Critical Role |OT| Is It Thursday Yet?

Wunder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,034
There is no such thing as a 'surprise round' in 5E. The way to determine surprise is from rolling stealth against a character's passive Perception. Individuals in a group can be surprised while others are not, and those that are lose their action, movement and reaction for the first turn, but still roll initiative as normal.

It's definitely an interesting scenario because while I agree with the poster, I have also repeatedly let spells have leeway when cast out of combat, which is just another advantage spellcasters get over martials. It was undeniably a great moment but I think I might have at the very least called for an initiative roll to see if she could cast it before the hag could react. You could also rule that the hag was simply not expecting combat, due to the 24? Persuasion and having just eaten a spiked cupcake, but she seems like the suspicious type that would have her guard up no matter what.
 

Smiley90

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,023
My opinion on that is that say even IF the hag noticed her casting

a) Modify memory would've erased her memory of Jester casting it
b) If Jester failed it doesn't matter whether she noticed Jester casting it before the spell goes through because she'd notice the failed spell ANYWAY - just a second later

So it doesn't really matter that it was a "surprise", as noticing or not would've resulted in the same thing.
 

Wunder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,034
That's true, the repercussions for failing that would have essentially been the same if not worse had the hag noticed and said something/stopped it.

We don't know if the Hag couldn't have done anything to stop it, as she could potentially cast a spell in retaliation, with the initiative roll representing her swift speed. If Jester was Paralyzed or Restrained her spell wouldn't have been able to go off.
 

Arrrammis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
570
There was also the effect of the dust of deliciousness giving disadvantage on all wisdom rolls - including perception, so given that Jester had already lowered the hag's guard, it's totally possible that Jester got it off before the hag realized - and then modified her memory after the fact, so the hag never knew.

In-game logistics aside, that's the kind of crazy hail mary setup that a good DM can lean in to - having this big setup, the casting of the highest level magic they have access to, and everyone at the table on the edge of their seats excited, it's way better to reward that ingenuity, rather than shut her down with a counterspell and thus teach players that the only way to win is to kill the enemy - no fun or clever solutions allowed.
 

Kard8p3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,666
People complaining about this just come off as petty/sticklers/only caring about combat.

Give me out of nowhere genius rp moments any day. Matt handled it well. It's obviously going to come back to bite them, probably even worse than if they had fought her that moment.
 

Wunder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,034
I know I probably shouldn't continue talking about it but I do like discussing rules purely for the sake of discussion - did you guys think Jester had pre-sprinkled that dust on the cupcake before going in, or in the narrative, sprinkled it right there and then hand it to the hag?
 

fallout

Member
Oct 27, 2017
673
I have no problem with him letting it go in that moment because the memory modification kind of renders it moot, but one thing that's worth keeping in mind is that sorcerers have this available to them:

Subtle Spell
When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.

This has come up in my game in a number of RP moments, and it's kind of forced me to be more consistent with how I handle situations where a character is casting something but doesn't want to be noticed.
 

TheCthultist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,691
New York
I have no problem with him letting it go in that moment because the memory modification kind of renders it moot, but one thing that's worth keeping in mind is that sorcerers have this available to them:

Subtle Spell
When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.

This has come up in my game in a number of RP moments, and it's kind of forced me to be more consistent with how I handle situations where a character is casting something but doesn't want to be noticed.
And thats totally fine when dealing with a game that has a sorcerer in it. Campaign 2 has none.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with how Matt handled this situation.

I know I probably shouldn't continue talking about it but I do like discussing rules purely for the sake of discussion - did you guys think Jester had pre-sprinkled that dust on the cupcake before going in, or in the narrative, sprinkled it right there and then hand it to the hag?
Narratively I’d like to believe that she did it months ago when she got the cupcake and it’s just been getting staler and harder alongside the cupcake itself this entire time.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,314
I just got into this. Im loving it. The storytelling is amazing and sometimes it is absolutely hilarious aka consequences and cows. im on episode 27.
 

vastag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
536
In-game logistics aside, that's the kind of crazy hail mary setup that a good DM can lean in to - having this big setup, the casting of the highest level magic they have access to, and everyone at the table on the edge of their seats excited, it's way better to reward that ingenuity, rather than shut her down with a counterspell and thus teach players that the only way to win is to kill the enemy - no fun or clever solutions allowed.
I think that this is the most important part. You don't want the group to always default to combat to solve situations. Also, is not like it was a consecuence free action. The hag is going to come sooner or later, and she doesn't seem like the type that takes a direct approach. She is going to mess with them in the worst moment.
 

TheMango55

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,775
I finally finished the most recent episode.

I didn't get as much out of it as most as I'm only about 40 episodes into campaign 1 so I don't know who Artigan is.

But I do find it amusing that Jester is not only in a cult, but she's supposed to be the cult leader.
 

Smiley90

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,023
I finally finished the most recent episode.

I didn't get as much out of it as most as I'm only about 40 episodes into campaign 1 so I don't know who Artigan is.

But I do find it amusing that Jester is not only in a cult, but she's supposed to be the cult leader.
Artigan's just a (minor) side character from Campaign one, you didn't miss out on TOO much inside-joking.
 

Masoyama

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,601
I finally finished the most recent episode.

I didn't get as much out of it as most as I'm only about 40 episodes into campaign 1 so I don't know who Artigan is.

But I do find it amusing that Jester is not only in a cult, but she's supposed to be the cult leader.
The biggest thing is that people have been guessing that Artagan is the Traveller from day 1 and it feels good to have your close attention rewarded. Artagan was a cool enough character on its own but not a top character
 

PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,236
People complaining about this just come off as petty/sticklers/only caring about combat.

Give me out of nowhere genius rp moments any day. Matt handled it well. It's obviously going to come back to bite them, probably even worse than if they had fought her that moment.
I just got to the cupcake moment. Those people conveniently ignore the first two rules which trump all others; have fun and the DM can do whatever they want. The rules just set expectations but if they get in the way of having fun or a legendary moment, they should be conveniently forgotten for the moment. The creators and designers stress this over and over again so I’m not sure where these rules people get their ideas from. Obviously, you should follow most of the rules as it provides framework for a good time and sets common expectations but a great DM knows when to let them slide at the right moment. Turns out Matt is s very good DM.

Another thing that bothered me was the other players trying to barge in on the moment. Like the intentions were good but man just let it play out. Even if she actually gave up her hands, let her make that choice. Sometimes it’s good to let bad, dramatic stuff happen in a story.
 

Smiley90

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,023
I just got to the cupcake moment. Those people conveniently ignore the first two rules which trump all others; have fun and the DM can do whatever they want. The rules just set expectations but if they get in the way of having fun or a legendary moment, they should be conveniently forgotten for the moment. The creators and designers stress this over and over again so I’m not sure where these rules people get their ideas from. Obviously, you should follow most of the rules as it provides framework for a good time and sets common expectations but a great DM knows when to let them slide at the right moment. Turns out Matt is s very good DM.

Another thing that bothered me was the other players trying to barge in on the moment. Like the intentions were good but man just let it play out. Even if she actually gave up her hands, let her make that choice. Sometimes it’s good to let bad, dramatic stuff happen in a story.
The group -cough- Taliesin -cough- metagames a bit too much sometimes, I agree.
 

deprecated

Member
Apr 15, 2019
670
I finally finished this week's episode last night and AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! The way Matt brought Artagon to Jester both makes her story wildly more interesting and diffuses the built up TravelerCon expectations. Now we without a shadow of a doubt that it's going to be a terrible, fun ride up to a cluster of a gathering. Plus, we're back to a jungle / ocean setting!

* ahem *

The Vox Machina x Mighty Nein game will be Vox machina trying to ban Artagan and Mighty Nein trying to stop them.
I think this is a really interesting and fun idea partly because I think that would taint the M9's view of Tal'Dorei and Allura. I would love to watch this crossover!

I love these commercials. Every time he does a head swivel between three different cameras in rapid succession I always lose it. Speaking of...did anything ever come of those Sam Reigel commercials where the camera slowly zoomed in / zoomed out? The way they were structured I figured they would eventually reveal a show / event.
 

SilkySm00th

Member
Oct 31, 2017
881
The group -cough- Taliesin -cough- metagames a bit too much sometimes, I agree.
You know as the player at the table with the most "insider" knowledge on D&D it's probably very hard for surprises to catch him hard off guard. And watching Laura turn the screws and pull one over on a literal super-grandma witch you could see in his eyes the entire narrative of that very moment in his braind! LoL
"Probability says that won't work ... not RAW what's happening here... throwing yourself out there quite a bit and this will almost certainly fai-OH MY GOD IT WORKED"

But yeah he and Marisha are most definitely guilty of the worst KIND of meta game stuff but EVERYONE at that table has their moments. Cue pigeon noises.
 

flare

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
846
Now that I've got the time (ironically, while working) I finally got back into this. Finished episode 50 for the first campaign over the weekend. Matt really outdid himself with the start of this chapter, shit was intense. Soon™ I'll be caught up.
 

Kai Dracon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,960
Rita Repulsa's Moon Palace
Man, why do I have the feeling that part of why Artagan is being pulled too thin could be The Traveler as a religion isn't well defined yet. Jester hasn't really met and talked to other serious believers. We haven't seen what The Traveler means to anyone else yet.

Her pamphlets might say he wants people to be "naughty". There could be a dozen different interpretations tearing Artagan apart.

Travelercon could be an attempt to arrange a religious conclave and work out the dogma. His Council of Nicaea.
 

Wunder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,034
I wonder how similar Artagan is in 'power' or godhood to someone like Vesh, who Matt has stated isn't a god or deity in the traditional sense, but still held immense power. She also granted clerical powers and did not forge a pact with Kashaw, but from what I remember him saying, it was like a ritual in the village and not a slow process of introduction and discovery.
 

deprecated

Member
Apr 15, 2019
670
Pretty much, but Matt mentioned in the end of campain Q&A or something that she wasn't an actual god and had more to do with Kashaw's belief in her than anything else.
To be honest wouldn't this make Vox Machina gods? There have to be thousands of people that believe they're going to save / protect them. Would they have to come out and convince people they are gods so that people's belief in them would make them gods or something?
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,280
Toronto

SilkySm00th

Member
Oct 31, 2017
881
I think the deal with Artigan and his godhood has more to do with Jesters belief in him - not that he would save her or anything of that sort - but that her carefree and open trickstery way of life was always being watched over and powered by "the Traveller" - everyone knows who Vox Machina are, where they come from - all that stuff. I mean shit there is a straight up human in the mix. They are missing the "absolute belief" that they are actually GODS. Something Jester in her childlike wonderment ways is able to give ol Arty without even realizing it.

I really do hope Traveller Con turns into a crowning of Exandria's first Trickster Pope.
 

Smiley90

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,023
whoa the traveler being Artagan was Laura's idea! Amazing.

(From talks: cause she wanted to originally make a warlock with a fey patron)
 

Wunder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,034
She knew all the time, but the way Matt was playing it so mysterious she wondered if Matt had changed it on her and the Traveler was now someone else.
That's awesome! It always sounded like they left things up to Matt's discretion, but having such a core detail fleshed out from the beginning is cool to hear, even if she was unsure up til the reveal.
 

Reinhard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,616
I like but also don't like this? Not really a suprise if she knew the whole time.
She was going to be a warlock using Artagan as her fey patron/book of secrets but then Travis saw how cool warlocks were and wanted to play one. So she then asked Matt if she could be a cleric instead and he agreed. In talks, she said she kept giving Matt knowing looks about the Traveler but with his stone face she wasn't sure if he switched things up on her.
 

deprecated

Member
Apr 15, 2019
670
Talks was really fun last night. That was a great mix of laughter, jokes, and actual info.

Dani also finally asked what Laura thought about Liam and Travis taking her class in both campaigns then becoming Paladins. If I was her I'd honestly crowd out anybody in the third campaign from taking my class. Especially since Laura seems very anti-Paladin so she's down a potential class option.