Contrapoints - Opulence

[Deleted member 48897]

When someone's primary job is built around skill at finding, digesting, and communicating ideas to the public, I don't think they deserve continued benefit of the doubt over what they actually meant when they seem to perpetuate abhorrent views through their words and actions. Either they are bad at their job and should stop, or they are aware of what they are doing and are engaging it in consciously.

 

[stupei]

Shit like this has always existed in the LGBT community. First was bisexuals, now it's trans folks and it seems like increasingly that our non-binary Pals are next on The Chopping Block.

As for why? Some people just generally shitty, always looking to blame some sort of other, no matter what group they belong to.

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Like I said, it's respectability politics. Same reason every minority group that was ever Othered in America turns around and gives it to the next one. People want desperately to be accepted and as soon as they think it's actually possible, it's almost in their grasp, there's nothing they hate more than the people they perceive as confusing things enough that the mainstream might turn their backs again. Got to kick them out yourself, got to cut them away by force, so the straights know you were on their side all along.

"My identity is easily digestible and likable, so you don't have to fear me like those Others" means you have to have the Other.

 

[Deleted member 48828]

Non binary people deserve so, so much better. Their pain should not be monetized by an ally. They shouldn't be stereotyped as an altright hate mob when there has been FAR more decent, civil critique than abuse in the public sphere.

Im honestly incredibly disappointed that people I thought could intelligently navigate this issue, like Lindsay and especially Kat Blaque, have essentially shown they don't give a shit about the safety of nonbinary lives through the irresponsible, ignorant responses they've given. It shocks me that people who should know that we NEED to hold Allys to a higher standard are tripping over themselves to make it about how upset they are that anyone (apparently) wants a comment on how they feel about being featured alongside truscum.

The focus of this should be NBs, the only people who actually have something to lose in this shit. Not contrapoints new video. Not PTs new video. Not Lindsay 's warped views on twitter discourse.

There's been a disturbing amount of anti-NB sentiment stirred up throughout the internet because of this and Contrapoints seriously needs to apologize for the harm shes caused as soon as possible before it gets worse.

 

[Kyuuji]

Ok sis, you accuse me of dismissing trans folx while having a discussion? repeatedly even, wow ok.

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Having a discussion isn't:

• Telling trans people there's nothing to discuss
• Telling trans people that their issues aren't being eclipsed
• When I actually take the time to answer your question you make it about how you're being treated
• Then gaslight and claim they're putting words in your mouth

So, no. Don't start to deny that shit. That's what you've done in this thread.

The one thing I'm thankful for is the discussion going from the concerns of trans and non-binary people to the difficulty prominent Youtubers face when they or someone they know fucks up and what they're going through.

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Well Theryn apologized, so out of Natalie saying something we dont have much else to discuss. We can only guess at reasons of why she didn't say anything yet.

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Not sure why you think you get to determine that after the entire thread has been swarmed with concern for youtube personalities. That you focus on Natalie in response to that post of all posts is like, come the fuck on. I edited it in case it really wasn't clear on first read:

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Well my focus on Natalie is because she is the cause of the controversy, so we should focus on why she did what she did. In no way that takes the focus of how non-binary people have felt, in fact only redirects it to the actual issue.
Besides by involving people like Lindsay and the rest of breadtube in the controversy, you inherently dilude the discussion considering they had no call in the primary controversy anyway. I think we both agree tot he same points but them fighting words I guess haha

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Then this:

Wait you are equating a lot of different things I said, taking words out of context and say them back to me like this, it's like you are not even reading what I'm writing. I get that you are tired, but eh fuck discussing with rhetoric like this. If you are going to ignore the whole post and just pick up the parts you want, I have nothing more to discuss here.

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This was your post:

But what kind of discussion do you even want to have about the community affected when it's a consensus among us? I would hope that there is no doubt here about how valid and important the concerns are, so it's no surprise the discussion moves to different facets of the controversy.
Like what exactly are we even discussing here?

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What exactly am I ignoring in that post, where you're asking me what there is to discuss when I literally tell you:

Engage the community affected to better understand why it's an issue. The more that's discussed the more validity and context is given to the criticisms to those reading. Where the focus is on the personalities and how they feel it equates criticism to something mean or harsh. There's immediately more worry over the person who caused the harm than those harmed - so how could it have been that bad? Almost the entire thread to any cis people taking a casual interest is positioned as mean angry NB people harassing YouTube personalities, with copious amounts of downplaying or minimising the actions she took and the fact they're only links in a chain on this topic.

You yourself, when directly told that issues are being blunted and dismissed, said that they weren't. Said that there wasn't anything to discuss, that we must consider Natalie truscum if we're not willing to diminish the responsibility in her action. We get this attitude every time it happens, every thread. Each time it's how we should go easy on her because of this, or how she actually meant that. That we should give her the benefit of the doubt, to think about how she must feel, that she's just growing.

Fuck that.

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Except you can't handle being told that you've been dismissive, so in turn decide to ignore the actual response to the question in favour of playing the victim and making up some nonsense about me ignoring the whole post.

 

[Maximo]

Really you can tell alot about someone depending on how they react to being called out for saying something harmful to others, I generally try to sit and listen when it comes to LGBT/minority issues and take in to what concerns they are telling me because as a emphatic person I want to understand and often its best to listen rather then downplay them. It doesn't require much to simply listen to what they have to say and often it doesn't require you to voice your own opinions about the topic especially if you are uneducated about the matter or have ignorantly said something.

Contra has now a few times has said some extremely questionable things about non binary people and with the recent video its not a good look...alittle amazed at the comments made by some I really love, I understand hundreds or even thousands of people throwing their opinion at you about something you said can be overwhelming but feels like the responses made by Nat and others could have come from a more empathetic place and not give some half half response.

 

[Landford]

Really you can tell alot about someone depending on how they react to being called out for saying something harmful to others, I generally try to sit and listen when it comes to LGBT/minority issues and take in to what concerns they are telling me because as a emphatic person I want to understand and often its best to listen rather then downplay them. It doesn't require much to simply listen to what they have to say and often it doesn't require you to voice your own opinions about the topic especially if you are uneducated about the matter or have ignorantly said something.

Contra has now a few times has said some extremely questionable things about non binary people and with the recent video its not a good look...alittle amazed at the comments made by some I really love, I understand hundreds or even thousands of people throwing their opinion at you about something you said can be overwhelming but feels like the responses made by Nat and others could have come from a more empathetic place and not give some half half response.

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Jury is still out about what Natalies response will be (If she do respond), but while I agreed with Lindsay initial response (About the people asking her to speak out about Natalie), her recent like on that tweet about the non binary people concern being the same as Gamergate was a incredibly bad look. Like, how can you even compare those things.

 

[25th Baam]

Having a discussion isn't:

• Telling trans people there's nothing to discuss
• Telling trans people that their issue isn't being eclipsed
• When I actually take the time to answer your question you make it about how you're being treated
• Then gaslight and claim they're putting words in your mouth

So, no. Don't start to deny that shit. That's what you've done in this thread.

Then this:


This was your post:

What exactly am I ignoring in that post, where you're asking me what there is to discuss when I literally tell you:

Except you can't handle being told that you've been dismissive, so in turn decide to ignore the actual response to the question in favour of playing the victim and making up some nonsense about me ignoring the whole post.

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The reason I said that outside of natalie's comments we dont have much else to discuss, is that I consider the concept of discussing about how trans people feel completely out of my field. But I'm sorry if that made me dismiss what you were trying to point out.

 

[Deleted member 31817]

Hadn't watched the video at all but saw just earlier today on insta that she signal boosted a truscum and now I see why the thread is still going. :/

Always funny when minorities don't accept other minorities.

 

[mbpm]

This has been strange and disappointing from a lot of youtubers.
Celebrities, I guess you can't trust em for much.

I'd heard only about that weird joke Contra did about reptilians but this is worse.

 

[Kyuuji]

Jury is still out about what Natalies response will be (If she do respond), but while I agreed with Lindsay initial response (About the people asking her to speak out about Natalie), her recent like on that tweet about the non binary people concern being the same as Gamergate was a incredibly bad look. Like, how can you even compare those things.

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It's made a lot easier for people when the concern is primarily placed upon the personalities and how the criticism has affected them, over the community that's been burned by their actions. This isn't a vacuum and it's why it's frustrating when the rhetoric is so pervasive. The immediate jumping to deflect the criticism focus almost solely on the cluster provoking harassment over the initial broader issue and sentiment, painting it as being overblown, reactionary.

It all contributes to people being able to tuck it under the *gasp* outrage moniker. When you're at that stage it's not hard to distort and manipulate it into rabid mob vs. personalities being attacked and align it to your own shitty agenda.

People have overwhelmingly cared more for the feelings of youtube personalities in this thread than those of non-binary or trans people. How would it not come across as them being attacked unfairly to the casual observer.

 

[Landford]

It's made a lot easier for people when the concern is primarily placed upon the personalities and how the criticism has affected them, over the community that's been burned by their actions. This isn't a vacuum and it's why it's frustrating when the rhetoric is so pervasive. The immediate jumping to deflect the criticism and to focus almost solely on the cluster provoking harassment over the broader issue and sentiment, painting it as being overblown, reactionary.

It all contributes to people being able to tuck it under the *gasp* outrage moniker. When you're at that stage it's not hard to distort and manipulate it into rabid mob vs. personalities being attacked.

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When people resort to these kind of comparisons, 9 times out of 10 is that they either dont understand what is being argued about, or are actively trying to paint the complaints as something other than what they really are. This is literally like calling someone's actions "Just like Hitler".

 

[Kyuuji]

When people resort to these kind of comparisons, 9 times out of 10 is that they either dont understand what is being argued about, or are actively trying to paint the complaints as something other than what they really are. This is literally like calling someone's actions "Just like Hitler".

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Yes..

The more I read this thread, the more I believe people are using wathever they can to paint Points in what negative Light that they can.

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Like I said, there's a correlation between the sentiments exhibited in this thread and how people are able to form such distorted views.

 

[Deleted member 48897]

This issue is equivalent to a bunch of white boys being upset over videogames because nonbinary people are also used to having their needs addressed and their safety prioritized over others, as can be seen in this very thread.

 

[Tezz]

Gamergate 2.0. That Khaled person's drawing of parallels is like a reckless application of Godwin's law.
Like, "Both gaters and NBs are calling it 'criticism'."
Cool. Amazing analysis. These are definitely the exact same scenarios.

 

[Nappuccino]

It's really frustrating that someone who is a major voice for the trans community has such glaring blind spots and seems unable to stop falling into them.

I also think the GG comparisons are toxic and unhelpful. There may be some opportunistic voices in the criticism, but their presence shouldn't override the real pain experienced by NBs who just want to be recognized as not a threat.

 

[Deleted member 31817]

It's really frustrating that someone who is a major voice for the trans community has such glaring blind spots and seems unable to stop falling into them.

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Wait a month for her next monetized video to see why signal boosting a truscum will make you ashamed of your words and deeds.

 

[Landford]

Yes..

Like I said, there's a correlation between the sentiments exhibited in this thread and how people are able to form such distorted views.

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I am glad that we agree on this.

Gamergate 2.0. That Khaled person's drawing of parallels is like a reckless application of Godwin's law.
Like, "Both gaters and NBs are calling it 'criticism'."
Cool. Amazing analysis. These are definitely the exact same scenarios.

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Its so incredibly stupid that I cant really come around as to why this person is doing this other than really bad faith (Not even as "Dismissing BN people" bad, but "Let me see how I can profit from this). Cynical as fuck.

 

[OniLinkPlus]

So er... Enby and trans friends, how're y'all feeling?

Sorry if it sounds awkward saying this, but I've ranted enough about the people at the center of the controversy at this point, instead of focusing on the victims. It's only fair that I/we should listen to both NBs and trans people who're already in here participating, and those who want to participate but don't feel safe doing it. So, again: how are you feeling?

aka "this is now an NB/trans appreciation & listening thread"

(I don't know any enbies IRL, I'll confess, but of the few enby personalities I know, ThoughtSlime is by far my favorite. Big lovable goofball. Quite smart, too.)

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I'm late on this I feel but I'll toss in my voice. I used to love Natalie's content, but when The Aesthetic came out I was hurt. A lot. It's been a long time since I've seen it but it very much felt at the time like she was saying either that "trans people need to try to pass in order to be valid" or "the reality is that people won't see us as valid unless we try to pass so we should give it". I hate both of those takes. She reenforced that with her Twitter thread she postly shortly after, which got her in a lot of trouble and she then deleted it. I stopped watching her then as it felt like trust had been violated. A lot of what she said in the Twitter thread especially was aimed at "nonbinary people can't be seen as valid by society" and it felt like she was trying to tell us to give up.

Then a few months ago, that awful Twitter thread where she said she hates giving pronouns because it feels othering. Which, I get that, but I have multiple problems with it: not only did she in the thread dismiss nonbinary concerns and put her own passing privilege up as the more important factor, but it again felt like she was saying "give up". "Don't normalize trans and nonbinary people". "Don't normalize the idea that pronouns are not necessarily tied to gender". "Stop fighting for progress". That's basically what it felt like to me.

And then this video. She straight up hired the guy who outed Lana Wachowski and who is a well know truscum. This coming just months after her apology for offending the nonbinary community. That's three strikes against enbies, four if you count the Twitter thread for The Aesthetic as separate from the video. At this point it's a recurring pattern and it feels like everyone is just... Ignoring it.

Every time she does shit, cis people are up in arms to defend her. She is the one trans voice that lefttube listens to and she's using that status to do harm to a large part of the community. It's getting to the point where it feels like breadtube as a whole, in defending her so vehemently despite repeatedly failing to even begin to improve, just does not actually give a shit about nonbinary people. It feels like we're being pushed out and it's very disheartening and frustrating.

If Natalie can improve, I am all for that. So far she has not demonstrated she is willing to, and she's being enabled by her friends who defend her and refuse to call her out.

 

[collige]

Jury is still out about what Natalies response will be (If she do respond), but while I agreed with Lindsay initial response (About the people asking her to speak out about Natalie), her recent like on that tweet about the non binary people concern being the same as Gamergate was a incredibly bad look. Like, how can you even compare those things.

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I would've been more okay with her initial response if it didn't have the whole "how many times does she have to apologize? Apologizing doesn't work!!" bullshit in it. Natalie has to keep apologizing because she keeps fucking up.

 

[Landford]

I would've been more okay with her initial response if it didn't have the whole "how many times does she have to apologize? Apologizing doesn't work!!" bullshit in it. Natalie has to keep apologizing because she keeps fucking up.

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Lindsays take on liking that gamergate tweet was so bad (and added up with a couple grievances I had with her) that it made me come around to this. You are right. Only thing that is left is to see what the person in question, Natalie, will say about this.

 

[Ketkat]

I am involved in this particular controversy because I watched Natalie's videos since the first one. I think she is one of the best youtubers all around. I just dont think what is happening right now "is it, chief". I am going to keep watching it unfold, and say wathever I want about this matter. Even though I think things are not really going well for her "group". (That comparison to NB people criticizing her to GamerGate and the Lindsay like is in incredibly poor taste, for example).

It sucks, because apart from that terrible choice, this video is one of her best.

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That's not how the bolded works..

Just because you watch someone on youtube does not put you on the same level of understanding of these issues as the trans and nonbinary people in this thread.

 

[Landford]

That's not how the bolded works..

Just because you watch someone on youtube does not put you on the same level of understanding of these issues as the trans and nonbinary people in this thread.

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It does because I want to see what happens with her, and to decide wether or not I will keep watching her stuff. I am not here to tell NB people what to feel or do. And if you took the time to read what I write instead of trying to decide if I should speak or not, you would see that I am actually coming around to the idea shes actually doing this in bad faith. Especially after seeing that Lindsey liked that tweet about comparing non binary people concerns to gamergate.

 

[Syril]

I'm feeling kinda tempted to make a "Non-binary creators appreciation thread", but I'm just worried it'll backfire.

 

[Deleted member 82]

I'm feeling kinda tempted to make a "Non-binary creators appreciation thread", but I'm just worried it'll backfire.

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Sounds like a good idea to me, honestly. If only to shill for ThoughtSlime.

 

[Landford]

I'm feeling kinda tempted to make a "Non-binary creators appreciation thread", but I'm just worried it'll backfire.

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I dont see how that is a bad idea. You should just do it.

 

[Tezz]

Oh my god. They published some kind of piece on "Breadgate" to Medium.

If Gamergate's instigative battlecry was a qualm with "ethics in video game journalism", this one seems to be more along the lines of "ContraPoints is bad, and anyone who associates with her is also bad." Concerns about her treatment of non-binary people, or the inclusion of controversial trans activist Buck Angel in her latest video seem almost secondary — if you closely read the feeds of those most devoted to the cause of BreadTube's downfall, they'll openly admit that no solution is exhaustive enough to satisfy their needs. The outrage against ContraPoints is used as but a mere vessel to channel a greater anger over BreadTube's reticence to represent the most fringe parts of the political left online, despite being pandered to.

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The part about closely reading the feeds just links to a twitter search of the term breadtube, filled with people rightly upset by Natalie and the poor responses of other leftist YouTubers.

 

[Ketkat]

It does because I want to see what happens with her, and to decide wether or not I will keep watching her stuff. I am not here to tell NB people what to feel or do. And if you took the time to read what I write instead of trying to decide if I should speak or not, you would see that I am actually coming around to the idea shes actually doing this in bad faith. Especially after seeing that Lindsey liked that tweet about comparing non binary people concerns to gamergate.

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The issue is that you're putting yourself and your understanding of the issue above everyone else, and not taking the time to actually consider that the people who are directly affected by these issues might have a greater understanding than you. Someone told you that you don't get to sit here and tell us that we're wrong about what affects our community, and you responded with "But, I watch her videos too!" as if that puts you on even footing.

You need to take a step back and consider that you're coming at this from a place of privilege where the greatest consequence to you is that you stop watching someone on youtube, and the greatest consequence to the trans and nonbinary people in this thread is the normalization of bigotry through people like Buck Angel.

There's a large difference between asking questions and trying to understand and trying to tell the people affected that they're wrong and you know more in some way.

I'm feeling kinda tempted to make a "Non-binary creators appreciation thread", but I'm just worried it'll backfire.

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I know this might sound a bit defeatist, but I wouldn't bother putting too much effort into a thread like that. While the content will be great for people to see, threads that are focused on trans or nonbinary issues tend to fall off immediately as there aren't a lot of cis people that are genuinely interested in learning about these issues on the forum.

 

[Nappuccino]

I'm feeling kinda tempted to make a "Non-binary creators appreciation thread", but I'm just worried it'll backfire.

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I honestly wish I knew of more. The only one I know of is Skatunes, but they're not really an essayist. They just make awesome music covers and promote awareness by being theirself on social media, which is hardly the same thing at all.

 

[Kinsei]

Oh my god. They published some kind of piece on "Breadgate" to Medium.



The part about closely reading the feeds just links to a twitter search of the term breadtube, filled with people rightly upset by Natalie and the poor responses of other leftist YouTubers.

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What's even worse is that Lindsay "liked" the article on twitter.

 

[Delphine]

I'm feeling kinda tempted to make a "Non-binary creators appreciation thread", but I'm just worried it'll backfire.

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I've heavily advocated for that since my very first post in this thread, since it's part of the problem why Natalie's fuck ups are so tragically hurtful: the lack of representation. So, please, by all means, you or anyone, feel free to create one and spread the NB love. I'll do my best to monitor it, as well as the rest of the staff, I'm sure of it.

 

[Weltall Zero]

In case you want examples look at the replies.

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For fuck's sake. >_< It's kind of amazing how every single Youtuber on Earth manages to reveal themselves as a bigot at some point in at least some capacity.

I really, really like Natalie's videos so I hope she comes around on this.

 

[crienne]

I honestly wish I knew of more. The only one I know of is Skatunes, but they're not really an essayist. They just make awesome music covers and promote awareness by being theirself on social media, which is hardly the same thing at all.

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Thought Slime is another one.

As a newly-birthed enby (came out earlier this year) I did so because it seemed like the right time due to changing social awareness of us, but then shit like this starts and I'm eye-fucking that closet I came out of cause it feels less-hostile in there.

 

[mael]

I'm feeling kinda tempted to make a "Non-binary creators appreciation thread", but I'm just worried it'll backfire.

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I mean sure, with the current moderation here there's very little chance it would end up as a cesspool.
The bigger the visibility the higher chance there is that nb people will be "considered valid".
Representation matters after all.

Because yall are here I'm gonna use that platform to ask a question and be pelt if I'm being horribly wrong at the same time.
I kinda hate the fact that we use the expression "to identify" instead of "to be", feels like needlessly complicated when at the end of the day someone denying the existence of someone's identity is just very easily known for being a PoS not worth interacting with anyway.
Am I being unreasonable?
I also feel like you english speaking people have it sorta nice because you "only" have to deal with pronouns when in my native binary language it's pretty much in all nouns used and there's still an ongoing debate on the existence of gendered forms of some nouns. Like we're coming from so far away it feels like we'll reach the point english speaking people are in the next 50 years.
</rant>

 

[Ketkat]

I've heavily advocated for that since my very first post in this thread, since it's part of the problem why Natalie's fuck ups are so tragically hurtful: the lack of representation. So, please, by all means, you or anyone, feel free to create one and spread the NB love. I'll do my best to monitor it, as well as the rest of the staff, I'm sure of it.

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We have had countless educational trans threads over the past 2 years since the site went up. it's not necessarily a staff issue, as much as the people who need those threads will never actually open them. And as it is, trans and nonbinary people will have a much better time finding and talking about these issues within trans spaces like discords or twitter where there's less chance of us being talked over/having to go over the basics time and time again, or able to see just how much we're being ignored.

I'm not saying this to mean that someone shouldn't try and educate people on these issues, but that asking someone to put in a ton of effort into a thread like this only for it to fall apart within an hour or two is demoralizing and will only highlight how little most people care about these issues.

 

[killdatninja]

Pardon my ignorance on this topic... I'm trying to get the gist of the situation on the whole.

So I think I have a decent understanding of what a truscum is (thanks to ketkat's posts), what I don't understand is why they have a anti-NB agenda. Is it because truscum perceive the NB movement as damaging to the trans movement (somehow)? If so, how?

At this point it's hard for me to discern if Natalie is harboring these negative opinions on NB's because those are just straight up her beliefs or if she simply doesn't care because it's not directly a part of her cause/agenda/goal. Eitherway, her responses show a lack of self-reflection, she has only demonstrated that she knows that her statements are questionable, but doesn't reflect on why they're problematic...

 

[Syril]

I know this might sound a bit defeatist, but I wouldn't bother putting too much effort into a thread like that. While the content will be great for people to see, threads that are focused on trans or nonbinary issues tend to fall off immediately as there aren't a lot of cis people that are genuinely interested in learning about these issues on the forum.

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Don't worry, I'm not gonna write a treatise or anything, I'd mainly be talking about a comic artist I'm a fan of and leave the door open for other people to do similar things.

I honestly wish I knew of more. The only one I know of is Skatunes, but they're not really an essayist. They just make awesome music covers and promote awareness by being theirself on social media, which is hardly the same thing at all.

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That would be fine, it won't be restricted to essayists. Artists, musicians, cosplayers, developers, writers, anything's game.

I've heavily advocated for that since my very first post in this thread, since it's part of the problem why Natalie's fuck ups are so tragically hurtful: the lack of representation. So, please, by all means, you or anyone, feel free to create one and spread the NB love. I'll do my best to monitor it, as well as the rest of the staff, I'm sure of it.

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Thanks, it makes me feel better seeing support from a moderator on this. I'm not sure when it'll be up, but I'll post a link when it is.

I'm not saying this to mean that someone shouldn't try and educate people on these issues, but that asking someone to put in a ton of effort into a thread like this only for it to fall apart within an hour or two is demoralizing and will only highlight how little most people care about these issues.

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I'm prepared to be let down, but after stumbling on a two year old thread here full of wall to wall truscum shit, I think I have my expectations suitably in check. I'm willing to take a chance in case things go well.

 

[Delphine]

We have had countless educational trans threads over the past 2 years since the site went up. it's not necessarily a staff issue, as much as the people who need those threads will never actually open them. And as it is, trans and nonbinary people will have a much better time finding and talking about these issues within trans spaces like discords or twitter where there's less chance of us being talked over/having to go over the basics time and time again, or able to see just how much we're being ignored.

I'm not saying this to mean that someone shouldn't try and educate people on these issues, but that asking someone to put in a ton of effort into a thread like this only for it to fall apart within an hour or two is demoralizing and will only highlight how little most people care about these issues.

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Sadly, I get what you mean, as it feels eerily similar to the feelings I had when I tried many times to educate people on feminism many years ago before it got very mainstream. I do not wish for anyone to be forced into doing this, and I absolutely understand anyone who actively doesn't feel like doing it, this is a lot of energy to put out there, and it is incredibly draining as is. I've been the one being drained many times already, so I totally understand your position on this.
If, knowing all that, someone still feels like doing it, I'll do my best to encourage it and participate as I think it would bring some good to our community.

For that matter, I want to personally thank you and Kyuuji for all the time, patience and energy you've invested in this thread, and I apologize if it was (and still is) exhausting to deal with our cis ignorance and shortcomings, mines included.

 

[Nappuccino]

Thought Slime is another one.

As a newly-birthed enby (came out earlier this year) I did so because it seemed like the right time due to changing social awareness of us, but then shit like this starts and I'm eye-fucking that closet I came out of cause it feels less-hostile in there.

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I'll give Thought Slime a look later today, thanks!

 

[Deleted member 48897]

Donkey Kong is cool and all but, nonbinary rights OK
--

 

[Syril]

Hey I was thinking I'd have a little banner of sorts by way of an introduction to try to establish a positive tone. Does the wording sound right?

All Non-binary people are valid! There's no threshold! If you feel you are, you are!

 

[Ketkat]

Sadly, I get what you mean, as it feels eerily similar to the feelings I had when I tried many times to educate people on feminism many years ago before it got very mainstream. I do not wish for anyone to be forced into doing this, and I absolutely understand anyone who actively doesn't feel like doing it, this is a lot of energy to put out there, and it is incredibly draining as is. I've been the one being drained many times already, so I totally understand your position on this.
If, knowing all that, someone still feels like doing it, I'll do my best to encourage it and participate as I think it would bring some good to our community.

For that matter, I want to personally thank you and Kyuuji for all the time, patience and energy you've invested in this thread, and I apologize if it was (and still is) exhausting to deal with our cis ignorance and shortcomings, mines included.

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Yeah, that's fair, just wanted to give a fair warning as I've been there and seen others there. I'll definitely throw support behind it where I can as well.

And no problem. Sorry if I've been a little testier than usual in this thread while trying to educate people. For some reason, recent trans threads hit a nerve in some of those off-site places, so venom from some real transphobic buttheads is being thrown our way. But, as I'm sure you've noticed, I'm not really one to sit back and say nothing if I think it can help, so I'll always be around in threads like these if I have the time. While explaining some of the basics time and time again can be exhausting, it does allow me to really refine my answers and get clearer and clearer over time! It's also a little cathartic as a way to push back against the worries I have about living in a transphobic society, so I get something out of it too!

 

[Prolepro]

Hey I was thinking I'd have a little banner of sorts by way of an introduction to try to establish a positive tone. Does the wording sound right?

All Non-binary people are valid! There's no threshold! If you feel you are, you are!

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missing a "fuck truscum" tucked in there somewhere

 

[Deleted member 3093]

GamerGate was literally a bunch of angry men who got mad at a non-binary person. The comparison is incredibly shortsighted and disrespectful.

 

[mael]

GamerGate was literally a bunch of angry men who got mad at a non-binary person. The comparison is incredibly shortsighted and disrespectful.

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Zoe Quinn is nb?
I'm pretty sure it was about a petty ex that felt like unleashing hell on a girl that wasn't that into him.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

Zoe Quinn is nb?

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Yes

 

[mbpm]

I believe Zoe said so recently, yea

 

[mael]

Yes

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I believe Zoe said so recently, yea

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The more you know.
I don't think she ever mentioned that at the time so I feel it's a bit disingenuous to present that like it was a factor at the time.
I mean it changes nothing to the fact that they absolutely would have gone harder (if that is possible) on Quinn if they knew that at the time.
I mean they're the guys who invented the whole playbook on bad faith harassment movements after all.

 

[Prolepro]

GamerGate was literally a bunch of angry men who got mad at a non-binary person. The comparison is incredibly shortsighted and disrespectful.

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It's just fucking stupid.

Like, really, really, really stupid.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

The more you know.
I don't think she ever mentioned that at the time so I feel it's a bit disingenuous to present that like it was a factor at the time.

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It doesn't matter. The fact that GamerGate's goal wasn't to harass them because of them being nb doesn't negate the fact that one of its prime victims was a non-binary person.

 

[Kyuuji]

For that matter, I want to personally thank you and Kyuuji for all the time, patience and energy you've invested in this thread, and I apologize if it was (and still is) exhausting to deal with our cis ignorance and shortcomings, mines included.

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That's kind of you, thank you. I can't take any podium with Ketkat though considering her undying patience. I definitely lose my cool at times and let my irritation at some of the more testing posts seep through into my own. Bullshit needs a counterbalance though - even if that is sometimes studded with thorns.