would have trouble differentiating someone talking about her or Rush Limbaugh
 

umop 3pisdn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,562
I don't really disagree with the larger point you're trying to make, but I think "edgy millennial thing" is a weird phrase to ascribe to a very human reaction. If anything, boomers (and zoomers) are way more likely to implode when met with any sort of prolonged negativity (in different ways, lol).
Fair enough, I guess I was just meaning to say that I’m finding Natalie to be a bit of an unsatisfying middle ground between the glib iconoclastic and somewhat atomized/self-focused/ privileged gen-x thing and the more legit or considered social consciousness that we seem to expect of people these days. Though I’d say Lindsay Ellis is the worse example of that sort of thing. I’m actually the same age as Natalie so I feel like I kind of know her cultural background with the whole Hitchens atheist/‘rationalist’ thing. And I’m prone to bouts of ‘edginess’ too so I can’t criticize it too much without being a hypocrite. It just strikes me as familiar in a way that breeds contempt.
 

newgamewhodis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
798
Brooklyn
About her, not at her. And maybe she should do some self reflection about why trans and genderqueer people are posting mean tweets about her instead of acting as if it’s a harassment hate mob.
Isn't that what she's doing? In her own messy, slightly off-the-rails, self-deprecating way?

I don't know...I've been watching Contrapoints for several years now. What I see here (and in her previous controversies) is the inevitable collision between Natalie's philosophical background, which compels her to try and understand and reason for or against a multitude of viewpoints, be they problematic, bigoted or otherwise, and the leftist definition of harassment, where any ponderance lent to such a view could be seen as abuse or harm. And I get it. As Natalie herself pointed out, bigots have really made it hard to discern the dog whistles from ignorance or misinformation on the internet.

But, as ungracefully, and, perhaps, a little caught up in the moment, as her defense was, can we not admit that she has a point? That harassment has another, longer standing definition, and Twitter and other anonymous online forums run rampant with it. We all played Xbox Live, or went on Omegle back in the day. We know how dark the internet can be. I don't think Natalie has really expressed a solution. And I know I'd love a solution for a more kind internet, too. "Influential people" often don't ask for their platform in the first place. This modern assertion that creators have to not only be consistently and radically vulnerable online to have a living, but also at all times put forward moral strength just seems a bit...antithetical to humanity?

I work in social justice and criminal justice circles, and it's getting harder and harder for me to reckon with the unambiguity of canceling/online hate mobs versus the calls for prison abolition/rehabilitation/self-care. We are all human. We all can be better. Art is not unimpeachable, but critiquing it doesn't have to be so viciously ad hominem.
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,333
Isn't that what she's doing? In her own messy, slightly off-the-rails, self-deprecating way?

I don't know...I've been watching Contrapoints for several years now. What I see here (and in her previous controversies) is the inevitable collision between Natalie's philosophical background, which compels her to try and understand and reason for or against a multitude of viewpoints, be they problematic, bigoted or otherwise, and the leftist definition of harassment, where any ponderance lent to such a view could be seen as abuse or harm. And I get it. As Natalie herself pointed out, bigots have really made it hard to discern the dog whistles from ignorance or misinformation on the internet.

But, as ungracefully, and, perhaps, a little caught up in the moment, as her defense was, can we not admit that she has a point? That harassment has another, longer standing definition, and Twitter and other anonymous online forums run rampant with it. We all played Xbox Live, or went on Omegle back in the day. We know how dark the internet can be. I don't think Natalie has really expressed a solution. And I know I'd love a solution for a more kind internet, too. "Influential people" often don't ask for their platform in the first place. This modern assertion that creators have to not only be consistently and radically vulnerable online to have a living, but also at all times put forward moral strength just seems a bit...antithetical to humanity?

I work in social justice and criminal justice circles, and it's getting harder and harder for me to reckon with the unambiguity of canceling/online hate mobs versus the calls for prison abolition/rehabilitation/self-care. We are all human. We all can be better. Art is not unimpeachable, but critiquing it doesn't have to be so viciously ad hominem.
I did admit she kinda had a point in my first post in this thread. I also don't believe she's making it sincerely.
Honestly there’s stuff that appear as decent points about there being crowds who go too far when someone gets “cancelled”/called out on their bullshit. Mainly with people going after anyone associated with the the bullshit person. It seems like those arguments are all in service for some “woe is me cause people found out i dislike nonbinary people” message, while also defending people who defended her bullshit.

I also absolutely don’t believe she’s sincerely making the argument that “cancel culture is bad actually” when she is posting screencaps of people who are sick of her bullshit under the guise of acting like those people were harassing her. When those people weren’t even replying to her, they were just talking about her. Almost as if she’s a big figure whose statements can affect people’s views on trans people, and that thus people are going to discuss her bullshit or something.

Love to ride my horse of “calling out influential people is bad actually” while calling out people less influential than me for saying that i’m using my influence to say harmful shit.
 

newgamewhodis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
798
Brooklyn
Messiness=/=insincerity

It's a tough argument to make, because it involves her character. And, being honest about myself, sometimes the difference between sincerity and self-delusion is an indiscernible shade. That's what therapy is for!

I did notice that she didn't fully commit to making those subtweets anonymous, and I think that's a fuck up on her part. But I also would hope (naively, yes) that people who had bothered to watch the video might get that a point she revisits throughout the video is that she is entirely against hate mobs and NOT go sleuthing.
 

aevanhoe

Member
Aug 28, 2018
1,598
Maybe listen to what genderqueer folks are telling you instead of being obtuse and defensive.
It’s really hard to have any discussion like this, because you’re setting this up in a way where anything I say that you disagree with, you can just claim I have no say in it. And I would agree with that if we were talking about what genderqueer people are feeling. We’re not. I am not discussing how genderqueer people feel or should feel, nor I am telling them how they should respond or not. In matters of their identity and feelings toward their identity it is not my place to say or claim anything.

I am talking about the video. Disgust with something is a very clear and deliberate act, and I don’t see it anywhere in the video. But, ok. You tell me I need to listen? Fine - show me where this video demonstrates the disgust to genderqueer people. I honestly don’t see it, so explain it to me.

Why am I asking you to do this? Because I learned quite a bit from Contrapoints. I changed my mind about certain things because of what I learned. I always respected what the channel was about. First of all, it’s hard to create anything, let alone something that promotes acceptance on YouTube. So, now I’m seeing calls to boycott her channel, the one channel that helped not only me, but a lot of my friends understand certain things we would never know about (heck, I didn’t know about transmedicalism or truescum before this video - it’s not like this stuff was taught in schools). So if you all are asking people like me to stop watching her videos - you better give some good reason for it. Saying she’s “disgusted by all genderqueer people” in that video - I mean, ok, that’s a good reason. But show me where. Where is she disgusted? And while you’re at it, tell me how I’m obtuse and defensive by asking this question.

Again: you said to listen - so I am asking and listening.