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Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,157
NYC
Same. I really expected something more from Matt with Uk'otoa than generic underwater monster that immediately punishes their followers for veering away and questioning their monosyllabic orders.
I wouldn't be too surprised if part of the frustration is stemming from the fact that they learned about Uk'otoa super early in the campaign, all things considered. Warlock pacts work best (imo) if the patron is either a large, unknown presence for a long period of time or if they're an absolute constant nuisance. Keeping it in the middle just isn't all that entertaining or fun in the long term.

It just feels like Uk'otoa's orders were meant to be something that was explored in the long term, with the group figuring out what exactly that meant when taking action meant do or die. Not don't do it, ignore it, and hope for the best.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,291
Nottingham, UK
I'm still disappointed that Uk'atoa took Fjord's powers away for like 2 hours.

If he'd done it for one session with some combat and really showed how reliant he is on those powers to survive the shit the M9 gets up to, I think it would have been much more effective. Then the Wildmother showing up would have felt even more like a life raft in the middle of the desert.

It's not like this is a home game meeting once every month or two. This is a professional, role play heavy game that plays 3-4 hours every week, can't we drop the "oh but that might not be fun for the player for one session" reasoning? It really limits what Matt can do with the narrative and makes it feel extra game-y when repercussions are always weighed with how much fun they would be. it probably wasn't much fun for Ashley when she betrayed the party and went to the dark side for the majority of a session, but it was good for the story.

I guess there's still a chance Uk'otoa goes for the stick rather than the carrot when he contacts Fjord again.
Yep, should have been at a time when they had combat and/or where other characters could see the effect and really question things

If my celestial warlock player allows or is involved in evil things through the other party I will have to make sure he's aware of consequences. It's unfortunate for him in that way as everyone else is basically CN and he's the only one with a god/godlike entity - no clerics, no other warlocks, no monks, no paladins, etc

The necromancer in the party will end up pushing the issue eventually. He's far too keen to reanimate the dead and summon zombies/skeletons, if he extends that to reanimate innocents I'll have to intervene
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
I'm still disappointed that Uk'atoa took Fjord's powers away for like 2 hours.

If he'd done it for one session with some combat and really showed how reliant he is on those powers to survive the shit the M9 gets up to, I think it would have been much more effective. Then the Wildmother showing up would have felt even more like a life raft in the middle of the desert.

It's not like this is a home game meeting once every month or two. This is a professional, role play heavy game that plays 3-4 hours every week, can't we drop the "oh but that might not be fun for the player for one session" reasoning? It really limits what Matt can do with the narrative and makes it feel extra game-y when repercussions are always weighed with how much fun they would be. it probably wasn't much fun for Ashley when she betrayed the party and went to the dark side for the majority of a session, but it was good for the story.

I guess there's still a chance Uk'otoa goes for the stick rather than the carrot when he contacts Fjord again.

I don't know if having it happen during combat would be best, mostly because I fear it would get someone else's character killed, and then the fanbase would probably turn feral. Still, the idea of Fjord's powers publicly failing could be really appealing. It could be done as simply as having one of his illusions drop suddenly.

Having Fjord have to openly confess the full extent of his patrons torments, could be a great moment for the group as a whole. The character struggles with being emotionally vulnerable, and this would be a good way to bypass that.

The necromancer in the party will end up pushing the issue eventually. He's far too keen to reanimate the dead and summon zombies/skeletons, if he extends that to reanimate innocents I'll have to intervene

This might be a little OT, so I'm sorry but I have a slight question about this. In a setting like D&D, where gods are real, and the soul and afterlives are known to exist, what moral value does a body have? Whatever makes a person a person has already left for whatever afterlife they have earned, and the body is just meat and bone. At worst it seems possibly disrespectful, but mostly seems like a morally neutral act, like bringing plants or earth or any other inanimate objects alive to fight your enemy.

I mean absolutely no disrespect, or to challenge how you are managing your game, it is more just a general moral question about how necromancy is regarded in these fantasy settings. I truly mean no offense, and am sorry it this question seems rude.
 
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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I don't know if having it happen during combat would be best, mostly because I fear it would get someone else's character killed, and then the fanbase would probably turn feral. Still, the idea of Fjord's powers publicly failing could be really appealing. It could be done as simply as having one of his illusions drop suddenly.

Having Fjord have to openly confess the full extent of his patrons torments, could be a great moment for the group as a whole. The character struggles with being emotionally vulnerable, and this would be a good way to bypass that.
I suppose that's a risk, but it wouldn't have to be a boss fight or anything. Just an average mob that would require Fjord to hide behind the group while they cleaned up. I guess he could still bluff in that case and not be exposed unless the others really pushed the matter, but something out in the open at least increases the odds of everyone being on the same page about his whole deal.

I think a lot of the audience wants Fjord to open up more, and the rest of the players have to really tiptoe up to the meta knowledge line just to get him to divulge any character information at all. Which I think could work fine for a character, it's just the part about them all being 2/3 of the way to releasing an eldritch demigod for him—seemingly more out of inertia than desire—that draws attention to his indirectness. It's like that feeling when watching a sitcom plot and wondering "Why is nobody talking about anything? All of this could be solved if people just talked to each other at all"
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
I suppose that's a risk, but it wouldn't have to be a boss fight or anything. Just an average mob that would require Fjord to hide behind the group while they cleaned up. I guess he could still bluff in that case and not be exposed unless the others really pushed the matter, but something out in the open at least increases the odds of everyone being on the same page about his whole deal.

I think a lot of the audience wants Fjord to open up more, and the rest of the players have to really tiptoe up to the meta knowledge line just to get him to divulge any character information at all. Which I think could work fine for a character, it's just the part about them all being 2/3 of the way to releasing an eldritch demigod for him—seemingly more out of inertia than desire—that draws attention to his indirectness. It's like that feeling when watching a sitcom plot and wondering "Why is nobody talking about anything? All of this could be solved if people just talked to each other at all"

I see how having this happen in a small fight would be one of the better ways to expose Fjord's issues. Right now all I can think is how great it would be to see those loser bandits from back in the Empire attack the group again, and have Fjord actually have to struggle against them.

I kind of have hope that Fjord's interactions with Cad will help bring the truth out. Fjord's charisma makes lying pretty easy, and Jester has her own blindspots towards him, but Cad can catch Fjord's lies, and can spot him when he has his weird dreams. I really liked that Cad forced Fjord to admit that Uk'otoa was getting more violent in his dreams back in the city of Beasts. I feel like now that Fjord is interacting with Cad more, maybe he will be pressured to be more honest. If anyone is going to encourage honest communication in this group it is probably going to be Caduceus.
 
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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I see how having this happen in a small fight would be one of the better ways to expose Fjord's issues. Right now all I can think is how great it would be to see those loser bandits from back in the Empire attack the group again, and have Fjord actually have to struggle against them.

I kind of have hope that Fjord's interactions with Cad will help bring the truth out. Fjord's charisma makes lying pretty easy, and Jester has her own blindspots towards him, but Cad can catch Fjord's lies, and can spot him when he has his weird dreams. I really liked that Cad forced Fjord to admit that Uk'otoa was getting more violent in his dreams back in the city of Beasts. I feel like now that Fjord is interacting with Cad more, maybe he will be pressured to be more honest. If anyone is going to encourage honest communication in this group it is probably going to be Caduceus.
That would be a fun callback. One guy still doesn't have pants for some reason, lol

Caduceus and the wildmother are definitely good influences on Fjord. Hopefully he doesn't disappoint them, or else Cad may have to raise his voice again 😱
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
Caduceus and the wildmother are definitely good influences on Fjord. Hopefully he doesn't disappoint them, or else Cad may have to raise his voice again 😱

That was such a great moment. Taliesin has really been killing it the last few sessions. Also it was amazing to see how much Matt hate Sam's slide whistle. He has so much patience with this group, but the whistle was just a step too far.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,291
Nottingham, UK
I don't know if having it happen during combat would be best, mostly because I fear it would get someone else's character killed, and then the fanbase would probably turn feral. Still, the idea of Fjord's powers publicly failing could be really appealing. It could be done as simply as having one of his illusions drop suddenly.

Having Fjord have to openly confess the full extent of his patrons torments, could be a great moment for the group as a whole. The character struggles with being emotionally vulnerable, and this would be a good way to bypass that.



This might be a little OT, so I'm sorry but I have a slight question about this. In a setting like D&D, where gods are real, and the soul and afterlives are known to exist, what moral value does a body have? Whatever makes a person a person has already left for whatever afterlife they have earned, and the body is just meat and bone. At worst it seems possibly disrespectful, but mostly seems like a morally neutral act, like bringing plants or earth or any other inanimate objects alive to fight your enemy.

I mean absolutely no disrespect, or to challenge how you are managing your game, it is more just a general moral question about how necromancy is regarded in these fantasy settings. I truly mean no offense, and am sorry it this question seems rude.
Oh for sure, and I've rationalised it as such. I assured my necromancer that necromancy isn't inherently evil and shouldn't have a problem generally. If he starts reanimating dead children or something though, or through killing innocents in order to reanimate then it seems to me to be questionable. The other issue being that the celestial warlock doesn't necessarily understand how the necromancy works either, it could appear to beyond what he is comfortable with. I'd like them to have to address it in game, as one of a few opportunities for the group to consider their moral character as I don't think they've thought too deeply about where they lie in terms of good and evil (this is a first campaign for all of us and we are only a year in)

The necromancy was one example of where their moral fibres could create a problem for the good aligned warlock - though I suppose you right in that a communion with his patron might help clear things up and restate the boundaries of what is expected of him and his allies
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
Oh for sure, and I've rationalised it as such. I assured my necromancer that necromancy isn't inherently evil and shouldn't have a problem generally. If he starts reanimating dead children or something though, or through killing innocents in order to reanimate then it seems to me to be questionable. The other issue being that the celestial warlock doesn't necessarily understand how the necromancy works either, it could appear to beyond what he is comfortable with. I'd like them to have to address it in game, as one of a few opportunities for the group to consider their moral character as I don't think they've thought too deeply about where they lie in terms of good and evil (this is a first campaign for all of us and we are only a year in)

The necromancy was one example of where their moral fibres could create a problem for the good aligned warlock - though I suppose you right in that a communion with his patron might help clear things up and restate the boundaries of what is expected of him and his allies

I think that's pretty cool. The idea of different classes being uncomfortable with each other's magic is an interesting idea. I hope it leads to a lot of fun for your game.

It could be really interesting if the Wildmother or even just Cad challenge some of Fjord's go to abilities. A new patron means new standards for behavior. Fjord being challenged to change his nature, and to walk closer to a more classic good alignment could be exactly what the character needs.
 

Boat Times

Made the Grade
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,565
This might be a little OT, so I'm sorry but I have a slight question about this. In a setting like D&D, where gods are real, and the soul and afterlives are known to exist, what moral value does a body have? Whatever makes a person a person has already left for whatever afterlife they have earned, and the body is just meat and bone. At worst it seems possibly disrespectful, but mostly seems like a morally neutral act, like bringing plants or earth or any other inanimate objects alive to fight your enemy.

I mean absolutely no disrespect, or to challenge how you are managing your game, it is more just a general moral question about how necromancy is regarded in these fantasy settings. I truly mean no offense, and am sorry it this question seems rude.

Sounds like something a necromancer would say.

But yeah, obviously that would depend upon the world you are creating, In fact, it would very much depend on different cultures views on death, much like the real world. Some races believe in different gods, they have different views on death. There's no way an elf, for instance, has the same views on life and death as a human. Elves can live for thousands of years. Maybe they aren't too keen on something using their vessel that they had for thousands of years, or even hundreds. Whereas a shorter lived and perhaps more utilitarian race would see nothing wrong or evil about necromancy.

There's certainly a reason you can have access to necromancy magic in the core rulebook. They don't hide it off as a "villain" subclass in the DMG, like they do with an Oathbreaker paladin and a Death domain cleric.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,291
Nottingham, UK
I've seen a good case made for the enchantment school being the true evil of the magic schools in all honesty, given its manipulating people's minds and removing their agency

But like others have said it's all down to how something is flavoured. I try my best to make sure my players remember they are in a functioning world not entirely removed from ours. They still don't know yet the consequences of their actions over the last few weeks/months of play, sure will be interesting when they do
 

TheCthultist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,450
New York
Halfway caught up with the Mighty Nein campaign. Slow going, but I'm loving every second of this. Was expecting to burn out by now, but it doesn't seem to be wearing out its welcome in the least as of yet.

Finished up the initial crew's soul calibur models. They're all uploaded, so if anyone has the game on ps4 you can try to find them in that mess of a character sharing system they have on there.
 

SilentMike03

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,083
A question on Talks this week called out Caleb (and Cad) acting as a voice of reason this past week and it really got me to reflect on how much I appreciate how Liam's been playing him since they got to Xhorhas. M9 can seem pretty flakey as a group, so I really enjoy Caleb looking at the long game and getting the group to commit.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
A question on Talks this week called out Caleb (and Cad) acting as a voice of reason this past week and it really got me to reflect on how much I appreciate how Liam's been playing him since they got to Xhorhas. M9 can seem pretty flakey as a group, so I really enjoy Caleb looking at the long game and getting the group to commit.

Caleb really has been invaluable at keeping a mostly rational head. In a group like the M9 it is kind of invaluable. Though I do think he is probably going to snap the second Trent starts to make his presence known. I really can't tell if he is going to be overwhelmed with fear, or rage. His interaction with the prisoner was easily one of the more interesting interactions in the last episode, and I can't wait to see more like it.
 
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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
So what's the deal this week? I'm having trouble remembering the last show for some reason.

Dropping off Yeza in Nicodranas, and then heading to the kiln?
 

SilentMike03

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,083
Dealing with whatever shit Dairon is about to start
I reallllllllllllllllllly hope this isn't something Beau can just talk her way out of and it causes a real rift. Like Dairon accuses Beau of having compromised judgment and tries to send her back to the Cobalt Soul. And then Beau has to pick: her mentor or her friends. Give me the dramaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
I reallllllllllllllllllly hope this isn't something Beau can just talk her way out of and it causes a real rift. Like Dairon accuses Beau of having compromised judgment and tries to send her back to the Cobalt Soul. And then Beau has to pick: her mentor or her friends. Give me the dramaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Dairon denouncing her, and kicking her out of the Cobalt Soul would be perfect. Beau has been due for a character arc, and her spiraling because she has been abandoned by her mentor could be amazing. I do hope Dairon at least listens to them about the chosen of the Crawling King. The Cobalt Soul would be really useful to research what these things are and where they might be hidden.
 
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Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I'm still not really sure what the deal is with the level of intimacy between Beau and Dairon. Does Beau just have a crush on her teacher? Are the feelings mutual?

We've only really gotten Beau's POV, so it would be interesting to see more of Dairon's read on things.
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,236
I don't really know why Beau is pushing back so hard. She's not in a good place with Dairon, she needs to give her some peace offering.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
Oh god the gnomes are building aerial bombers, we've come a long way from Percy's pistols. I love seeing the escalation of technology in this setting.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
Finally Fjord asks someone to get information on his patron. Super small step, but it is a good one.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
Bless Cad for making these pathological liars tell everyone about the Laughing Hand. They need as many people researching this as possible.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,238
Toronto
I forget. Jesters Mom doesn't own the Lavish Chateau, right? She's just their best employee and gets a ton of perks given to her to keep her there... correct?
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,238
Toronto
Yeah, as far as I know the Ruby is the main reason people go there, but she doesn't own it. She probably has a lot of sway though.

I was just wondering because they are always just sending people to the Lavish Chateau with them and their guests always just given free lodging, and pretty much whatever else it is they need. That's a lot of sway to have over the establishment.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
I was just wondering because they are always just sending people to the Lavish Chateau with them and their guests always just given free lodging, and pretty much whatever else it is they need. That's a lot of sway to have over the establishment.

Yeah, I'm just assuming she also has a fair amount of personal wealth, so she can pay to keep a few rooms for a while. I'm not exactly sure how much power a courtesan would have in a case like this.