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ContraPoints - Men
- Thread starter Veliladon
- Start date
Uh.
1. We look at male privileged in a way that created a blind spot for some basic men.
2. Relevant experiences between being a man and a woman from a trans persective + some race stuff.
3. White boys shooting up shit cause nobody loves them.
4. We could do better.
Or something idk.
I don't like the joke at the end, but the video was pretty good.
The clothing choice is great,but that position looks painful.
Man(get it), there's a lot of interesting stuff to unpack here. She definitely (delicately) steps on some toes and not necessarily only the ones you would assume. Lots of great questions and not a lot of easy answers.
She actually advocates for something different than what you are doing here.
I think her conclusion is correct too. The left needs a better answer than toxic masculinity if we are actually going to change men for the better. Otherwise there will continue to be a growing group of young men jumping into the worst parts of the "manosphere".
Having not watched it yet, I'm going to guess that she doesn't go straight for the condemnation route. She usually attempts to come to an understanding with her subjects rather than go straight for the jugular (see: the incels video).
Loved the video c:
One thing I think could help guys who are considered "lost" are programs where guys hang out. Not just gaming or whatever... but learning and building. A focus on pretty betterment than isolation that leads to reinforcement of negativity.
I think it was a previous video where she referenced how previous generations dealt with their angst. "Guys in the 70s played guitars" or similar.
Personally. I found redirecting any anger or frustrations I had into creation. Learning everything from fixing cars, home repairs, electronic repairs, and even armor making and painting!
I mess up sometimes and to be honest with you sometimes it's absolutely frustrating doing something that you see online is supposed to only take you two hours but because you can't get that damn part loosen, it takes longer! But! In the end, when you accomplish it, it makes it all the worthwhile.
but as I said it's one of those things that I can only attest to myself and it was only part of thing that helped me.
One thing I think could help guys who are considered "lost" are programs where guys hang out. Not just gaming or whatever... but learning and building. A focus on pretty betterment than isolation that leads to reinforcement of negativity.
I think it was a previous video where she referenced how previous generations dealt with their angst. "Guys in the 70s played guitars" or similar.
Personally. I found redirecting any anger or frustrations I had into creation. Learning everything from fixing cars, home repairs, electronic repairs, and even armor making and painting!
I mess up sometimes and to be honest with you sometimes it's absolutely frustrating doing something that you see online is supposed to only take you two hours but because you can't get that damn part loosen, it takes longer! But! In the end, when you accomplish it, it makes it all the worthwhile.
but as I said it's one of those things that I can only attest to myself and it was only part of thing that helped me.
I've heard of Natalie via Vice News and appreciate what she's does, but I literally never watched one of these videos before now. I was annoyed at first with the typical YouTube editing, but once it gets to the point it's pretty compelling. Guess I need to watch the other videos.
As someone who was definitely a damaged boi when I was a teenager, this helped me too. With the caveat that it doesn't have to be traditionally masculine pursuits. That's part of what we're trying to escape, I think. Maybe you like painting landscapes, or making your own clothes, or dancing, or theatre, or gardening. For me, it was music. But I think anyone and everyone can and should try to create/build something, whatever is meaningful to you.
Yup. That's basically it. Like her, I have no idea how to solve this. Toxic masculinity is the problem but we don't really have a good solution, on an individual or societal level. Just being aware of it doesn't solve anything, and in my experience, that additional awareness can actually make things worse and compound existing feelings of weakness. We need to come up with some way to fix this, as more people will keep on dying until we do, whether it's by suicide, overdose, or murder
Men 100% need to learn to be better friends and models for *each other* but yeah, that's really fucking hard because it breaks with so much established social norms that you specifically need to set up a space especially made for positive male reinforcement. And most men don't look for that!
Eh, I don't think that's really the audience I'd be worried about with this video.
That is the Perfect Pun. It is on topic, relevant, and causes an almost physical pain. Bravo!
I like the video overall but when Natalie talks about the lack of a new, positive ideal of manhood... I think that's something I hear feminists talk about more and more often these days, and I don't know that I see it as something feminism fails to address?
I'm a bit sleepy and have taken a lot of painkillers this week as I'm recovering from a surgery but I read usuals as urinals, and that is my new name for 'em.
The half joking competitive nature of male socialization she mentions, is probably the biggest reason I'm not so relatively attached to male identity. It's tiresome. Constantly competing to prove "manliness" chops... I'd rather not
That was on (contra)point.
I think that the rise of superheroes in mainstream culture is an excellent example of the direction non-toxic male identity is going though. I don't have any difficulty identifying as a "proud" male with role models like Terry Crewes and Steve Rogers. I understand (and as a teen, fell into) the male identity crisis, but I don't think we need a social movement to solve the issue; just more guys standing up and being non-toxic advertisements for positive maleness.
I grew up in the 90s, and I don't remember a time when old school toxic masculinity was considered particularly cool on a cultural level. All the media I watched growing up showed entitled jocks as toxic scumbag stereotypes; all violent and rapey and the obvious bad guys. I can't imagine being one of those violent, rapey guys, because I've been shown how utterly detestable they are to people of all genders.
I think the issue is more one of desperation. Some guys aren't that smart, but feel entitled to the attention of women (or just to be seen), and they want to know why they're consistently ignored. The only thing that needs to change is the erosion of that entitlement, and the cultivation of humility. Being not-bad isn't enough to make you exceptional, and no one owes you their time or attention. You have to improve in all ways, just like people of other genders do, and become the best version of yourself that you can be.
I think that the rise of superheroes in mainstream culture is an excellent example of the direction non-toxic male identity is going though. I don't have any difficulty identifying as a "proud" male with role models like Terry Crewes and Steve Rogers. I understand (and as a teen, fell into) the male identity crisis, but I don't think we need a social movement to solve the issue; just more guys standing up and being non-toxic advertisements for positive maleness.
I grew up in the 90s, and I don't remember a time when old school toxic masculinity was considered particularly cool on a cultural level. All the media I watched growing up showed entitled jocks as toxic scumbag stereotypes; all violent and rapey and the obvious bad guys. I can't imagine being one of those violent, rapey guys, because I've been shown how utterly detestable they are to people of all genders.
I think the issue is more one of desperation. Some guys aren't that smart, but feel entitled to the attention of women (or just to be seen), and they want to know why they're consistently ignored. The only thing that needs to change is the erosion of that entitlement, and the cultivation of humility. Being not-bad isn't enough to make you exceptional, and no one owes you their time or attention. You have to improve in all ways, just like people of other genders do, and become the best version of yourself that you can be.
Cool, i just checked her channel for a new video yesterday and ended up rewatching some of her old stuff.
The only thing I slightly disagree with when it comes to male competition and individualization is that it can and is separated entirely from toxic masculity and it CAN be a positive force for men. For me and other friends when you are constantly butting heads and trying to one up each other, self improvement comes far more naturally and you just try to do better, while your friend or friends see this improvement and try to do better as well. And as an introvert I genuinely don't see what's the issue if everyone in a social group keeps to themselves every once and a while and just is, like when individualization is brought up as a negative I hate it. Like there is this group mentality and that when you belong in a social group you all have to meld together, and that honestly has never happened to me and I hope it never does. Unfortunately all that I mentjoned means fuck all because most guys do the exact opposite of what I said as an example, and instead of nudging them closer to this there is far too much push and pull bunkering them down to the mentality that leads to toxic masculinity.
Watched this last night and I found myself nodding and laughing in agreement as she touched on things that I've been aware of and experienced for 20 some odd years now. She just did a much better job at articulating and getting to the core of some the issues. Especially the parts of being acutely aware that I'm perceived as a threat as default, and - to a degree - seen as disposable.
Then what are some new positive ideals of manhood that feminism has brought forward? I mean, we recently had a thread about a survey that men won't use reusable grocery bags because it makes them look 'gay'.
General question about Contrapoints: while I've seen portions of her videos, this is the first I've watched from start to finish and I got the sense that she has a lot of inside/running gags (the sound that's played when she says 'my boys'; hihowareyou, etc), is that an accurate read?
Then what are some new positive ideals of manhood that feminism has brought forward? I mean, we recently had a thread about a survey that men won't use reusable grocery bags because it makes them look 'gay'.
General question about Contrapoints: while I've seen portions of her videos, this is the first I've watched from start to finish and I got the sense that she has a lot of inside/running gags (the sound that's played when she says 'my boys'; hihowareyou, etc), is that an accurate read?
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Thing is though, that in painting "the jocks" as the jerks - and by omission, the only way a jerk would look and behave like - it created this huge blindspot with nerds, who everyone sorta understood as the polar opposite of the jerk jocks (which also then assumed that they were equally different inside, emotionally).
I think a big component of what later exploded as gamergate was this completely unreflected dynamic, where there was one type of toxic masculinity, and it was the jock/bully/mainstream-dudebro. It allowed the slightly more subversive toxicity among nerds - of "the nice guy" - to really grow and fester, and which (I think) fueled much of the incel-movement as well.
After all, they weren't the jock from tv. They were the nice guys, who always treated girls with respect. But did they ever repay that extraordinary grace? No. Never. They wanted the jocks that they said they hated, because that's what all women are like. Ungrateful.
(I was going to write more standard repressed nerd-shit but it's honestly genuinely bumming me out to even slip into that mindset for just a moment).
Basically, by honing in on just one manifestation of toxicity, we kinda - as a culture, really - assumed there couldn't be any other type of manifestation.
Culture-critique in the 90's was mostly centered around consumerism, so it kinda made sense that it didn't really rear its ugly head until just a few years ago in a "woah, wow, how could we have not seen this?" kind of way when Gamergate exploded, seemingly out of nowhere, and for the most (at least as stated) disproportionate reasons.
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