Cory Barlog addresses the lack of boss fights in GOW

Ravelle · May 31, 2018

He also said that the UI and even the Axe mechanics were a last minute addition, they basically had to work real hard from scratch to get the foundation of the game up to snuff and then doing the finishing touches real quick, it's why the UI/inventory is so messy, this would explain why most of the boss fight mechanics were repeated so often with not much to it. They could have integrated the Valkyries in to the story instead of hiding them to padd the boss fights a bit though, should have helped a bit.

The sequel should require less work/time because the foundation is laid at least.

digita1alchemy · May 31, 2018

Bosses are my favorite thing about action games, so I'm glad I didn't pick this up. Sounds like a talent and/or process problem more than anything.

Nooblet · May 31, 2018

There are like 8 Valkyries in the game who have different moves and fighting style, they even have unique names. But they are all optional. On the other hand main story bosses are relegated to random blue trolls vs red trolls and the likes with little variations between them. The only real boss fights outside of those were the Baldur fights (the first of which never gets topped) and the fight with Thor's sons. The dragon fight was kinda meh, it was scripted but not the a good way like the first Baldur fight.

Lukemia SL · May 31, 2018

Killer751 said:
Not really. Plenty of bad games get really good scores. Just look at Skyward Sword, Bioshock Infinite or Uncharted 4.

Shitty post. Oh you're banned.

Lots of my favourite games have recycled bosses and sub bosses. Resident Evil, The Last of Us, Bayonetts, Okami etc...

Although I would love more it's not a bother for me as the game was a great journey like those others I mentioned from start to finish.

The Bookerman · May 31, 2018

I was lucky to get 5-6 people on my team to work on one boss fight.

1 animator
1 game designer
1 game programmer
1 fx artist
1 Sound guy

on a AAA budget. 20 seems... like overkill.

Deleted member 13101 · May 31, 2018

There is no lack of boss fights in the game. All you need to do is reach into a few places, or hit them to wake them up, and out they come. At certain points in the game they may 1-hit kill you, so watch for that.

Also, you can take on the hardest bosses in the game as soon as you unlock access to them (and good luck to you if you do!) These bosses let you tackle them anyway you want, aside from a few scripted moves. These bosses also don't interfere with you completing the story. Can't say the same about other bosses in some other games.

I always remember the boss fights I wasn't so thrilled with - the final boss in Bioshock, the final boss in Mass Effect 2 for instance.

And I remember the ones that stand out because of game mechanics - the final boss of the Witcher 2, the final bosses of Xenoblade and Xenoblade 2, the final boss/sequence of Bioshock 2, the Mr. Freeze fight in Arkham City, even the first Mass Effect.

I also think people are confusing bosses with scripted/staged sequences of giant-sized adversaries, which if you have to use specific abilities/button presses to get through, not quite the same as an open boss fight.

Pablo Mesa · May 31, 2018

nib95 said:
You say that as if God of War doesn't have an abundance of content as is. It probably has more content than any other comparative hack and slash game. Hell, the campaign is a meaty 20-30 hours long, a far cry from the 10-hour campaigns we got from old God of War games, or past DMC's, Bayonetta's etc.

There's a difference between fair and sensible content expectations and unreasonable one's. Complaining about a lack of bosses is a valid complaint, and one I myself shared, but to claim the game doesn't have a reasonable amount of content would be silly. In terms of overall available content, it's among the best in its genre.

I would rather have those "10 hours campaign" with all the amount of boss fights that some random fetch or number kill missions in Dad of War. im sure most people were in for the game for the combat not the exploration or padded out over world.

Tibarn · May 31, 2018

The only boss I really liked in this game is the first real boss (not the troll).
The 20 years thing is BS, the quality of bosses in GoW is not great at all. As others said From does lots of far better bosses in every game with short development times.

I mean, Baldur is good and really cinematic, but the 2nd fight with him is simple and the last one is recycled and has the same moveset as the first one more or less.
The dragon fight is poor IMO, and the Magni/Modi fight isn't cinematic like the others.
The Valkyries share moves and all of them use the same basic template.

AegonSnake · May 31, 2018

Killer751 said:
Probably by having actual talent.

I refuse to play the new GOW out of principal. I'm getting massive TLOU flashbacks at how people hype this game up just for being a dad simulator.

I'll stick with Yakuza, thanks.

This is by far the worst post i have seen on this new forum, and i have seen people defend racism, rape and Phil Spencer. (that last part is a joke)

You haven't even played the game and you think you have any idea how this game plays. You are clueless and I mean that in the most literal way. You spelled principle wrong. You used it wrong too. There is no principle that makes people skip games because they are dad simulators.

You also accuse people who like this game of being Sony fanboys in another post. You seem to think that the same team that made God of War 3 didnt make this game or somehow lost all talent in the last 8 years.

I can go on but i wont. I have seen many people who are absolutely clueless on these boards but this is by far the worst shit i have read in a while. Good job.

professor_t · May 31, 2018

I wasn't that disappointed in the lack of bosses, but I do wish there had been a little more diversity with the standard enemies. Still, it's a minor knock against a phenomenal game.

LAA · May 31, 2018

I didn't even really think about that till now, but yeah, I guess you could say theres a lack of bosses in this game.
Cory's reasoning doesn't make sense to me though.
If it takes 10-15 people for 1 boss which takes 2 years.. how does he work out 20 years for that?
You'd hire 100-150 people to work on the bosses, so it'd actually take 2 years, you wouldn't only focus on 1 boss per year...
The problem is probably really time/resource constraints, but he doesn't have to make it sound like it's impossible/unfeasible.

Blade Wolf · May 31, 2018

I still really love the game, it's goddamn amazing, but I really wish they didn't just put a reskinned troll as a crucial story boss fight. I'm fine with reskinnd trolls as optional bosses & mini bosses, but putting them in the story like that? It was kinda disappointing tbh.

If we ever got a remaster/remake for this game 20 years later I hope they at least put an actual Bridgekeeper in there and replace that stupid troll, seriously no one likes him, he was a mistake.

professor_t said:
I wasn't that disappointed in the lack of bosses, but I do wish there had been a little more diversity with the standard enemies. Still, it's a minor knock against a phenomenal game.

There're way more enemy variety in this game than any GOW game, hell there're more enemy variety here than Nioh.

It's the bosses that's lacking, not the enemies.

Nymphae · May 31, 2018

Bran Van said:
So they could make them difficult as hell TBH

I think they could have been great in the main path - but they definitely would not have been as difficult

Who cares? There's like 8 or 9 of them right? Put 1 or 2 in the story where people will actually see them, make that 1 or 2 a tad easier.

Bishop89 · May 31, 2018

So, more bosses in GoW 2 then..

I wish there were more bosses, but the bosses we did get were VERY epic and great spectacle.

Gow 3 had quality AND quantity though.

thisismadness · May 31, 2018

optimus8936 said:
I wasn't really bothered by the amount of boss fights. I enjoyed the ones that were there. The Baldur fights were epic as fuck and the Modi/Magni fight was really cool. The valkyries were a really cool part of the game too.

Yep, same way I feel. A lot of them are reskins but I thought they did a great job of mixing them up mechanically. For instance, each of the Valkries have unique attacks that change up how you fight them. Even among the Trolls theres like 3 types with their own abilities.

nib95 · May 31, 2018

The Bookerman said:
I was lucky to get 5-6 people on my team to work on one boss fight.

1 animator
1 game designer
1 game programmer
1 fx artist
1 Sound guy

on a AAA budget. 20 seems... like overkill.

Because some of the boss fights in God of War are insanely ambitious with production values that eclipse the vast majority of games. It's the same reason a game like Grand Theft Auto V had over 1000 people working on it.

Tibarn · May 31, 2018

Nooblet said:
There are like 8 Valkyries in the game who have different moves and fighting style, they even have unique names. But they are all optional. On the other hand main story bosses are relegated to random blue trolls vs red trolls and the likes with little variations between them. The only real boss fights outside of those were the Baldur fights (the first of which never gets topped) and the fight with Thor's sons. The dragon fight was kinda meh, it was scripted but not the a good way like the first Baldur fight.

Yeah, they focused on providing some meaninfgul extra content but it affected the main story boss quality.
And the Valkyries, while having some different attacks/patterns, they all share some moves and movement options, they're a slightly better version of the trolls but I can't consider most of them a totally different boss.

Animal Liberation Ⓥ · May 31, 2018

LAA said:
I didn't even really think about that till now, but yeah, I guess you could say theres a lack of bosses in this game.
Cory's reasoning doesn't make sense to me though.
If it takes 10-15 people for 1 boss which takes 2 years.. how does he work out 20 years for that?
You'd hire 100-150 people to work on the bosses, so it'd actually take 2 years, you wouldn't only focus on 1 boss per year...
The problem is probably really time/resource constraints, but he doesn't have to make it sound like it's impossible/unfeasible.

I think the comment was more 'tongue in cheek' and not to be taken at an actual literal aggregate. Cory can be a sarcastic man.

Azzanadra · May 31, 2018

Pablo Mesa said:
I would rather have those "10 hours campaign" with all the amount of boss fights that some random fetch or number kill missions in Dad of War. im sure most people were in for the game for the combat not the exploration or padded out over world.

Well the difference is that God of War's campaign features encounters that are actually fun and challenging themselves, sure the old God of War games had more bosses, but guess what? They were also the only points where the combat felt good, the constant trash mobs inbetween said bosses in these character-action games are just unfun drivel. Same thing goes for games like Bayonetta and Metal gear Rising.

Deleted member 2145 · May 31, 2018

nib95 said:
You say that as if God of War doesn't have an abundance of content as is. It probably has more content than any other comparative hack and slash game. Hell, the campaign is a meaty 20-30 hours long, a far cry from the 10-hour campaigns we got from old God of War games, or past DMC's, Bayonetta's etc.

There's a difference between fair and sensible content expectations and unreasonable one's. Complaining about a lack of bosses is a valid complaint, and one I myself shared, but to claim the game doesn't have a reasonable amount of content would be silly. In terms of overall available content, it's among the best in its genre.

you're agreeing with me actually

bosses are content and complaining about the lack of bosses amounts to a reasonable expectation of content that was not met which you said is a valid complaint

so yeah

and also it's really the greedy bit that rubs me the wrong way. that was a dumb thing to say. wouldn't be surprised if he had to walk that back

Sento · May 31, 2018

so each soulsborne game takes about 10-15 years to make. Got it.

Animal Liberation Ⓥ · May 31, 2018

Bishop89 said:
So, more bosses in GoW 2 then..

I wish there were more bosses, but the bosses we did get were VERY epic and great spectacle.

Gow 3 had quality AND quantity though.

It appears to be this way, since it seems to be...

a vengeance story for those gods, just as the prior games were a vengeance story for Kratos.

This one was a father/son journey with a narrative to avoid and not go looking for conflict, basically setting up the next one when they had to do what was done.

Blade Wolf · May 31, 2018

Wonderment said:
I also think people are confusing bosses with scripted/staged sequences of giant-sized adversaries, which if you have to use specific abilities/button presses to get through, not quite the same as an open boss fight.

By ''people'' do you mean the director himself?

snausages · May 31, 2018

ShinobiBk said:
You have no idea what my expectations of the game are. I've been very careful to stay away from any media or details about this game and would like to keep it that way

How is it on me? I have purposely kept away from details about this game. I don't need details being put in thread titles when I've been actively avoiding them.
Again, you have no idea what will or will not ruin my experience. I don't want to know anything about the game before I play.

"Cory Barlog address boss fights in GOW"
^^ Thread title that spoils no details about the game but people who've played the game will likely know what is being discussed before opening it

You are just thinking about your experience while dictating the terms of discussion of this forum for everyone else.

That's unfair. If a minor thing like this ruins it for you you should steer clear from discussion forums in general (or stay in etcetera).

Alienous · May 31, 2018

I wouldn't read to much into the 20 years comment without knowing the tone of it.

It probably just means 'a really long time' rather than an accurate calculation. You can imagine that with limited resources every boss is time taken away from other aspects, which then extends development. Game design, visual design, modeling, scripting, texturing, bug-testing, player-testing balancing, sound effects, interaction - each unique boss demands a lot of attention.

Bishop89 · May 31, 2018

Animal Liberation Ⓥ said:
It appears to be this way, since it seems to be...

a vengeance story for those gods, just as the prior games were a vengeance story for Kratos.

This one was a father/son journey with a narrative to avoid and not go looking for conflict, basically setting up the next one.

Hope it turns out like that. Sounds fun :)

Deleted member 2102 · May 31, 2018

I'd have preferred moving the Valkyries to story fights or just not having anything to having another goddamn troll fight. They were arduous in a way that did nothing narratively and felt like thoughtless obstacles from a gameplay perspective. The minor variations rarely made the fights more fun or impactful.

It's clear that a boss heavy game wasn't what they set out to make, but my issue is less with the number of bosses and more with the quality aside from Baldur. The dragon fight in particular just wasn't good. It was technically something of a spectacle, but lacked the narrative energy and intrigue that made the Baldur fight memorable. The gameplay portions of it dragged, with the "dodge phase, opportunity window, attack, repeat" loop going on for too long.

Animal Liberation Ⓥ · May 31, 2018

Bishop89 said:
Hope it turns out like that. Sounds fun :)

There is an epilogue treat

when you go home that sells it big time. As well as Freya telling him she will rain fire down upon him.

So hopefully, lol.

Wackamole · May 31, 2018

digita1alchemy said:
Bosses are my favorite thing about action games, so I'm glad I didn't pick this up. Sounds like a talent and/or process problem more than anything.

What a nonsense post.

Richietto · May 31, 2018

I'm sorry but a few good boss fights doesn't make up for the many trolls with a skin change and a new move or two. The enemy variety sucked.

RexNovis · May 31, 2018

Telling folks they're being greedy is not a good look. At all. The repeated trolls were definitely a low point of the game imo but the bosses that were there were awesome and I wasn't particularly bothered by the quantity personally.

However I could see how some could be let down and yea I'll agree that the boss fight for the second story realm was a bit of a let down.

But I think the side content was fantastic and since I did that all during my playthrough of the story instead of after I never really felt I was lacking for some great combat encounters.

Either way Cory if you're reading this thread I would encourage you to tread more carefully with your words when it comes to criticizing or chastising consumer expectations. Even if you feel you are well in the right to say so it never ends up going well. Better to take the feedback and prove everyone wrong next go around instead.

For what it's worth I thought the game was great but I do see a lot of room for improvement and I've made those opinions clear in other posts I've made regarding the game. If y'all want to see the IP continue to grow you'll need to keep improving and innovating so I hope you'll read criticism of your work very carefully and consider it all when looking at how to build out the next iteration of the series. I'm looking forward to seeing what you all come up with.

Bishop89 · May 31, 2018

Animal Liberation Ⓥ said:
There is an epilogue treat

when you go home that sells it big time. As well as Freya telling him she will rain fire down upon him.

So hopefully, lol.

Yeh that was a nice tease. Unlike Greek mythology, I don't really know Norse characters so don't know what to look forward to besides

Odin, Freya and thor lol

Blade Wolf · May 31, 2018

As much as I absolutely love GOW, this is exactly why I still vastly prefer Souls games when it comes to boss fights, they always put the fight itself in the first place, and they always managed to put up dozens of amazing bosses fights with god tier music and impressive art direction in a single game, and it doesn't take them 5 years just to make a game.

God Of War put way too much emphasis on visual effect and cinematic, those things are expensive and time consuming, and in the end we get a really pretty and impressive boss fight that's not half as fun to fight as Father Gascoigne in Bloodborne.

Deleted member 9486 · May 31, 2018

Aureon said:
20 people for a 1year+ per boss?
Auch. That's a truckload of work.

Seems odd to me given how many bosses the Soulsborne games have that are pretty complex and unique.

I guess he means more the set piece type boss fights like Balfour as I'm sure those take a lot of work.

ShinySunny · May 31, 2018

Most people didn't attempt the Valkyrie fights.
Those are different...well kinda.
Different moves with similar moves+adds and stuff.

FromAshesRise · May 31, 2018

That's a fair explanation. At least it wasn't some obnoxiously stupid bullshit excuse that "boss battles are a thing of the past and aren't relevant anymore".

Pablo Mesa · May 31, 2018

Azzanadra said:
Well the difference is that God of War's campaign features encounters that are actually fun and challenging themselves, sure the old God of War games had more bosses, but guess what? They were also the only points where the combat felt good, the constant trash mobs inbetween said bosses in these character-action games are just unfun drivel. Same thing goes for games like Bayonetta and Metal gear Rising.

thats a trade off you are willingly to make, and an opinion of that of that, Personally I like all the mobs in between in Bayonetta.. even tho is not even close to same comparison due to how enemy fights happens between both games nor the aim of em and how they are used to prolonge game time.
you can try to justify that game had other contents beside the boss fight, and you are not wrong, but that still dont discredit the point that there was a serious lack of boss fights in GoW

Duxxy3 · May 31, 2018

Lack of boss fights didn't really bother me.

Deleted member 13101 · May 31, 2018

Blade Wolf said:
By ''people'' do you mean the director himself?

Generally across the board, everyone - these sequences of largess have become an expectation of the series since later games put such a focus on it, for tech dazzle and other reasons.

Since then we've had other games, and souls-type games, and different RPGs where peoples' expectations of "bosses" have changed. We even had a few games where large final bosses really soured the mood for those games.

But there is plenty of challenge to be had in the new God of War. There are also sequences in the game that are downright spectacles of grandeur. There just isn't a very-large-enemy popping up around every corner.

LAA · May 31, 2018

Animal Liberation Ⓥ said:
I think the comment was more 'tongue in cheek' and not to be taken at an actual literal aggregate. Cory can be a sarcastic man.

Could be so yeah. Text lacks the context of this stuff sadly so can be difficult to tell.

Blade Wolf · May 31, 2018

ShinySunny said:
Most people didn't attempt the Valkyrie fights.
Those are different...well kinda.
Different moves with similar moves+adds and stuff.

I did, they are awesome, way better than the story boss fights. I guess because they are more of an actual fight than a cinematic set piece.

FromAshesRise · May 31, 2018

silva1991 said:
Excuse me? it takes Japanese devs alot less time to make more and better boss fights(see Souls games)

And no one is greedy for asking for more boss fights in a good action game.

I don't disagree with this assessment and that the lack of bosses is a fair criticism against GOW - but people are taking the "you're being greedy" bit way too much at face value and are assuming it's a direct insult at critics. Barlog literally says he wishes there could've been more bosses in the game. Calm down.

Animal Liberation Ⓥ · May 31, 2018

Bishop89 said:
Yeh that was a nice tease. Unlike Greek mythology, I don't really know Norse characters so don't know what to look forward to besides

Odin, Freya and thor lol

I just started up Hellblade for the first time, since GoW got my Norse Myth juices flowing. And man it is so well done so far with how they envisioned it. Lot of (obvious) similarities with the names of the realms/worlds, etc., made it so much easier to understand after playing GoW.

Let's just say...

It covers a few (so far) of the Norse gods, so definitely give it a look. The game has so much atmosphere and sucks you right in. The combat is fun so far as well.

Also, there is a theory that Kratos may be Odin, they just do not know it yet, since they told the story of the World Serpent, and how he traveled back in time, so he knows the future. Since Atreus is actually Loki, and Faye is short for 'Laufey the Just' which was Loki's mother in Norse myth is another sign. How Odin was trying so hard to prevent Ragnarok, that he actually caused it himself to happen (accidentally), probably when time was screwed up when he flipped the world tree gate. Also remember when Kratos disappeared in the light, it was mere seconds to him, but hours for Atreus. They touched on time and relativity a lot. Also on the title screen, the wooden carvings of Atreus and Kratos, it looks like Kratos has a patch over his eye, Odin lost one of his eyes, which caused him to take Mirmir's. Kind of an exciting theory, and we shall see.

iksenpets · May 31, 2018

I'm glad they chose to focus more on the level and puzzle design elements of the game, rather than a giant chain of set-piece boss fights like GoW3, as those parts are what I've enjoyed most, but a handful of those trolls definitely could've stood to have been replaced by something more unique. They didn't need to be anything major like Balder or the dragon, but some unique midbosses would've been nice.

RexNovis · May 31, 2018

Pablo Mesa said:
I would rather have those "10 hours campaign" with all the amount of boss fights that some random fetch or number kill missions in Dad of War. im sure most people were in for the game for the combat not the exploration or padded out over world.

You are severely misrepresenting the nature of the side content in the game. About the only tedious fetch mission style content I came across getting my platinum was the treasure map stuff and the only "kill mission" that I can recall was the damn Odin's Eyes.

The way some folks talk about the game I wonder if they even played the same game I did. I've criticized the game on this forum for a number of different reasons but side content depth and breadth is definitely not one of those. If the side content in this game was not up to par for you I honestly don't know what on earth you could possibly be comparing it to.

medyej · May 31, 2018

The lack of good boss fights was one of my biggest letdowns with the game, and it's just something I feel the series has always done great with that was lackluster this time. Really didn't like the reuse of the troll enemy in place of them too.

The line about players being greedy is pretty lame, it's more just wanting what I like from that the series has delivered before in spades.

ThisThingIsUseful · May 31, 2018

Pablo Mesa said:
I would rather have those "10 hours campaign" with all the amount of boss fights that some random fetch or number kill missions in Dad of War. im sure most people were in for the game for the combat not the exploration or padded out over world.

I was in for the combat, but the exploration won me over and nothing felt padded out. In fact, stumbling upon hidden areas and seeing how layered they were (the amount of mini-puzzles, side/secret paths) ended up being one of my favorite parts.

Deleted member 41931 · May 31, 2018

C'mon Cory, you should have just left it at time constraints.

we got about 15 to 20 people on each boss, and those bosses go anywhere from a year to two each

I could see this being applicable to the Dragon and Baldr fights, but I don't see how this is possible for the rest. Also, I'm not sure priorities are entirely in the right place if the boss fights took two years and only managed to have 4 moves like the first baldr fight.

You're kind of being greedy, because while I'd love like ten more bosses in there, this game would have taken like 20 years to make

No, we're really not. Nobody is asking for 10 more and nobody is requiring them to be as lavish as Baldr. You're not doing yourself any favors trying to pull a straw man. I imagine people would be completely content with one or two unique boss fight up to par with one of the Valaryies in quality.

There's not a lot of characters. There's not a lot of bosses. And that's intentional, 100%. You look at the first God of War game, not a lot of bosses. Not a lot of characters. And I think that's good.

Weird, because I'm pretty sure you litterally just said you'd love 10 more bosses and you cut a bunch due to resources. Also, you don't seem to think fewer is better in 2018 GoW based on the 30+(iirc) Trolls, Ancients and Valkyries.

Deleted member 21709 · May 31, 2018

Good to know there are no boss fights, I guess?

Vroadstar · May 31, 2018

RexNovis said:
You are severely misrepresenting the nature of the side content in the game. About the only tedious fetch mission style content I came across getting my platinum was the treasure map stuff and the only "kill mission" that I can recall was the damn Odin's Eyes.

The way some folks talk about the game I wonder if they even played the same game I did. I've criticized the game on this forum for a number of different reasons but side content depth and breadth is definitely not one of those. If the side content in this game was not up to par for you I honestly don't know what on earth you could possibly be comparing it to.

I think his "Dad of War" quote is a dead giveaway that's its a drive by shit post

Cory Barlog addresses the lack of boss fights in GOW

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