Counterpart |OT| A parallel reality sci-fi espionage thriller w/ JK Simmons, Starz, starts 1/21

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,944
I really enjoyed the show. Kind of bummed that it got cancelled but if it has to end there at least it managed to end on a pretty conclusive note. Totally saw the end twist coming as soon as that scene started. My only regret is that good Howard and good Emily didn't end up together.
 

TheIlliterati

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,947
My only regret is that good Howard and good Emily didn't end up together.
I think its ambiguous. Or at least there's wiggle room enough for you to interpret that the Howards switched again. The insinuation that the 'dark' Howard made a new deal that he should've a long time ago, and the long look Temple gives the supposedly widowed Howard at the end. I'm going to assume they switched.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
It's mind-boggling that they would rush the finale like this after spending a whole season doing nothing with its best characters. This season is a credit to Harry Lloyd's charisma because it single-handedly kept it on life support.

I would have loved another season 1, but this show became so aimless, the cancellation turned out to be a blessing. Halfway through this season most of its characters were left with nothing to do, while the rest actively tried to get away from being involved in the story. This cast simply couldn't support another season.

My headcannon states that the Howards switched again.
I'm pretty sure that's just regular old canon. The Howard walking through the crossing kept awkwardly looking back towards the door and Howard Prime talks about suddenly coming up with a "better deal," which clearly wasn't anything official.
It's a cute gimmick, but I'm not a fan of Howard suddenly deciding that he would like to exchange his Emily for the other model. Anna would be a much more consistent reason for him to cross to the other side, but she kinda disappeared from the story a few eps back.
 

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,944
I think its ambiguous. Or at least there's wiggle room enough for you to interpret that the Howards switched again. The insinuation that the 'dark' Howard made a new deal that he should've a long time ago, and the long look Temple gives the supposedly widowed Howard at the end. I'm going to assume they switched.
Somehow I didn't see these signs but I like it. Let's go with that.
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
I wonder how that was a better deal for Nadia though. She built her bond with Prime, not Alpha Howard.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
Suddenly? Their relationship had been budding for some time. It was obvious he had fallen for her when he hesitated on returning to his own world.
Yeah, that's when the sudden change happened. He also immediately started talking differently about Emily Alpha when he got shot because they were setting things up for the finale.

I wonder how that was a better deal for Nadia though. She built her bond with Prime, not Alpha Howard.
Their bond wasn't exactly friendship. She's with a Howard who knows how to be a human being, that seems like a pretty nice deal.
 

dead souls

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,651
Solid episode that easily works as a series finale. I respected this show more than I actually enjoyed watching it so I'm fine with this being the last we see of it.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,330
Chicago
Terrific ending, very satisfying, if a little conservative.

I'll be sad if we never see more counterpart, but I'm happy to see them go out on top.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
I didn't notice any false notes ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Honestly, my biggest issue with how it was handled was the timing of it all. The choice itself makes sense, but it needed time to breathe and they went through the choice, an explosive solution, the aftermath and moved on from it in a single episode. That's really not how things used to work on this show.
 

TheNatureBoy

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,648
I hadn't considered the switcharoo while watching the finale, but after reading the comments I could see how it is a possibility. When Howard Prime mentioned to Baldwin he made a "better deal", I took it as he no longer wanted to stay in the Alpha world and just wanted to go back home after everything that happened. That he should have left a long time ago. Yet, him giving Howard Alpha a chance to reunite with Emily works as well.

I thought the finale was really satisfying for the most part and wrapped up the big threads. I do really hope the show is able to find another home to continue.

Justin Marks talking about the finale.
https://www.tvguide.com/news/counterpart-season-2-finale-justin-marks-interview/
 

Qvoth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,738
I think its ambiguous. Or at least there's wiggle room enough for you to interpret that the Howards switched again. The insinuation that the 'dark' Howard made a new deal that he should've a long time ago, and the long look Temple gives the supposedly widowed Howard at the end. I'm going to assume they switched.
just finished watching, yeah i agree
howard OG would still be grieving, but this one was like smiling and shit to naya, it just feels weird
totally didn't see yanek though, goddamn mira
reaaaaaally hope amazon or netflix buys this
 

Dr.Acula

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,796
Sooooooo, I was reading Nazanin Boniadi's wiki (she plays Clare, that's Peter Quayle's wife, they have the two-world baby, their daughter Spencer), and this is just nuts:

On May 10, 2017, American journalist Tony Ortega reported on FBI testimony that Boniadi had given in January 2010 regarding her brief relationship with actor Tom Cruise from late 2004 until early 2005 through the Church of Scientology. Boniadi's testimony describes how the church's Office of Special Affairs selected her to be Cruise's girlfriend. In October 2004, Nazanin Boniadi was volunteering for the Office of Special Affairs in Los Angeles, then was told by church official Greg Wilhere that she had been selected for a special project. Boniadi was told that her dental braces had to be removed and that her red hair highlights had to be corrected to one all-over colour. She was also encouraged to end her relationship with her longtime boyfriend. Boniadi had to sign a confidentiality agreement, stating she could not abandon this special project without the church's approval. Approximately one month later, after the church arranged for her to fly to New York, she learned that the project was to be a suitable girlfriend for Cruise. Portions of Boniadi's testimony read that "at the beginning of the relationship [he] was very romantic but as the relationship progressed [Cruise] began to have temper tantrums. [Cruise] began to show violent tendencies". In January 2005, after their relationship ended, Boniadi confessed her devastation over the matter to her friend (a fellow church member). She was reportedly punished for this by Church of Scientology's policies. She reportedly "had to dig ditches at midnight and scrub floor tiles ... She was placed on a curfew... escorted everywhere she went". Her testimony also refers to her "feel[ing] she was a victim of white slavery because she traveled across state lines under false pretences".

In 2017, she tweeted congratulations to Leah Remini and Mike Rinder on their series Scientology and the Aftermath winning an Emmy Award. In an interview with the Los Angeles Times Boniadi described her role in Counterpart as cathartic and therapeutic, saying "sometimes there are personal traumas that you don't ever talk about publicly but you pour it into your work". She continued: "this idea of shedding indoctrination and finding out who you are for me is a strong one. It has been extremely therapeutic for me to be able to put it out into the world through my art as opposed to openly discussing it."
She's playing herself!
 

kevin1025

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,785
Sooooooo, I was reading Nazanin Boniadi's wiki (she plays Clare, that's Peter Quayle's wife, they have the two-world baby, their daughter Spencer), and this is just nuts:



She's playing herself!
It's also briefly touched on in the documentary Going Clear, it's a wrenching story. She's a fantastic actress, here and in Homeland a little while back (of the things I've seen her in!).
 

Sadsic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
534
New Jersey
I hadn't considered the switcharoo while watching the finale, but after reading the comments I could see how it is a possibility. When Howard Prime mentioned to Baldwin he made a "better deal", I took it as he no longer wanted to stay in the Alpha world and just wanted to go back home after everything that happened. That he should have left a long time ago. Yet, him giving Howard Alpha a chance to reunite with Emily works as well.

I thought the finale was really satisfying for the most part and wrapped up the big threads. I do really hope the show is able to find another home to continue.

Justin Marks talking about the finale.
https://www.tvguide.com/news/counterpart-season-2-finale-justin-marks-interview/
In reading that interview, it seemed like the creator planned for there to be one or two more arcs in different locations away from Berlin for future seasons - this reminds me of the trajectory for previous shows Carnivale and The Knick, both of which were cancelled after 2 seasons and end on a conclusive note but also had creators saying they wanted to expand the show into completely new realms and locations for future seasons if possible

personally I don't know if i even want to see the future version of Counterpart in some other location, I was satisfied with these two seasons as they are
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,359
I kinda feel like I wanted this show to be more a spy/sci fi show and it ended up being a romantic drama. Possibly not fair, and there's always been that undercurrent from the beginning but it seemed to lean in hard in the last two.

Oh well, glad things got mostly resolved but I didn't find any of it really that satisfying nor would I really recommend the show to anyone. At least it started out very ambitious I guess.

What the show really makes me think about doing is rewatching Fringe and 12 Monkeys, both of which tackled similar subjects I thought far, far more gripping.
 

Tap In

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,117
Gilbert AZ
Ok just finished ep 10.

Not bad ending... fucking Mira

Yes would have preferred more sci-fi too but it had a good premise just never lived up to what i had hoped

Oh well
 

HotHamBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,532
I have a theory about the ending, is anyone else discussing this?

I came away from the finale fairly convinced that Howard Prime is the one who returned to the other side and will pursue a relationship with the living Emily and her daughter.

I believe the other Howard is the one who wants out of this life and he personally feels like his family deserves the better version of him on their side.

But I guess we'll never know. Seems they left it open enough for a Season 3 but I think if they'd been resigned to Season 2 being the last the above theory would have been confirmed in the finale.

For now, that's my head canon. The ending is just too bleak otherwise.
 

TheNatureBoy

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,648
I have a theory about the ending, is anyone else discussing this?

I came away from the finale fairly convinced that Howard Prime is the one who returned to the other side and will pursue a relationship with the living Emily and her daughter.

I believe the other Howard is the one who wants out of this life and he personally feels like his family deserves the better version of him on their side.

But I guess we'll never know. Seems they left it open enough for a Season 3 but I think if they'd been resigned to Season 2 being the last the above theory would have been confirmed in the finale.

For now, that's my head canon. The ending is just too bleak otherwise.
Check out the comments on this pg and the previous one, where your theory is speculated. Many feel that could indeed be the case.
 

HotHamBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,532
I hadn't considered the switcharoo while watching the finale, but after reading the comments I could see how it is a possibility. When Howard Prime mentioned to Baldwin he made a "better deal", I took it as he no longer wanted to stay in the Alpha world and just wanted to go back home after everything that happened. That he should have left a long time ago. Yet, him giving Howard Alpha a chance to reunite with Emily works as well.

I thought the finale was really satisfying for the most part and wrapped up the big threads. I do really hope the show is able to find another home to continue.

Justin Marks talking about the finale.
https://www.tvguide.com/news/counterpart-season-2-finale-justin-marks-interview/
just finished watching, yeah i agree
howard OG would still be grieving, but this one was like smiling and shit to naya, it just feels weird
totally didn't see yanek though, goddamn mira
reaaaaaally hope amazon or netflix buys this
After the confrontation with the gun between Howards the Other Howard realizes just how much Howard Prime has lost.

After that, he tells Nadia he made a new deal.

Other Howard gets a clean break as everyone thinks he's Prime.

Howard Prime gets his family back, or the one he never had. Other Howard would feel that his family and Howard Prime deserve each other and that he personally has no future with them.

Unfortunately, the show is really vague about this but I think this is what Other Howard's arc has been leading to. The clues are there. I think it's undeniable that the Howard who speaks to Naya at the end seems more like Other Howard (especially given how recent Emily Prime's death was) and his dialogue is very cagey.

I'm sure the writers realize this would be the most satisfying outcome, but I also think they clearly wanted another season and wanted to keep some surprises close to the vest.
 
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Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,294
Started watching this the other day, just finished season 1. Holy shiiit, this show is great.

Tons of great characters, cast, acting and directing. It's pretty damn stellar all around.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
In reading that interview, it seemed like the creator planned for there to be one or two more arcs in different locations away from Berlin for future seasons - this reminds me of the trajectory for previous shows Carnivale and The Knick, both of which were cancelled after 2 seasons and end on a conclusive note but also had creators saying they wanted to expand the show into completely new realms and locations for future seasons if possible

personally I don't know if i even want to see the future version of Counterpart in some other location, I was satisfied with these two seasons as they are
I find it amazing that you'd describe the ending of Carnivàle as conclusive. It was as if one were to take the Twin Peaks season 1 pile-up of cliffhangers and amped up all of them to have the impact of the end of season 2. There has never been a show I wanted needed to return more than Carnivàle.

As for Counterpart, I couldn't be happier that it's over. Marks can talk all he wants about their roadmap for the show, but it's pretty clear that didn't know where they were going after season 1. Turning Mira into an omniscient supervillain the entire story suddenly revolved around was up there with the most transparent desperate attempts to find a new direction for a show.
 
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HotHamBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,532
I find it amazing that you'd describe the ending of Carnivàle as conclusive. It was as if one were to take the Twin Peaks season 1 pile-up of cliffhangers and amped up all of them to have the impact of the end of season 2. There has never been a show I wanted needed to return more than Carnivàle.

As for Counterpart, I couldn't be happier that it's over. Marks can talk all he wants about their roadmap for the show, but it's pretty clear that didn't know where they were going after season 1. Turning Mira into an omniscient supervillain the entire story suddenly revolved around was up there with the most transparent desperate attempts to find a new direction for a show.
It did feel like the show was spinning its wheels for most of season 2
 

CreepingFear

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,165
Saw this retweeted on Twitter


For those that can't see Tweet, it's the creator/show runner posting a note that Counterpart is about identity. He is apparently trying to pitch it to other distributors.
I hope someone is a fan, like how Bezos was a fan of The Expanse and picked it up for Amazon.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
4,639
Saw this retweeted on Twitter


For those that can't see Tweet, it's the creator/show runner posting a note that Counterpart is about identity. He is apparently trying to pitch it to other distributors.
I hope someone is a fan, like how Bezos was a fan of The Expanse and picked it up for Amazon.
Best of luck to those who want more, but Counterpart is no Expanse.
 

Nude_Tayne

Member
Jan 8, 2018
1,450
earth
So the show has been completely dropped from Starz's app.
Yup, it's funny, I got the free trial for Starz on Hulu just to watch this show, figured I might keep it because I like some Starz stuff. Watched the first episode, came back later to watch the 2nd episode and the show had disappeared. Okaaay, I guess you don't want my money.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,330
Chicago
Best of luck, Counterpart! I'm really rooting for a season 3.

I will buy Season 2 when it comes out on blu-ray, just like I did with Season 1. Maybe it's unavailability on Starz is a positive sign?
 

FRANKEINSTEIN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,379
AZ
I bought season 1 today on Vudu. It's on sale for $10. I was able to watch the first few episodes when I bought a month of Starz for Ash season 3. I really liked what I saw. Just ran out of time to finish it.
 

Joyful

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
503
Not sure where the show could go after season 2 honestly story wise
I'd still watch a season 3 probably because the unique setting and feel of the show.

End Spoilers
I liked the ending personally, it's rare to see the bad guys win
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,330
Chicago
Not sure where the show could go after season 2 honestly story wise
I'd still watch a season 3 probably because the unique setting and feel of the show.

End Spoilers
I liked the ending personally, it's rare to see the bad guys win
I really liked the ending too, and I feel like every story arc was wrapped up, but they could pick it up again, possibly with a character arc set between Twin Cities and the beginning of Season 1, or maybe with the reopening of the crossing point, many years later.

Clearly, the show runner has some ideas or he wouldn't be pitching a new season.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,294
Season 2 ends with a pretty clear idea of where a possible season 3 would be heading.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
Season 2 ends with a pretty clear idea of where a possible season 3 would be heading.
Straight into cancellation because it left its characters with nothing left to do and unwilling to participate in further stories.

Marks claims that they had plans to take the show beyond Berlin, which sounds like it wouldn't (shouldn't) involve Howards and I don't know who would want to watch a Counterpart without them.
Season 2 already shifted focus too far away from them. As much as I love watching Peter squirm, this supporting cast can't carry the show and they haven't done a great job introducing new characters in the second season.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,294
Straight into cancellation because it left its characters with nothing left to do and unwilling to participate in further stories.

Marks claims that they had plans to take the show beyond Berlin, which sounds like it wouldn't (shouldn't) involve Howards and I don't know who would want to watch a Counterpart without them.
I'm not why you just assume that it wouldn't involve Howard, there could be a billion reasons the writers could think of for why Howard would be involved in whatever plot would happen in season 3. Just because you can't think of ideas for a season 3 doesn't mean the writers couldn't.
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
Now that Emily is effectively management, it would be very easy to loop Howard in.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
I'm not why you just assume that it wouldn't involve Howard, there could be a billion reasons the writers could think of for why Howard would be involved in whatever plot would happen in season 3. Just because you can't think of ideas for a season 3 doesn't mean the writers couldn't.
That's why I said shouldn't. The ending put both of them in two interesting yet comfortable places, it would be a shame to have some a contrived plot drag them out on globetrotting adventures against their will.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,294
That's why I said shouldn't. The ending put both of them in two interesting yet comfortable places, it would be a shame to have some a contrived plot drag them out on globetrotting adventures against their will.
Again, you say contrived like there's no other possible concussion. I'm sure the writers are smart enough to think of more storylines that aren't contrived.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
Again, you say contrived like there's no other possible concussion. I'm sure the writers are smart enough to think of more storylines that aren't contrived.
Season 2 set certain expectations. They've shown to be terrible at reinventing characters and escalating stakes, which is why I don't think that expanding the scope of the show would be a good idea.
Counterpart worked best as a small(ish) scale character study, before it became a show about saving the world from some random teacher a supervillain.
If they could somehow revert to being that again, cool, I love a good surprise. I just haven't seen much in the last ten episodes to suggest that they're still interested in telling smaller stories.