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ScatheZombie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
398
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
5,247
Let's be real here. If the majority of ERA really cared about the rights and health of those working behind the scenes, the pinned thread about Uyghur Muslims being forced to manufacture products for Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft would've gotten a lot more attention.

And yet that thread is a week old and it barely has many posts as this one.

Yeah, it's kind of obvious.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
"If I give money to this company that is exploiting workers, the money will trickle down to the exploited workers."

Everyone sees the flaw in that logic, right? They're not exploiting their workers because it's the only way to make ends meet and they're all in this together. Exploiting their workers is a business strategy. A company that is exploiting their workers isn't giving sales-based royalties to those workers. Giving them more money in the hopes that they'll be nicer to their employees just reinforces that what they're currently doing is working.

It;s almost the same as people who think that buying a used copy is somehow okay just because you didn't give them the money. You're still enjoying the fruits of exploited labour despite protesting against it.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I gotta give it to you, you're presenting a slightly more impressive argument than the last guy, but your passive aggression makes it fall flat. All I'm saying is that people should also be mad about slave labor as much as they get mad about crunch.

I'm against both. : )

No, all your are saying (current tone policing aside) is calling people hypocrites for caring about this but not Uyghur slavery based on some heuristic, then crying when someone accuses you of doing the exact same thing using your exact same heuristic. I'm still waiting for an explanation why it's fair for you to assume people don't care about the Uyghur issue if they don't post, but it's unfair for me to assume the same of you.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
"If I give money to this company that is exploiting workers, the money will trickle down to the exploited workers."

Everyone sees the flaw in that logic, right? They're not exploiting their workers because it's the only way to make ends meet and they're all in this together. Exploiting their workers is a business strategy. A company that is exploiting their workers isn't giving sales-based royalties to those workers. Giving them more money in the hopes that they'll be nicer to their employees just reinforces that what they're currently doing is working.

Goddamnit, stop posting excellent arguments as the last post in the page. :D
 

cnorwood

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,345
These dont work, once again you would be better off attacking capitalism rather than the industries that profit off it it. There will always be new devs to take the place of burnt out ones
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Thank you for this, it's nice to have actual information from an AAA dev and puts things in perspective. Do you think there's anything at all that consumers can do to help the situation?
 

orava

Alt Account
Banned
Jun 10, 2019
1,316
This boycott will go like this

boycott1sljzh.png
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.
Thank you for providing more context and your experience. Crunch sucks but boycotts don't work, especially if some of the same folks wanting to boycott will still buy products made by slaves. Unions and employees advocacy group, government regulation are the only things I think can really help.
 

Deleted member 24021

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
4,772
User Banned (5 days): Ignoring staff post, antagonizing other members, arguing in bad faith
No, all your are saying (current tone policing aside) is calling people hypocrites for caring about this but not Uyghur slavery based on some heuristic, then crying when someone accuses you of doing the exact same thing using your exact same heuristic. I'm still waiting for an explanation why it's fair for you to assume people don't care about the Uyghur issue if they don't post, but it's unfair for me to assume the same of you.

I never even mentioned the Uyghur slavery, I'm talking about slave labor in general. And who's crying? I'm not the one that's about to pop a vein here lol
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
Claiming to join a boycott simply because you don't like ND or TLOU is lame. Apathy is worst form of boycotting if you're going to boycott.
 

ultima786

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,711
I don't really agree with this. I mean, art sometimes takes a lot of effort. No one is demanding or physically coercing employees to work on this piece of art. It's unfortunate, but they can hopefully get a more sustainable position somewhere else.
 
OP
OP
RexNovis

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,177
How about every review talks about it but I doesn't factor ito the score? I think scores are meaningless anyways, so I don't realy care.

And RexNovis, DICE is also cruch free resetera, Glassdoor.

just seeing this. Thanks! Will add to the list in the op.

I'm also considering creating a thread specifically as a resource to identify publishers and studios with their use of crunch. I might not be able to get to it today but if there's enough support for the idea I'll try and get it up sometime this weekend.
 

MrWindUpBird

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,686
After what happened with Pokemon, I have absolutely zero faith that gamers will hold to their word. This is going to result in TLoU2 selling like gangbusters, and people getting mad.
Comparing this to Pokemon is definitely the same thing. One is definitely not about workers being crunched to hospitalization compared to a bunch of man children being pissy about the lack of Pokémon in a game.
 

Fezan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,274
Boycotting any product is stupid. In this your boycott may effect more to developers than publishers. Also imagine crunch for developers who are not that famous or don't have stories written about them

Also almost all developers crunch even Indy. You have to boycott having then.
 

McArkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
128
MX
just seeing this. Thanks! Will add to the list in the op.

I'm also considering creating a thread specifically as a resource to identify publishers and studios with their use of crunch. I might not be able to get to it today but if there's enough support for the idea I'll try and get it up sometime this weekend.

I say go for it, the more people that is informed the better. And about not buying TLoU 2, I will support it, was expecting the game but maybe this small gesture will add to the voices of no crunch in the industry.
 

Vixzer

Member
Jul 29, 2019
2
User Banned (5 Days) Dismissive drive-by, ignoring the staff post
I really do not care, I will buy anyway.
 

gogosox82

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,385
It's Hypocrisy if i shout out to boycott things i'm not even interested in but won't do the same in things i'm interested. It's like people telling others to stop flying because of pollution, who then go on to drive to work everyday for commodity instead of taking the train.

That's not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy would be if OP bought the game after making this thread saying they were boycotting. It doesn't really follow that someone is a hypocrite because they said we shouldn't use airplanes because they are concerned about pollution and co2 admissions but then drives to work. They could live in a city with poor public transportation and poor city planning (very common in the usa) that makes it impossible to get to work without driving a car.
 

TsuWave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,987
Following an example from the last page and quoting this, since we apparently need this on every page. Still seeing people use Dev bonuses as a shield and ignored this statement mentioned before. From developers.

Is that confirmed for Naughty Dog though? Isn't one of the salient points in the OP the fact that there are studios which supposedly don't crunch? How do we know the bonus structure relegated to games' sales performance is the same across all studios/industry?
 

bakedpony

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,263
Can't wait to get the game. Crunch is never worth it but I feel seeing a game you slaved yourself away get amazing reviews and sales make it feel a little better.

seeing a game you slaved away on gets slammed and flops is just devastatingI would imagine.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,724
Tokyo
A boycott will not help. You know what would help though? Voting in people who believe in creating strong working Unions so the average worker can be protected. The gaming industry needs to Unionize and the best way to help them do that is get people in power who cares about such issues.
 

CaptainKashup

Banned
May 10, 2018
8,313
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Thanks for giving us some actual infos about how it all works. This should be pinned imo.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,650
That's not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy would be if OP bought the game after making this thread saying they were boycotting. It doesn't really follow that someone is a hypocrite because they said we shouldn't use airplanes because they are concerned about pollution and co2 admissions but then drives to work. They could live in a city with poor public transportation and poor city planning (very common in the usa) that makes it impossible to get to work without driving a car.

Did you read my post, or do you just skim it to then type in anger? What about "uses the car out of comodity" did you not understand?
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,176
UK
Not literally obviously, but try to imagine with everything that's been going on lately, with jobs and private lives on the line, try to imagine how a simple game can make one at least a bit happier. And TLOU is my favorite game of all time.
Have you thought about counselling, someone to talk to about your problems? It's nice to have a hobby that gives you a distraction or pleasure, but at the end of the day the problems will still be there to navigate through and others can help with that if wanting to change.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Comparing this to Pokemon is definitely the same thing. One is definitely not about workers being crunched to hospitalization compared to a bunch of man children being pissy about the lack of Pokémon in a game.

I'm not comparing this at all. Plus, this isn't the first time that gamers tried to protest a game, only to be such wimps and buy the game anyway. THAT'S the point I'm getting at.
 
Jan 11, 2018
9,653
Wasn't going to buy it anyway. I will either rent it or borrow it from my local library, as I do with most games these days. I buy maybe 3-4 retail games per year now, plus plenty of indies. Games are just too expensive these days.

I don't think boycotting works, but the whole ND situation definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm still looking forward to playing the game though.
 

PAFenix

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 21, 2019
14,665
Is that confirmed for Naughty Dog though? Isn't one of the salient points in the OP the fact that there are studios which supposedly don't crunch? How do we know the bonus structure relegated to games' sales performance is the same across all studios/industry?

It's not. Someone else on this page also had a differing story coming from a different AAA studio saying that bonuses for developers are, indeed, effected. I can totally believe that this can vary from studio to studio.

If people want to boycott for their own peace of mind, fine. If people want to buy, they shouldn't be demonized as it's ultimately not the consumer's fault. Saying that, they shouldn't be demonizing boycotters for "making it worse for developers" since.....again....not on the consumer.
 

azfaru

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,273
Don't find it comfortable to poo poo on work that lots of people have poured their blood sweat and tears to it. Feels a bit disrespectful I think. Games are art, and art is never finished, only abandoned. But then again crunch is unfair to them too.

No I don't think we have a straight answer for this but I hope companies will get to it.
 

Hubologist

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,119
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.
Thank you for this post.
 

Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,474
After reading this thread, any desire I had to play TLOU Part 2 has just evaporated:



PS4 Pro ready to play it and everything, and now POOF.
 

Deleted member 10612

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,774
Just fucking vote for people who are going to demand unions for all these big AAA studios. Nothing else will help. Not buying the game is reducing the dev's (potential) bonuses or is speeding up them getting fired cause not enough money to support a large team.

AAA is not the problem, German autocars get build by 100000 people who are all under protection regarding working time etc. Because they have a Union.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I never even mentioned the Uyghur slavery, I'm talking about slave labor in general.

Oh boy. Just when I thought it couldn't get any more embarrassingly disingenuous. :D

And who's crying? I'm not the one that's about to pop a vein here lol

Yeah, sorry but no amount of deflecting or tone policing distracts from the fact you still haven't answered why it's warranted for you to assume lack of interest from lack of posting, but it's wrong for others to do the same to you:
Do you have proof that I ignored the thread? How would you know if I lurked the thread or not? How would you know my stance on slave labor?
You don't, you're running on assumptions.
 

Dashful

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,401
Canada
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.
Interesting insight. Thanks for sharing!

In this case I wasn't going to buy the game at launch since I thought TLoU was just OK. I do plan on getting it sometime after PS5 launch because my gf really liked the story so we'll have to see how it continues.
 

m4st4

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,505
Have you thought about counselling, someone to talk to about your problems? It's nice to have a hobby that gives you a distraction or pleasure, but at the end of the day the problems will still be there to navigate through and others can help with that if wanting to change.
Uhm.. You're joking right?

No, I haven't. I have my family, I currently work online, everyone's still healthy and this one measly materialistic upcoming thing helps as well.

I will support Naughty Dog with my money, already preordered the game on PSN months ago and will probably get physical edition too.
 

Majora's Mask

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,562
You have your heart in the right place OP, but unfortunately you or me or both not buying the game is not gonna change the way ND operates. I think the average joe is probably unaware of how toxic the environment at ND is.

I had this same dilemma back with Red Dead Redemption 2. At the end of the day, what really helps is articles like the one from Kotaku that highlight the issues within ND and calling them out when possible. I would also refrain from calling them "Naughty Gods" a term that I myself have used and other people in this forum have too. There's nothing godly about treating people like shit.

And if you are still really uncomfortable with buying the game, then I encourage you to not do it.
 

Chrno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,594
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

thanks for the insight.

will be buying to support the devs!
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,954
Have you thought about counselling, someone to talk to about your problems? It's nice to have a hobby that gives you a distraction or pleasure, but at the end of the day the problems will still be there to navigate through and others can help with that if wanting to change.
You're being obnoxiously condescending here...