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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I guess this is where realism and fantasy part ways, but none of them would know what Veth's voice in her halfling form sounded like. And for that matter, none of them would know what Veth's brain was like (Sam said he talked with Matt about how the brain physiology of her goblin form was changing Veth's personality, so the reverse should hold true for consistency). I don't know if those particulars are normally just handwaved away as a True Polymorph thing, but it seems to me there's a big difference between making someone, let's say, a dragon permanently, versus turning someone specifically into Raishan when the mage has only seen an image.
They talked about the polymorph rule just yesterday with Chris Perkins off screen and he said your mind stays the same in polymorphed forms. I assume however goblin-y Nott got would remain, and might slowly change as she lived back in halfling form.
 

Lexad

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,046
Her old body isn't necessary. I think Nott's gambit is getting Caleb to use True Polymorph to turn her back into her old self permanently. She can use disguise self to show him what she used to look like, and then bing bang boom. That's a lot of levels away, though, and a lot can change between now and then.

I wonder if Caleb or Jester will turn her back into her old self for an hour at a time with regular Polymorph as a gift. A chance to talk to her husband and child again to say a temporary goodbye after the rescue, though. The comedown back into goblin form might be more depressing than the temporary transformation was worth.
Sadly polymorph only allows beasts, not humanoids. However Alter Self I believe would do the trick which is only a second level spell
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,232
Also, Disguise Self is only visual, so Nott would still have her goblin voice. I don't think Matt brought that up last time, maybe Nott is a good voice actor on the side.
 

Deleted member 1190

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,663
Her old body isn't necessary. I think Nott's gambit is getting Caleb to use True Polymorph to turn her back into her old self permanently. She can use disguise self to show him what she used to look like, and then bing bang boom. That's a lot of levels away, though, and a lot can change between now and then.

I wonder if Caleb or Jester will turn her back into her old self for an hour at a time with regular Polymorph as a gift. A chance to talk to her husband and child again to say a temporary goodbye after the rescue, though. The comedown back into goblin form might be more depressing than the temporary transformation was worth.

I don't think True Polymorph is what she's wanting. True Polymorph can actually be dispelled. (Though Matt could ignore that rule I guess.) She is obviously banking on Caleb becoming strong enough to do something, but I think it's bigger than that. I personally think she's hoping he learns Wish.

Also on a related note. Caleb's plan has been hinted at to be pretty big in scope, reality altering even. Liam stated on talks this week that Caleb is "...at odds with everybody with the thing he wants. And he'll either do it, or realize he shouldn't do it..." and that is super interesting to me.
 
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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I started rendering this a bit before remembering "What am I doing? I didn't even like this character" lol. Probably as far as I'll take dear old Molly.
MQg9vpA.png

I'm sure Taliesin knew he was making artist bait when he made him.
Also, Disguise Self is only visual, so Nott would still have her goblin voice. I don't think Matt brought that up last time, maybe Nott is a good voice actor on the side.
It would be kind of hilarious if Veth's voice was exactly the same as Nott's.
 

Mewzard

Member
Feb 4, 2018
3,450
Feels like Wish might be the best bet to get exactly what Nott wants (fully and truly returning to what she was)...though I'd love to see it come with some realization that Goblins aren't inherently evil, we'll see if that ever happens.
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,232
I've had the impression that Caleb is interested in shifting time, perhaps backwards, to "fix" mistakes he or others made, so perhaps Nott is hoping he can alter her past also. But that's just my theory.
 

Reinhard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,601
He's got so much good fan art considering he was only interesting for the first episode.
A big problem with Molly was Taliesin picked a combat-focused class that wasn't good for roleplay and wasn't very good at combat either - was supposed to be a glass cannon but Ghostslayer dual wield just seems rather gimped as the damage was mediocre and the drawbacks huge. Another Blood Hunter subclass would have worked much better or better yet a School of Sword Bard, perfect carnie with display of sword skills, lots of options to help control the battlefield with spells and defensive sword moves, and lots of out of combat skill possibilities. Just don't have him be a singing bard so you don't have to compete with Sam from the previous campaign and it would have worked out great.
 

Belfast

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,882
A lot of the stuff about what Nott wants to do in terms of becoming Veth again seems like a whole lot of metagaming (how can we retrofit a spell in the rulebook to do what we think a character wants?), when the characters have no idea what the true extent of magic is within the world. In doesn't matter whether or not its possible, the drama comes from the characters *believing* it is possible (or the fallout from realizing that a certain future and happy ending can never be).
 

Nazo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,830
I really hope they talk to their new Wizard friend about Nott's whole goblin situation. Because a casting of true polymorph might solve her problems rather easily...

Hell, eventually Caleb will potentially have accesses that to spell in later levels.
 
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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I don't think True Polymorph is what she's wanting. True Polymorph can actually be dispelled. (Though Matt could ignore that rule I guess.) She is obviously banking on Caleb becoming strong enough to do something, but I think it's bigger than that. I personally think she's hoping he learns Wish.

Also on a related note. Caleb's plan has been hinted at to be pretty big in scope, reality altering even. Liam stated on talks this week that Caleb is "...at odds with everybody with the thing he wants. And he'll either do it, or realize he shouldn't do it..." and that is super interesting to me.
I feel like Caleb wants straight-up time travel magic, which seems to be the whole deal with Dunamancy.

I'm not sure if Nott or even Caleb really know the logistics of what spell would be used for either of them. I look forward to the dramatic drawbacks and downsides of whatever it is they attempt.
A big problem with Molly was Taliesin picked a combat-focused class that wasn't good for roleplay and wasn't very good at combat either - was supposed to be a glass cannon but Ghostslayer dual wield just seems rather gimped as the damage was mediocre and the drawbacks huge. Another Blood Hunter subclass would have worked much better or better yet a School of Sword Bard, perfect carnie with display of sword skills, lots of options to help control the battlefield with spells and defensive sword moves, and lots of out of combat skill possibilities. Just don't have him be a singing bard so you don't have to compete with Sam from the previous campaign and it would have worked out great.
Molly would have been fine as a subpar character mechanically if he had an interesting personality. Unfortunately, he was undefined morally, had no backstory because of amnesia, had a very slippery accent, wasn't a particularly strong melee fighter and Taliesin also kept him far away from combat all the time anyway because he was used to playing Percy. His most interesting and characterizing ability of talking shit in Infernal to inflict damage also never worked because of his stats. There was just no there there in any part of his character other than a fun design; everything about Molly was unfocused. Taliesin wanted to play like three or four different archetypes, but didn't spec for any of them.

If I had no context, between the two characters, I would guess that Caduceus was the character he was thinking about for months while Molly was the one he came up with in a week.
 

Lexad

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,046
I feel like Caleb wants straight-up time travel magic, which seems to be the whole deal with Dunamancy.

I'm not sure if Nott or even Caleb really know the logistics of what spell would be used for either of them. I look forward to the dramatic drawbacks and downsides of whatever it is they attempt.

Molly would have been fine as a subpar character mechanically if he had an interesting personality. Unfortunately, he was undefined morally, had no backstory because of amnesia, had a very slippery accent, wasn't a particularly strong melee fighter and Taliesin also kept him far away from combat all the time anyway because he was used to playing Percy. His most interesting and characterizing ability of talking shit in Infernal to inflict damage also never worked because of his stats. There was just no there there in any part of his character other than a fun design; everything about Molly was unfocused. Taliesin wanted to play like three or four different archetypes, but didn't spec for any of them.

If I had no context, between the two characters, I would guess that Caduceus was the character he was thinking about for months while Molly was the one he came up with in a week.

Right? Caduceus is so much more fleshed out. Sadly all of the character was hidden behind an amnesia wall and we never got to that juicy stuff.
 

Brashnir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,236
Right? Caduceus is so much more fleshed out. Sadly all of the character was hidden behind an amnesia wall and we never got to that juicy stuff.

I'm not sure if the difference is that Caduceus is more fleshed out - I think the opposite, actually. I think Molly had a big, complicated backstory, and a lot of incongruous parts, as others have mentioned, while Caduceus has a very simple concept of a laid-back tea-brewing grave keeper. I think it also helps that Taliesin has a tendency to lean in the direction of grimdark characters, while Caduceus is the complete opposite of that. He's a Cleric of the Bob Ross Domain. I think that gives Taliesin a distinct, if simple, pillar to fall back on when in doubt about how Caduceus would act in a situation

Honestly, I think that's advice that anybody getting into roleplaying and wanting to improve should take. Make a character with a simple fall-back emotion or motivation that you can lean on when you're unsure how the character would act. You can add in complications, but having a character who is centered makes it a lot easier to play an interesting character at the table who isn't just you with a stat block.
 

Lexad

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,046
I'm not sure if the difference is that Caduceus is more fleshed out - I think the opposite, actually. I think Molly had a big, complicated backstory, and a lot of incongruous parts, as others have mentioned, while Caduceus has a very simple concept of a laid-back tea-brewing grave keeper. I think it also helps that Taliesin has a tendency to lean in the direction of grimdark characters, while Caduceus is the complete opposite of that. He's a Cleric of the Bob Ross Domain. I think that gives Taliesin a distinct, if simple, pillar to fall back on when in doubt about how Caduceus would act in a situation

Honestly, I think that's advice that anybody getting into roleplaying and wanting to improve should take. Make a character with a simple fall-back emotion or motivation that you can lean on when you're unsure how the character would act. You can add in complications, but having a character who is centered makes it a lot easier to play an interesting character at the table who isn't just you with a stat block.
Should have clarified, more fleshed out as a character in his interactions with the party. I have no doubt he had a super fleshed out background for Molly, but we never really got to see it.
 
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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
Possibly useful if we need to ban anybody from the thread:
ZK5mGSN.png

Right? Caduceus is so much more fleshed out. Sadly all of the character was hidden behind an amnesia wall and we never got to that juicy stuff.
My theory is that he was a member of the cult worshipping that giant purple phoenix that was on the mural with Uk'atoa and the giant worm (the "crawling king" that was mentioned earlier in the campaign most likely). So we might get some of his backstory tangentially if that entity comes into the campaign later on or if they interact with The Gentleman's blood priest more.
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,232
I'm not sure if the difference is that Caduceus is more fleshed out - I think the opposite, actually. I think Molly had a big, complicated backstory, and a lot of incongruous parts, as others have mentioned, while Caduceus has a very simple concept of a laid-back tea-brewing grave keeper. I think it also helps that Taliesin has a tendency to lean in the direction of grimdark characters, while Caduceus is the complete opposite of that. He's a Cleric of the Bob Ross Domain. I think that gives Taliesin a distinct, if simple, pillar to fall back on when in doubt about how Caduceus would act in a situation

In effect, Caduceus has become the Grog of this campaign. A grounding and centering force in the party and for the viewers.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,238
Toronto
A lot of the stuff about what Nott wants to do in terms of becoming Veth again seems like a whole lot of metagaming (how can we retrofit a spell in the rulebook to do what we think a character wants?), when the characters have no idea what the true extent of magic is within the world. In doesn't matter whether or not its possible, the drama comes from the characters *believing* it is possible (or the fallout from realizing that a certain future and happy ending can never be).

Maybe in a usual dnd world. But we're forgetting that Exandria is extremely high magic with mages guilds around just every corner. In such a world, your average everyday peasant is going to know a lot more about magic and its current limitations than a peasant in a traditional dnd world where it is more limited. Even if they don't know the full extent, because they won't. They will have a general idea of how powerful mages are and the feats they can achieve just based off of the stories which are going to be frequently flying around through town cryers.

In fact, it's probably more a situation where they know it's possible, but they just don't know how much work it takes to get that powerful.
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,232
I hope they keep in mind that they need a low intellect character for the next campaign to keep them grounded.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic in reference to my post, but what I mean by "grounded" is having someone who is on an even keel, not caught up in the melodrama of the group, not overly mysterious, just someone the audience can kind of relate to and find some normalcy and calm in. Also both provide a bit of lightheartedness and comedy to counter the angst of the rest.
 
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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I don't know if you're being sarcastic in reference to my post, but what I mean by "grounded" is having someone who is on an even keel, not caught up in the melodrama of the group, not overly mysterious, just someone the audience can kind of relate to and find some normalcy and calm in. Also both provide a bit of lightheartedness and comedy to counter the angst of the rest.
I was just noting that the two grounding characters of their parties have both had low intelligence scores. I agree with your post. I should have said Intelligence so it was clear I was referring to the stat.

It definitely helps to have a character like that, especially since everyone was lying and scheming for quite a while in campaign 2. Yasha (another low intelligence score, grounded, straightforward character) would probably serve that role if she were around enough. I don't think the low intelligence stat is necessary to play that role in the party, but it seems to be a trend with how this group of players role plays that.
 

modestb

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 24, 2019
1,126
So apparently the rumor mill is saying that CR will officially depart from Geek & Sundry in a week or two?

The unexplained break next week + the crew saying that the livestream won't come out "until sometime mid-Feb".. This will be interesting to see how it all plays out if true.

P.S. Deborah Ann Woll's DND show was on Alpha last night and it was excellent. If you have a sub there be sure to check it out
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,238
Toronto
So apparently the rumor mill is saying that CR will officially depart from Geek & Sundry in a week or two?

The unexplained break next week + the crew saying that the livestream won't come out "until sometime mid-Feb".. This will be interesting to see how it all plays out if true.

P.S. Deborah Ann Woll's DND show was on Alpha last night and it was excellent. If you have a sub there be sure to check it out
I hope this is true. I don't really care too much for the G&S stuff, but I'm watching quite a bit of the Critical Role stuff. So I'd be nice if they got control over their stream back.

Especially since business wise you can tell G&S is seeing the writing on the wall with their streaming rights and are getting a new DnD show up and running to replace CR
 

UnknownSpirit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,150
So apparently the rumor mill is saying that CR will officially depart from Geek & Sundry in a week or two?

The unexplained break next week + the crew saying that the livestream won't come out "until sometime mid-Feb".. This will be interesting to see how it all plays out if true.

P.S. Deborah Ann Woll's DND show was on Alpha last night and it was excellent. If you have a sub there be sure to check it out

Wouldn't be shocked. Had a feeling they were going to split when they went and got their own offices/studio.

They have gotten so large that I think they want to try their own thing at this point. I remember saying something somewhere that they were gonna use Geek and Sunday's backbone until they built their own.

Fine with me, I'm not a huge fan of G&Ss stuff, I usually only watch their channel for Critical Role.
 

Lexad

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,046
Watching the episode now. Slow is such a clutch spell against multi attacking creatures. I have frustrated my DM with it as well.
 
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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
It makes sense that they would be finally fully cutting ties. The thing with the live show and last week's announcement of a week off were conspicuously light on details in a way that screams contract stuff.

We'll never know, but it would be interesting to know what the Critical Role and Geek & Sundry contract looked like. This delayed decoupling has been low key simmering in the background for a while now.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,860
Looking purely on views, if you remove the CR VOD on G&S, CR's Youtube is probably making more views per week. To me, G&S is slowly dying and CR and maybe the new Relics & Rarities (haven't seen yet, don't have Alpha) are their only saving grace. So it seems a logical move for the crew to get everything back in house.

And with a bit of luck, that may give us Youtube VODs for Talks. I would like that.
 

Lexad

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,046
Looking purely on views, if you remove the CR VOD on G&S, CR's Youtube is probably making more views per week. To me, G&S is slowly dying and CR and maybe the new Relics & Rarities (haven't seen yet, don't have Alpha) are their only saving grace. So it seems a logical move for the crew to get everything back in house.

And with a bit of luck, that may give us Youtube VODs for Talks. I would like that.
My hope is for talks to go the podcast route. easy to forget about when it doesn't show up in my feed.
 

sharbhund

Member
Oct 28, 2017
160
Looking purely on views, if you remove the CR VOD on G&S, CR's Youtube is probably making more views per week. To me, G&S is slowly dying and CR and maybe the new Relics & Rarities (haven't seen yet, don't have Alpha) are their only saving grace. So it seems a logical move for the crew to get everything back in house.

And with a bit of luck, that may give us Youtube VODs for Talks. I would like that.
Nearly all of Talks Machina (including After Dark) has been recently uploaded to Youtube. You can find the links to it on critrole.com.
 
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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
Oh ! Did not know that ! Why did they made them private ? It would make as much view if not more than the rest of the G&S stuff. Weird decision.

But thanks ! Now i have more stuff to listen while at work. ;)
It's been private since that playlist was uploaded last week.

More stuff that feels like contracts/behind the scenes drama.
 

Jay Shadow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,606
Oh ! Did not know that ! Why did they made them private ? It would make as much view if not more than the rest of the G&S stuff. Weird decision.
They're linked to on the Critical Role website. They used to do that with the campaign, where it would be private for a couple days but linked to from the Critical Role Geek and Sundry page.

At this point though, I personally wouldn't want 100+ videos to suddenly show up in my youtube subscriptions. That's usually a recipe for me unsubscribing.
 

PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,313
The break without a reason is weird. I wonder why you can't talk about this stuff. It just makes it more awkward.
 

Rygar 8Bit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,871
Site-15
Looking purely on views, if you remove the CR VOD on G&S, CR's Youtube is probably making more views per week. To me, G&S is slowly dying and CR and maybe the new Relics & Rarities (haven't seen yet, don't have Alpha) are their only saving grace. So it seems a logical move for the crew to get everything back in house.

And with a bit of luck, that may give us Youtube VODs for Talks. I would like that.

Relics and Rarities is alright same for LA by Night.
 

Wunder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,793
Hello, I missed most of the episode from last week - is it worth going back to watch it or should I just watch the live episode tomorrow?
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Did anyone watch Matt Colvilles new D&D stream last night? Definitely a different style from Critical Role but I enjoyed it! Also Matt Mercer and Liam showed up in the chat.
I watched it some but I didn't find it all that engaging because people kept talking over each other. That type of thing is fine for a home game but on stream they should be a bit more conscious of giving each other room and waiting for their turn. Now you have, like, two one-on-one discussions going on at the same time and occasionally even a fifth & sixth person chiming in and it just turns into such muddled chatter that at least I personally have a hard time focus on what is happening and as such I kind of tune out.
 
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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
The more actual play podcasts and shows I've tried, the more I realize that CR is a really special combination of players and their playstyle that can't be replicated. At least for me, everything else pales in comparison.
Hello, I missed most of the episode from last week - is it worth going back to watch it or should I just watch the live episode tomorrow?
Reading this made me remember there's no episode tonight, and then made me sad.
 

Wunder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,793
The more actual play podcasts and shows I've tried, the more I realize that CR is a really special combination of players and their playstyle that can't be replicated. At least for me, everything else pales in comparison.

Reading this made me remember there's no episode tonight, and then made me sad.

Same, but it also took me quite a bit to fully embrace Campaign 1. There were a lot of small things that annoyed me greatly, and a couple of players that I just couldn't ignore. C2 has been great from the get go though.
 
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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I think I'll put off Matt Colville's show until I'm specifically in the mood for it. I've watched some of his youtube videos, and depending on my mood he's either delightful and knowledgable or a didactic bore, so i want to give his show the benefit of a good mood.

Sam has a really cool wife, by the way. Her between the Sheets interview was good.
Same, but it also took me quite a bit to fully embrace Campaign 1. There were a lot of small things that annoyed me greatly, and a couple of players that I just couldn't ignore. C2 has been great from the get go though.
The player that was putting me off from campaign 1 ended up leaving around when I was getting fed up. I started watching when there was a 50-something backlog in campaign 1, so it almost felt like I willed that to happen in real time.

Over the course of a few days when i was binging the show:

"I'm getting sick of this guy's behavior. It's making things awkward."

"Oh, he's off this week? Nice"

"Oh he's gone for good? Did I accidentally wish him into the cornfield?"

Around the Whitestone arc, Critical Role really snapped into place and has maintained a very high quality ever since. Even when I complain about slow episodes, or weird character choices, this show is in another league from everything else like it.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
I've liked Geek & Sundry's Star Trek RPG and the currently running Vampire the Masquerade is pretty good too. The GM is a bit dry but he can be pretty funny.

Sagas of Sundry, the first one, was really fun too. Still have to check out the second one.
 

Jay Shadow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,606
Geek and Sundry is airing Relics and Rarities in CR's place tonight. Currently doing a Q&A about it that I just found out about when it was almost over.
 

Boat Times

Made the Grade
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,565
Colville's show is DEFINITELY different from CR. Now I don't have any other experience with live play games outside of CR (and now the episode and a half I've watched of Colvilles) but his reminds me more of what it probably looks like to watch me and my friends play. I mean, it's a bit smoother I'm sure but all and all it feels like a regular game of DnD, but there's a DM in the chair who is far better than me. While watching I noticed a lot of cool things that I thought 'Oh, I could use that mechanic in my game" or something similar. When I watch CR it's more like I'm watching a show, a spectacle. I'm more in awe of the story and their acting prowess. They tick different boxes for me. Of course there's only been two episodes of Colville's show, so who knows how it could go.

Speaking of DM's far better than me, really cool to see Mercer's session notes. I'm actually kinda happy in that they look similar to mine (but with far better descriptions, which just gives me something to look at improving on). I'd like to see his notes for a city episode, or one that isn't quite as straight forward as going down a tunnel one way. Those are the sessions that always give me the most trouble prepping for, when they are really open ended.