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excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
They aren't the same. They both just strike me as an obsessive exercise of hunting-down of some particular quibble (a plothole or a trope). They are more concerned with finding examples than doing the more difficult work of analysis. It's easier just to say "Here's an occurrence of a thing that I have predetermined to be bad" rather than taking a harder longer look at the dynamics of an individual work.

For a lot of people, criticism now is either plot-nitpicking or hunting for tropes/cliches. The more of these problematic elements you can find, the worse something is.

Anita absolutely lays out why the trends she sees are an issue.

Anita is a cultural analyst not a reviewer, I don't know why you keep expecting her to go in detail on one game, or why she doesn't is somehow your main reason to dismiss what she does. She's looking at gaming broadly in order to do core feminist 101 analysis that is of a level that the average lay person could understand it without needing any further information or education.

That gamers lost their fucking mind at that speaks to the abject immaturity of the industry
 

Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,567
Comparing Tropes vs. Women in Video Games to CinemaSins is bizarre to me. One shined a light on sexist bullshit within games as a whole for people who otherwise took for granted this is just how games are, while the other tries to problematize the most trivial nonsense for the purpose of squeezing out a constant stream of algorithm-friendly content.

"Anita didn't deeply engage with each individual example" isn't a compelling point when, one, the series was an attempt to grapple with video game culture at large and, two, it's undeniable she was touching on a real and widespread issue. It requires zero nitpicking or obsessiveness to find examples of games defaulting to a sexist paradigm regarding how their non-male characters are treated.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,270
The best argument against the claim wouldn't be aimed at Anita specifically but that probably that games as a medium are commodities and not art. I spent a lot of time in my 20s keyboard arguing that games were art but I don't know that I believe that anymore.

Not trying to detail the thread on "are games art" lol

I sympathize with this perspective a lot because definitely when I was in my teens and early twenties I was incredibly over-defensive on the "games are art! games are serious! stop saying games are just products, they're so much more than that!" and now that I'm in my late twenties I actually look back on that attitude, the constant insistence on the maturity of the hobby, as probably the most immature thing I could've been saying about them. Like, yeah, after seeing the evolution of the industry over the last generation and ahalf, games are definitely mostly just focused group tested, factory assembled products for our amusement. And with everything else going on in our politics in the world right now, I'm pretty much fine with just conceding "yeah they're mostly just dumb toys, who cares."
 

bulbasort

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
383
Yeah, having Buck Angel on as a guest is really indefensible, especially after she's already been bad regarding nonbinary people.

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EG4b44MXkAA_ryg
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,527
For the curious, Buck Angel says 25 words as part of a John Waters quote that's on screen for 15 seconds of a 50 minute video and doesn't actually appear in person.
Angels' participation doesn't mar the larger point made about the uniquely American view on class, taste and race.
 

Deleted member 3294

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,973
For the curious, Buck Angel says 25 words as part of a John Waters quote that's on screen for 15 seconds of a 50 minute video and doesn't actually appear in person.
Angels' participation doesn't mar the larger point made about the uniquely American view on class, taste and race.
The amount he pops up in the video isn't the problem, the problem is he pops up in it at all.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,527
Sorry about that, I've seen his appearance being basically a cameo be used as a defense.
Nothing about this should read as a defense of Angel's clearly shitty tweets.

But everyone has a different line they draw on whether or not they can enjoy and discuss a piece of art (in this case, the new ContraPoints video) and so far most of the accounts of Angel's participation sounded like they came from people who didn't watch the video and it's a disservice to each person's preferences to not represent it as accurately as possible.
 

Deleted member 3294

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,973
Nothing about this should read as a defense of Angel's clearly shitty tweets.

But everyone has a different line they draw on whether or not they can enjoy and discuss a piece of art (in this case, the new ContraPoints video) and so far most of the accounts of Angel's participation sounded like they came from people who didn't watch the video and it's a disservice to each person's preferences to not represent it as accurately as possible.
I mean, then my original reply still stands lol. What matters is that Contrapoints was glad to have a shitstain like him appear in her video at all.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,927
Bluegh. What is she doing.
this was her attempted reply sent only to Patreon backers:

As those of you who pay attention to social media have probably noticed, I'm at the center of another controversy, this time about my inclusion of Buck Angel as a voiceover actor in "Opulence." Buck is a well-known trans activist who has expressed support for transmedicalism (the idea that you have to have dysphoria to be legitimately trans). Some people have taken my association with him as evidence that I am secretly a transmedicalist, and a large part of the trans community on Twitter is upset with me because of it.
I want to let you all know, first of all, that I am not a transmedicalist, I have never been a transmedicalist, and I will never be a transmedicalist. I included Buck as a voice actor in my last video for other reasons, which I will discuss at length in my next video.
Thank you so much to those of you who have given me the benefit of the doubt throughout all this.
 

cormano91939

Banned
Sep 4, 2019
86
User Banned (Permanent): Transphobia, recent related severe infraction
TheDistributist, who Contrapoints had a debate with way back, just made a very good series that I hope Contrapoints responds to.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,707
They aren't the same. They both just strike me as an obsessive exercise of hunting-down of some particular quibble (a plothole or a trope). They are more concerned with finding examples than doing the more difficult work of analysis. It's easier just to say "Here's an occurrence of a thing that I have predetermined to be bad" rather than taking a harder longer look at the dynamics of an individual work.
This is a rather large misunderstanding of what the purpose of Anita's work is.

You're correct in your observation that Anita sets out to collect and reference hundreds of small examples rather than diving deep into individual ones, but her purpose in that is to illustrate not that any one individual work did things particularly badly but that the tropes she's examining is signfiicantly wide spread. In other words, she's trying to illustrate just how wide spread the problem is, how many different works across both time and space rely on a given trope. And while she never dives deeply into it, the collection of examples she references tend to depict subtle differences in the different ways a trope can manifest, so it's not like she's just spending the screentime saying the same thing over and over. That, with the history of the trope, is meant to be something of a crash course done for the purposes of explaining why it's bad.

In contrast, the first thing I need to do is point out that Cinemasins actually DOES go into the nitty gritty of individual works. Every one of their videos is dedicated not to a genre or industry, but to specific movies, going in a checklist of all their supposed plotholes. So, already this is a false equivalence as Anita is trying to criticize what amount to cultural norms in storytelling across the medium while every cinemasins is concerned with whatever individual movie they're hypothetically criticizing, and that movie alone.

More importantly however, whereas Anita uses these examples to comprehensively discuss a trope in regards to it's history, it's variations, and how it is harmful, cinemasins doesn't really have a greater purpose to their video other than I guess trying to be funny while sometimes making a point, which it rarely does either. And Cinemasins is also bad too. Like, even if all you want is to nitpick movie, they can't be trusted to even do that, because more than half of the sins they spot are either false positives, wrong, or even just nonsensical. That's one thing I feel people miss a lot on cinemasins because plot nitpicking has been villified so much, that they fail even at their one basic job.

I will agree that Anita's work doesn't dive terribly deeply into more complex feminism topics (though one would ask why it's implied that it should - after all, it's deliberately made to be an introductional and educational feminism 101 type video that is easily accessible and understandable to almost all grade levels.), but that's in no way a meaningful equivalence to the garbage Cinemasins does.
 
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Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
this was her attempted reply sent only to Patreon backers:
I'm a big fan of Natalie but after the recent controversies, her reactions and this defense, I'm really starting to worry that my faith in her has been misguided.

That defence is really poor and feels like someone using the situation to promote her work instead of just giving some justification. The fact it was to her patreons only especially raises an eyebrow from me as it feels like getting the hardcore fans on side so they are ready to defend her when she releases her video and potentially doesn't do a good enough job.

We shall see of course but if you keep doing shitty things and have to keep digging yourself out, after a while it just doesn't look good.
 

Deleted member 18857

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
TheDistributist, who Contrapoints had a debate with way back, just made a very good series that I hope Contrapoints responds to.
I survived 20 minutes through that video, it's painful to watch. I'm still not sure what the guy criticizes in Contrapoints video. Not being subtle? Not having new ideas and simply making existing ideas easier to organise? Painting in broad strokes?
Seriously, structure is important. And I'm not going to touch all the nauseous undertones of some of the wording this guy uses.
 

cormano91939

Banned
Sep 4, 2019
86
I survived 20 minutes through that video, it's painful to watch. I'm still not sure what the guy criticizes in Contrapoints video. Not being subtle? Not having new ideas and simply making existing ideas easier to organise? Painting in broad strokes?
Seriously, structure is important. And I'm not going to touch all the nauseous undertones of some of the wording this guy uses.

I am going to give it a second watch before I form my own conclusions, but a fascinating thread that I would like to explore further is that the videos contain subtle "meta" commentary that superficial viewings could miss.

Wow! It's amazing how much you can lie in one post! He's as alt-right as Trump is.

I would be offended if this was not so untrue as to be more baffling than offensive. I mean, if you define "alt-right" as "ethno-nationalist," you're just plain wrong. Anyone familiar with the channel would know that.
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
I am going to give it a second watch before I form my own conclusions, but a fascinating thread that I would like to explore further is that the videos contain subtle "meta" commentary that superficial viewings could miss.



I would be offended if this was not so untrue as to be more baffling than offensive. I mean, if you define "alt-right" as "ethno-nationalist," you're just plain wrong. Anyone familiar with the channel would know that.
So who's alt are you? Or is this just another burner account? I would think you could do better than straight up linking to alt-right shit. You just gave the game away just like that.
 

Windrunner

Sly
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,500
But once you recognize the secret reason for her featuring of Buck Angel, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
I would be offended if this was not so untrue as to be more baffling than offensive. I mean, if you define "alt-right" as "ethno-nationalist," you're just plain wrong. Anyone familiar with the channel would know that.

Calling "ethno-nationalism" as anything other then rebranded alt-right ideas means you support bigotry.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
"Here's a video that you should watch but I won't say why and also I need to watch it again before I form an opinion on it" is a very special kind of transparent
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,707
So I guess you're just doubling down, then? Strange thing, to have someone ignore you repeatedly. Oh well.
Okay then. I'll bite. Paraphrase the video's argument then. The other poster who watched 20 minutes of it can't seem to pin point TheDistributist's argument even though they watched half of it.

One of the best litmus tests for alt-righters I've found is asking people to simply convey their understanding of what a video's argument is by themselves. With leftist videoes, the arguments can get complex, but there is a coherent core they are arguing for, against or simply explaining. I can easily explain what Contrapoint's titular Opulence video is about - how we use rich aesthetic without necessarily being rich as a means of making ourselves look valuable, which people react to in different ways depending on how it's presented.

Alt-right videos don't really do this, they tend to try and go for emotional override, which means that when it comes time to actually discuss, the points their videos made kind of slide off the minds of even people who agree with them. This is because isn't anything to them in terms of logic or rhetoric, it's just pure affect. That's exactly the reaction Iggy was displaying. That's the biggest red flag that everyone is suspicious of.

So the balls in your court then. Sell me on the argument TheDistributist was making with your own words.
 
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Kraid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,269
Cuck Zone
this was her attempted reply sent only to Patreon backers:
lol. Come on. I didn't think that featuring Buck Angel made her a "transmedicalist." I just think it's pretty fucking shitty that she platformed truscum like Buck at all. Also: she doesn't address Buck outing Lana at all here.

If you need a whole video to explain why you had to pick this particular asshole to do 15 seconds of voice over work perhaps find just about anyone else?
 

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,462
San Francisco
I have the opposite arrangement, haha. I am practically a neo-reactionary by US standards, but my parents are staunch Democrats. We agree on social issues, and even though I tell them that the Democratic party would look askance at them for those views, they still see the party as it was in the 90s. I have not discussed this topic with them recently, though, and I am curious what their thoughts are after seeing the Democratic primary debates.
I am going to give it a second watch before I form my own conclusions, but a fascinating thread that I would like to explore further is that the videos contain subtle "meta" commentary that superficial viewings could miss.



I would be offended if this was not so untrue as to be more baffling than offensive. I mean, if you define "alt-right" as "ethno-nationalist," you're just plain wrong. Anyone familiar with the channel would know that.

Are you TheDistributist? Because that video only has 4k views and you seem to be a strong reactionary just like the person narrating that video...

Edit: NVM permaban means I may never know....
 

Deleted member 18857

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
One of the best litmus tests for alt-righters I've found is asking people to simply convey their understanding of what a video's argument is by themselves. With leftist videoes, the arguments can get complex, but there is a coherent core they are arguing for, against or simply explaining. I can easily explain what Contrapoint's titular Opulence video is about - how we use rich aesthetic without necessarily being rich as a means of making ourselves look valuable, which people react to in different ways depending on how it's presented.

Alt-right videos don't really do this, they tend to try and go for emotional override, which means that when it comes time to actually discuss, the points their videos made kind of slide off the minds of even people who agree with them. This is because isn't anything to them in terms of logic or rhetoric, it's just pure affect.
Oh. That seems to make sense.
My main annoyance with that video was that because of the lack of structure, it seems that the guy was going through minor annoyances he has with ContraPoints (all the while using the "they" pronoun to refer to her, which, ergh) but building up to something that would, I suppose, be the main, critical weakness of the channel that would retroactively frame everything in a broader context.
The problem is that if you do that for 50 minutes, it's not a good structure. You're just rambling and rambling, and the "gotcha" moment can only be disappointing and frustrating. So yeah, ContraPoints is not subtle, explains existing ideas over creating new concepts, and yeah, doesn't paint her opponents in a positive daylight. Oh, and also makes a ton of money because she understand the Youtube game. These are the main criticisms I have gathered out of the first 20 minutes. It's like complaining that TierZoo is not very accurate and is a bad scientific channel because it uses video game memes as ways of explanations.

It's OK to dislike the form of ContraPoint's videos. You can dislike burlesque, it's your right. But implying that Nathalie would somewhat try to hide or erase her past videos when she presented as male is not bad faith, it's just a lie.
Ah, and there's also a foul moment where the author somewhat implies that "it's so convenient that she starts her transition just when it would be more bankable for her career".
So, yeah. That thing is garbage.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,707
Oh. That seems to make sense.
My main annoyance with that video was that because of the lack of structure, it seems that the guy was going through minor annoyances he has with ContraPoints (all the while using the "they" pronoun to refer to her, which, ergh) but building up to something that would, I suppose, be the main, critical weakness of the channel that would retroactively frame everything in a broader context.
The problem is that if you do that for 50 minutes, it's not a good structure. You're just rambling and rambling, and the "gotcha" moment can only be disappointing and frustrating. So yeah, ContraPoints is not subtle, explains existing ideas over creating new concepts, and yeah, doesn't paint her opponents in a positive daylight. Oh, and also makes a ton of money because she understand the Youtube game. These are the main criticisms I have gathered out of the first 20 minutes. It's like complaining that TierZoo is not very accurate and is a bad scientific channel because it uses video game memes as ways of explanations.

It's OK to dislike the form of ContraPoint's videos. You can dislike burlesque, it's your right. But implying that Nathalie would somewhat try to hide or erase her past videos when she presented as male is not bad faith, it's just a lie.
Ah, and there's also a foul moment where the author somewhat implies that "it's so convenient that she starts her transition just when it would be more bankable for her career".
So, yeah. That thing is garbage.
Yup, that's pretty textbook alt-right. It's a trick that goes back all the way to the era of thunderfoot videos talking about Anita Sarkeesian.

Recommending videoes to watch is perfectly fine, it can make for both entertaining and educational content, but if it ever happens in a debate, simply ask the person recommending the video to outline the basic points the video makes before you watch or respond to anything else. You will save hours of typing at brick wall.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,220
I've always found that that best way to understand the true message of a ContraPoints video is to skip to the credits and find something to dislike about one of the guest stars.
I'm glad someone did. Personally I'd rather just skip it when Buck Angel is out there gleeful at his involvement in it. Size of his segment is inconsequential when it's evident he's happy to use it to promote himself. Not a particularly hard pass considering the proximity to the last fiasco.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
I'm glad someone did. Personally I'd rather just skip it when Buck Angel is out there gleeful at his involvement in it. Size of his segment is inconsequential when it's evident he's happy to use it to promote himself. Not a particularly hard pass considering the proximity to the last fiasco.

Yeah if she has something to say about her decision to include such an odious figure as he is, she ought to come out and say it.
 

mescalineeyes

Banned
May 12, 2018
4,444
Vienna
People desperately trying to somehow cancel Natalie is honestly becoming pretty off putting.
if you can't give her the benefit of the doubt then who?
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
People desperately trying to somehow cancel Natalie is honestly becoming pretty off putting.
if you can't give her the benefit of the doubt then who?

In what way has she earned the benefit of the doubt after everything she's said about nonbinary people? And now she's giving a platform to transmedicalists, in which we'll only truly understand why when we watch her next video?
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
calus.0.png


GROW FAT FROM STRENGTH!!!

Good video. Interesting part about gothic taking on post modern critics in the near future.
 

sprsk

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,452
In what way has she earned the benefit of the doubt after everything she's said about nonbinary people? And now she's giving a platform to transmedicalists, in which we'll only truly understand why when we watch her next video?

Because her whole thing is that she gives extremely well thought out content. So if she says she has reasons, why not wait for her to explain herself?
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
People desperately trying to somehow cancel Natalie is honestly becoming pretty off putting.
if you can't give her the benefit of the doubt then who?
I gave her the benefit of the doubt with the NB stuff related to "The Aesthetic". Then the Twitter thing happened. Then this Buck Angel thing happened. The benefit has diminishing returns.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Because her whole thing is that she gives extremely well thought out content. So if she says she has reasons, why not wait for her to explain herself?

Her content has in the past literally had problematic aspects to it that downplay nonbinary experiences, and she's reiterated how she feels about this on Twitter in situations like this :

contra2.jpg


Her explanation that there will be an explanation in her next video was behind a paywall for her patreons, and requires you to continue to contribute to her income as well. This isn't the first time that she's done something like this. At a certain point, people are going to have accept that she is perfectly capable of being problematic in her own ways