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Peek-a-boo!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,196
Woodbridge
Man, there really are a lot of expert engineers on Era.

Who should we trust:

A "dev", or the people in this very thread who cry 'fake lol'?

Both consoles are going to be superb, and I really hope we see get to see Crytek produce a visually stunning game just like the original Far Cry, Crysis and Ryse: Son of Rome.

What the hell are they even up to these days?

'Hunt: Showdown' is their most recent game — it was dished out a 9 from Edge this month too!
 

Wing Scarab

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,757

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,068
image0.png

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basically saying that Navi 10/14 @ 2GHz is already very barely. It's highly possibly the limit of Navi. Which means that 2.23GHz is highly likely to be beyond the sweet spot of Navi's I/V curve. So throttling is a must. Of course that's why sony implemented variable frequency.

So about variable frequency, why would it be affecting game developing so much?

Because the shared power budget often prefers GPU instead of CPU. And Sony didn't give devs the ability to control the power balance.

So, imagine you're playing a game which is both CPU and GPU hungry.
At first, the CPU might be operating at 45W 3.5GHz, and the game is smooth at the beginning, the CPU wants to draw more frames per second.
Then the GPU is in heavy duty to draw those frames, and it become a bottleneck soon. So the smart shift transfers the power balance to GPU more.
Meanwhile, the CPU is still calculating the next frame. Guess what? It become slower!
This might cause a serious variable frame time issue which is especially bad for 60hz screens.

That's where they need v sync.
So let's say we have a 16.66ms time budget for each frame. Now again, for each frame, the power needed and the power provided is out of sync. Why? Because the CPU is always calculating for the next frame, while the GPU is always calculating for the current frame. This is the parallel way to be widely used in game rendering to improve fps.

E.g. a frame needs cpu time for 16.66ms, and gpu time for 16.66ms. if it's done in serial way than it needs 33.33ms which makes a 30fps game. However if it's done in parallel way it takes only 1666+16 ms to render 100 frames, which means the game is 60fps.

So imagine a scene where the current frame requires GPU power and the next frame requires CPU power. How to distribute that power requirement? The smart shift is still very bottlenecking here and can cause a serious frame pacing issue again.

With dev's full control, they might be able to balance the power shift better when certain things happen, e.g. a smoke grenade usually destroys the performance, but they don't want the fps to be too variable, so they can limit the power balance.

Again, the variable frequency technology came out so many years ago and no game console ever used it in games, at least not without the game developers' full control. There's a reason to that.
Pretty sure the devs are in control of the clock speeds on PS5.
 

Bishop89

What Are Ya' Selling?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,668
Melbourne, Australia
Who should we trust:

A "dev", or the people in this very thread who cry 'fake lol'?

Both consoles are going to be superb, and I really hope we see get to see Crytek produce a visually stunning game just like the original Far Cry, Crysis and Ryse: Son of Rome.



'Hunt: Showdown' is their most recent game — it was dished out a 9 from Edge this month too!
Keep forgetting about that!

I think it's just because they don't seem to be so loud like they were at the start of the gen.
 

squeakywheel

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,083
Will probably buy ps5 at launch then buy the XSX a year or two later when they stop developing for the Xbone. That's if Sony's cooling solution is up to par. I don't want a repeat of RRoD and YLoD. That gen really sucked in terms of hardware failure. C'mon Sony and Microsoft. Show off the games.
 

Malcolm9

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,040
UK
Will probably buy ps5 at launch then buy the XSX a year or two later when they stop developing for the Xbone. That's if Sony's cooling solution is up to par. I don't want a repeat of RRoD and YLoD. That gen really sucked in terms of hardware failure. C'mon Sony and Microsoft. Show off the games.

Yeah, I am looking to buy a PS5 first but if they haven't found a decent cooling solution I'll wait until they do, meaning I would pick up the XSX first to play some next gen goodness.
 

rahzel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
452
I think the next generation will be the same. But towards the end at higher native resolutions, the PlayStation 5 will probably be in a little trouble, and the X-Series will be able to display more pixels.
I think XSX will push more pixels most of the time, but we're talking about less than any gen. before. Not to mention with higher pixel counts, there are diminishing returns. It will be like 3840x2160 vs 3560x2000. I don't think ANYONE could tell the difference between those two resolutions on any consumer display or viewing distance, especially with reconstruction.

I think too many people are too fixated on raw power / TF. Both systems will produce visuals almost identical. XSX games will probably have slightly better visuals most of the time, and PS5 games will probably load slightly faster... both of which won't be very noticeable to most.

What I am excited about, is that Sony are putting such a big focus on audio. Also PS5 exclusives will be able to fully take advantage of the PS5's incredibly fast I/O speeds, which also has me very excited.

In the end, it will come down to games and price for most people... like usual.
 

19thCenturyFox

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,309
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but is the dev implying that PS5 doesn't have SMT? He says Series X could have the advantage later this gen when/if devs start using SMT.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
As a network engineer I like Sony' approach, but as a software engineer (to be) I like XsX take.
Fairly excited for both.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
I think XSX will push more pixels most of the time, but we're talking about less than any gen. before. Not to mention with higher pixel counts, there are diminishing returns. It will be like 3840x2160 vs 3560x2000. I don't think ANYONE could tell the difference between those two resolutions on any consumer display or viewing distance, especially with reconstruction.

I think too many people are too fixated on raw power / TF. Both systems will produce visuals almost identical. XSX games will probably have slightly better visuals most of the time, and PS5 games will probably load slightly faster... both of which won't be very noticeable to most.

What I am excited about, is that Sony are putting such a big focus on audio. Also PS5 exclusives will be able to fully take advantage of the PS5's incredibly fast I/O speeds, which also has me very excited.

In the end, it will come down to games and price for most people... like usual.

For the res it will be 15 to 20% advantage for XSX at the dawn of the generation. It means it will be near parity most of the generation because it is easier to extract performance from PS5 than XSX.

We will know if it is true in DF, NX Gamer and VGTech first face off this fall and during the first few years of the generation.
 

Majiebeast

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,090
Why is it that everytime a developer finds something positive to say about PS5, some posters come up with a forum post,youtube comment or verge comment that says PS5 is in trouble somehow.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
Really interesting. As I've mentioned in another thread already, especially these parts sound great:
The most interesting part imho is this:

As a programmer and developer, which do you consider the best console for working and coding? PlayStation 5 or Xbox Series X?

Definitely PlayStation 5.

As a programmer, I would say that the PlayStation 5 is much better, and I don't think you can find a programmer who can outperform the PlayStation 5 from the Xbox Series X. For the Xbox, they have to put DirectX and Windows on the console, which is many years old, but for each new console that Sony builds, it also rebuilds the software and APIs in any way it wants. It is in their interest and in our interest. Because there is only one way to do everything, and theirs is the best way possible.

If I understood correctly, is Teraflops the standard for optimizing different parts of the GPU or not? Or what do these floating points mean? How would you describe it for a user who doesn't understand this information?

The problem is with the person who made these public statements that need to be explained now. This technical information does not matter to the average user and is not a measurement criterion.

A good example of this is the Xbox Series X hardware. Microsoft has split the RAMs in two. The same mistake that the Xbox One made. One part of RAM has high bandwidth and one part of RAM has low bandwidth. And obviously, encoding this console will have a story. Because the total number of things we have to put in fast RAM is so much that it will be annoying again, and if we want 4K to support it, that's another story. So there will be parts that prevent the graphics card from reaching that speed.

How have you experienced working with both consoles and how do you evaluate them?

I can't say anything right now about my own work, but I'm quoting others who have made a public statement. Developers say that the PlayStation 5 is the easiest console we've ever coded into so we can reach the console's peak performance. In terms of software, coding on the PlayStation 5 is extremely simple and has many features that leave the developer free. All in all, the PlayStation 5 is a better console.

Remember this quote from Shu last year:
"Shuhei Yoshida added that developers can't focus on making their games if they need to focus on overcoming the inherent difficulty of developing on complicated hardware. As such, Sony is striving to make it as easy as possible to develop on PlayStation hardware. Yoshida said that's what the company had in mind when making the PS4 and that's what they have in mind for the PS5.
Shuhei Yoshida also mentioned that many developers are telling Sony they never worked on a console as easy to develop on as PS5."


Looks like Mark Cerny really did a great job with the PS5. Developers are happy as hell. Now it's time for a big PS5 reveal.... after the Covid issue calms down of course....
 

c0c0suma

Banned
Jan 20, 2018
79
No he didn't. IIRC, he said the devs decide.
Regarding locked profiles, we support those on our dev kits, it can be helpful not to have variable clocks when optimising. Released PS5 games always get boosted frequencies so that they can take advantage of the additional power. ---- Cerny
Released PS5 games always get boosted frequencies. Only devkits has locked profiles.
 

Simuly

Alt-Account
Banned
Jul 8, 2019
1,281
This is a more eloquent translation on the GPUs and CU difference:

"raising the clock speed has some benefits like in memory, rasterizer, and every other part of the gpu that its efficiency depends on clock speed, things that's not related to CU count or Tflops, will work faster too. So the remaining parts of the GPU will work better than XSX. This will make the console work mostly on the 10.28 Tflops. But in XSX, since the other parts of the gpu work slower due to the lower clock speed, it actually works a lot at lower Tflops most often and reaches 12 only at ideal situations."
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,383
I think XSX will push more pixels most of the time, but we're talking about less than any gen. before. Not to mention with higher pixel counts, there are diminishing returns. It will be like 3840x2160 vs 3560x2000. I don't think ANYONE could tell the difference between those two resolutions on any consumer display or viewing distance, especially with reconstruction.

I think too many people are too fixated on raw power / TF. Both systems will produce visuals almost identical. XSX games will probably have slightly better visuals most of the time, and PS5 games will probably load slightly faster... both of which won't be very noticeable to most.

What I am excited about, is that Sony are putting such a big focus on audio. Also PS5 exclusives will be able to fully take advantage of the PS5's incredibly fast I/O speeds, which also has me very excited.

In the end, it will come down to games and price for most people... like usual.

The difference is so small for an increase in resolution and/or visuals to be worth it. It makes more sense to use the extra juice for more stable framerate instead.
 

MickZan

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,404
The sad part is that most of these console warriors are full blown adults, seeing I can't see 15 year olds having the technical baggage to discuss about this stuff. Go play some games people. Both consoles will be great and in the end the games are what matters (aside from consumer unfriendly shanenigans).
 

TsuWave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,999
Which will be bad in the long run if publishers starts to max out the system early.

Because it can lead to 3rd party publishers using Xbox Series X as the lead platform to get better looking &/or running multiplatform games in later years.

Getting to 100% of the PS5 early in the gen would mean great experiences THROUGHOUT the gen. These consoles are a substantial upgrade on their predecessors. There's no benefit to having a bunch of years of underwhelming/middling titles.

Getting to 100% of the PS5 quick won't make the 100% of the Series X much higher if/just because it takes longer to get to it.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,673
The Milky Way
When you have a more powerful PC GPU (eg 2080Ti vs 2070), it has more compute units. These are used automatically by any game to give significantly increased performance without any additional work from the developer.

So where I'm confused is why it's so difficult to efficiently deploy the extra workload to the additional compute units in a console scenario, where it isn't an issue on PC?
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,846
And usually, the people that talk details online haven't signed one meaning they don't have access to the hardware, otherwise they would be burned alive by Sony and MS.

Good luck to you, mate.
You mean good luck to the dev ? Can he quote others opinions about next gen while being under NDA ? it's really an odd predicament.
I can't say anything right now about my own work, but I'm quoting others who have made a public statement
 

c0c0suma

Banned
Jan 20, 2018
79
User Banned (permanent): Inflammatory commentary and encouraging harassment over multiple posts
Really interesting. As I've mentioned in another thread already, especially these parts sound great:
The most interesting part imho is this:

As a programmer and developer, which do you consider the best console for working and coding? PlayStation 5 or Xbox Series X?

Definitely PlayStation 5.

As a programmer, I would say that the PlayStation 5 is much better, and I don't think you can find a programmer who can outperform the PlayStation 5 from the Xbox Series X. For the Xbox, they have to put DirectX and Windows on the console, which is many years old, but for each new console that Sony builds, it also rebuilds the software and APIs in any way it wants. It is in their interest and in our interest. Because there is only one way to do everything, and theirs is the best way possible.

If I understood correctly, is Teraflops the standard for optimizing different parts of the GPU or not? Or what do these floating points mean? How would you describe it for a user who doesn't understand this information?

The problem is with the person who made these public statements that need to be explained now. This technical information does not matter to the average user and is not a measurement criterion.

A good example of this is the Xbox Series X hardware. Microsoft has split the RAMs in two. The same mistake that the Xbox One made. One part of RAM has high bandwidth and one part of RAM has low bandwidth. And obviously, encoding this console will have a story. Because the total number of things we have to put in fast RAM is so much that it will be annoying again, and if we want 4K to support it, that's another story. So there will be parts that prevent the graphics card from reaching that speed.

How have you experienced working with both consoles and how do you evaluate them?

I can't say anything right now about my own work, but I'm quoting others who have made a public statement. Developers say that the PlayStation 5 is the easiest console we've ever coded into so we can reach the console's peak performance. In terms of software, coding on the PlayStation 5 is extremely simple and has many features that leave the developer free. All in all, the PlayStation 5 is a better console.

Remember this quote from Shu last year:
"Shuhei Yoshida added that developers can't focus on making their games if they need to focus on overcoming the inherent difficulty of developing on complicated hardware. As such, Sony is striving to make it as easy as possible to develop on PlayStation hardware. Yoshida said that's what the company had in mind when making the PS4 and that's what they have in mind for the PS5.
Shuhei Yoshida also mentioned that many developers are telling Sony they never worked on a console as easy to develop on as PS5."


Looks like Mark Cerny really did a great job with the PS5. Developers are happy as hell. Now it's time for a big PS5 reveal.... after the Covid issue calms down of course....

He's speaking absolutely non sense about Xbox. And I highly doubt if he's ever touching the PS4 or PS5 dev area too because non of the bs he said matches the real world.

1. Unlike Sony's poor freebsd jail method, Xbox games don't even use Windows. It's just a kernel and basic stuff needed for running. Which means is that, it is Sony who's porting freeBSD all along, not Microsoft. Microsoft only used a few shared structures. Microsoft uses full virtual machine, which blessed the Xbox fans with full compatibility from X1 to generations beyond with no need for hardware modifications. Even if someday Microsoft completely removes Windows parts on the Xbox, the games can still run because it's not windows it's a separated virtual machine.
Btw Phil highly praised the VM team who made BC so easy for future gens.
Meanwhile it is Sony who's been limited to 36 CU due to lack of full VM capabilities.

2. Xbox only accept DX12 games now. DX11 with xbox extension was the basic form of DX12 and it's now long gone.

3. Rebuilding the API from the ground up is always a very damned option which was never welcomed by normal developers. And honestly the vast majority of developers doesn't touch much into the layer of API too.

4. Splitting the RAM into 32MB & 8GB is far away from splitting into 10 & 6GB. And PC games have been doing this from the birth of earth. You always keep on track of what your resource is and where it's at. Whether it's graphical or logical. Making such stupid argument only shows that he's either an unqualified developer or full of biased bs.

I can't really understand how this kind of developer got into Crytek.
Here's his linkedin: [Mod Edit: Link removed]
 
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elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,821
You mean good luck to the dev ? Can he quote others opinions about next gen while being under NDA ? it's really an odd predicament.

One usually can't say anything about anything when they sign an NDA. And no, one cannot quote others' opinions regarding the same NDA'ed thing.

As a general rule in the industry, if one has signed an NDA about something, that NDA governs literally everything, except usually amplifying official messaging that has been shared officially and publicly by the owners of the thing that is behind NDAs. Just that, nothing else. Oh, this tomato is red? Yes, look guys, the tomato is red! There is no mention about the taste anywhere in the official messaging, so if someone has signed an NDA, they should neither talk nor quote others about taste.
 

G_Zero

alt account
Banned
Mar 19, 2019
457
I mean, what he says about Windows and DirectX APIs holding programmers back make sense to me. PS5 is running a customized version of FreeBSD, a highly performant, lightweight UNIX-like OS, whereas Windows has always been known as a pretty annoying platform to develop for. I'd also expect a completely tailor-built graphics API(PS5) to be easier to use as well, since you won't have all sorts of legacy code and calls which aren't optimal for the hardware, which I'd expect when using an API which has to work on a ton of different hardware(DirectX). Fewer decisions to make, and less room for mistakes.

As a programmer, having worked with neither console, I would expect the PS5 to be the most pleasant development experience based on those facts alone.

Now, will that be enough to make up "the gap"? Probably not, but who knows. I don't know enough about graphics programming to say anything about more CUs vs higher clocks, but I would think XSX has the edge there.

Mods should be able to confirm me being a programmer, if anyone doubts that.
 

Alyna

Banned
Apr 3, 2020
104
Does he not have a devkit? I don't think that was brought up at all in the interview.

Considering any developer with access to the hardware is most likely under a strict NDA (as verified by the DICE developer earlier), this developer either doesn't have access to the hardware (and thus, no NDA) or should be expecting a call from both MS and Sony very soon.

I think the former is the most likely case, because most stuff that he said is based on the Road to PS5 video.
 

P40L0

Member
Jun 12, 2018
7,630
Italy
He's speaking absolutely non sense about Xbox.

1. Unlike Sony's poor jail method, Xbox games don't even use Windows. It's just a kernel and basic stuff needed for running.
2. Xbox only accept DX12 games now. DX11 with xbox extension was the basic form of DX12 and it's now long gone.
3. Rebuilding the API from the ground up is always a very damned option which was never welcomed by normal developers. And honestly the vast majority of developers doesn't touch much into the layer of API too.
4. Splitting the RAM into 32MB & 8GB is far away from splitting into 10 & 6GB. And PC games have been doing this from the birth of earth. You always keep on track of what your resource is and where it's at. Whether it's graphical or logical. Making such stupid argument only shows that he's either an unqualified developer or full of biased bs.

I can't really understand how this kind of developer got into Crytek.
Here's his linkedin: [Mod Edit: Link removed]
This.
A lot of long illogical statements for a dev compared to what general consensus among developers was until yesterday.

It doesn't sound right at all.
 
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Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
And usually, the people that talk details online haven't signed one meaning they don't have access to the hardware, otherwise they would be burned alive by Sony and MS.

Good luck to you, mate.

One usually can't say anything about anything when they sign an NDA. And no, one cannot quote others' opinions regarding the same NDA'ed thing.

As a general rule in the industry, if one has signed an NDA about something, that NDA governs literally everything, except usually amplifying official messaging that has been shared officially and publicly by the owners of the thing that is behind NDAs. Just that, nothing else. Oh, this tomato is red? Yes, look guys, the tomato is red! There is no mention about the taste anywhere in the official messaging, so if someone has signed an NDA, they should neither talk nor quote others about taste.
And with that I am done with this thread which has no base for anything other than the preference (wherever that stems from) from a twitter account.

Thanks, as always, elenarie.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,815
Who should we trust:

A "dev", or the people in this very thread who cry 'fake lol'?

You should trust common sense and understand that every bit of information is being relayed through the point of view of that person. A developer, a journalist and a gamer all see the same situation through a different prism and with different priorities.
 
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c0c0suma

Banned
Jan 20, 2018
79
One usually can't say anything about anything when they sign an NDA. And no, one cannot quote others' opinions regarding the same NDA'ed thing.

As a general rule in the industry, if one has signed an NDA about something, that NDA governs literally everything, except usually amplifying official messaging that has been shared officially and publicly by the owners of the thing that is behind NDAs. Just that, nothing else. Oh, this tomato is red? Yes, look guys, the tomato is red! There is no mention about the taste anywhere in the official messaging, so if someone has signed an NDA, they should neither talk nor quote others about taste.
Exactly. He's not even touched by the NDA, neither his so called "related coworkers" / "devs".
 

G_Zero

alt account
Banned
Mar 19, 2019
457
He's speaking absolutely non sense about Xbox.

1. Unlike Sony's poor jail method, Xbox games don't even use Windows. It's just a kernel and basic stuff needed for running.
Do you have a link to where one can read about the XSX OS? I'm interested. I would think that it uses the NT kernel at least.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,859
mean, what he says about Windows and DirectX APIs holding programmers back make sense to me.

This makes no sense coming from Crytek.
A PC centric studios and they have always used both windows and several versions of DirectX when they made their games on PC since the beginning.

I mean, how are DirectX and Windows holding back when litteraly every developer on earth making games is well trained using both of them?
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
And with that I am done with this thread which has no base for anything other than the preference (wherever that stems from) from a twitter account.

Thanks, as always, elenarie.

That's from elenarie's experience. We have no clue what NDAs this guy is under, but it's pretty clear to see where your mindset is so it probably is best if you leave.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
Regarding this part:
As a programmer and developer, which do you consider the best console for working and coding? PlayStation 5 or Xbox Series X?

Definitely PlayStation 5.

As a programmer, I would say that the PlayStation 5 is much better, and I don't think you can find a programmer who can outperform the PlayStation 5 from the Xbox Series X. For the Xbox, they have to put DirectX and Windows on the console, which is many years old, but for each new console that Sony builds, it also rebuilds the software and APIs in any way it wants. It is in their interest and in our interest. Because there is only one way to do everything, and theirs is the best way possible.

Reminds me of the stuff Jason Schreier said at the end of last year, where he mentioned that devs said to him the PS5 hardware is excellent and the tools are great / on time.
All this is more interesting that I thought :)
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
He's speaking absolutely non sense about Xbox.

1. Unlike Sony's poor jail method, Xbox games don't even use Windows. It's just a kernel and basic stuff needed for running.
2. Xbox only accept DX12 games now. DX11 with xbox extension was the basic form of DX12 and it's now long gone.
3. Rebuilding the API from the ground up is always a very damned option which was never welcomed by normal developers. And honestly the vast majority of developers doesn't touch much into the layer of API too.
4. Splitting the RAM into 32MB & 8GB is far away from splitting into 10 & 6GB. And PC games have been doing this from the birth of earth. You always keep on track of what your resource is and where it's at. Whether it's graphical or logical. Making such stupid argument only shows that he's either an unqualified developer or full of biased bs.

I can't really understand how this kind of developer got into Crytek.
Here's his linkedin: [Mod Edit: Link removed]

So now we've resorted to questioning people's characters and calling them unqualified and stupid? Some of you take this shit way too seriously and need to grow up for real.
 
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Xadra

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2018
1,985
Just wanted to say that this translation is really great. Like I checked most of it with the actual text and it's almost 100% on point.

So if you were wondering about that, this is a great translation.
---
داداش اگر داری این رو میخونی دمت گرم. خسته نباشی، خیلی خوب ترجمه کردی خداییش

Thank you for checking the translation. We appreciate the effort.
 
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