• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Sygma

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
954
Lol this tweet is 100% sarcasm

He's saying that the game has all the attention

I think it's just a dude having fun because he knows that people will react out of proportions on forums and whatnot, since it has been the case from the launch. Shit is absolutely ridiculous, he's just adding another layer
 

enMTW

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
894
Denuvo is based on an online server-based check to validate your game at certain intervals. When that server goes offline you lose access to the game that you paid for. It isn't just a matter of principle, a very similar scenario happened to a lot of people who bought Securom games which won't run on Windows 10 because the DRM system has been abandoned and the publishers never patched the games to remove it.

The version of SecuROM that Denuvo is most similar to (but not really, as Denuvo isn't a DRM system in the traditional sense) is SecuROM Online Activation, which still works on Windows 10.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
That still means people would have to buy it 6 months in, when pretty much any Denuvo game, since the last few years, had long been broken. Why should pirates buy it for 40$, when they can have it for 0?
I wouldn't be surprised if you have a large group of die hard pirates who buy nothing and then sizeable part of the Steam audience who buy games on Steam, an then perhaps people in the middle who occasionally pirate. The first group you can forget, doesn't matter how good your DRM, pretty much none of them will bite. So the DRM model must aim to make occasional pirates in to purchasers. But clearly in a world where Denuvo has been cracked within weeks for years, that doesn't work. Instead you would need to create incentives that make the legitimate version more interesting. Better price, better Steam-exclusive features, whatever.
Instead adding even totally non-intrusive DRM to the game, will give you a bad rep with a large portion of your customers, perhaps enough to make them buy other games (Steam isn't exactly underserved with new, shiny games).

DRM didn't save the PC industry, Steam did by offering better, cheaper services. This is a solved issue, the only new thing, and the reason we are talking about this in 2017, is that Denuvo had a smart idea that utilized a new principle and it took a while for people to debug it properly (made more difficult by the anti-tampering). But it's a one hit wonder, they are just trying to beat the same old horse, with no real improvements. Hope this stuff dies down again, when it's clear that Denuvo doesn't do anything anymore.
Exactly.
 

Justin Bailey

BackOnline
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,480
Looks like the tweet has been deleted.

Is the game selling well? Usually when companies complain about pirates this early it means the sales aren't up to expectations. Of course he could just be blowing off some steam on Twitter.

DRM sucks but it's there to make it just a little harder to get the game for free. Anyone who is dead set on it will pirate the game, but there are a ton of "casual" pirates that just might decide it's not worth the hassle and buy it.
 

Tayls

Member
Oct 27, 2017
119
Well, this preliminary data shows weaker start for cracked early Wolfenstein.
M4trl.JPG
 

Kneecap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
304
What did you expect? People don't pirate not just because they think it's morally wrong but because it's illegal. Pirating is ethically wrong if the law of the country where you are doing the copying has a law against such copying. if the country allow it or turn a blind eye then ofcource they'll pirate.

Just a quick response to this sentiment: sometimes disobedience to the law is not only ethical, but also a moral imperative. See "slavery". I'm not trying to equate slavery with IP piracy, but there is a grey area where corporate power and corrupt political systems make the all piracy is always bad argument much weaker. See "Disney ".
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
Are you really comparing two entirely different games and drawing conclusions about the impact of DRM based on that?
If so, then I'll throw into the ring that Divinity: Original Sin 2 has no DRM and already sold 900k+ copies.
Doesn't make sense to compare that? Well, you are absolutely correct, it doesn't, because it's an entirely different game.
 

Rowlf

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
645
Just a quick response to this sentiment: sometimes disobedience to the law is not only ethical, but also a moral imperative. See "slavery". I'm not trying to equate slavery with IP piracy, but there is a grey area where corporate power and corrupt political systems make the all piracy is always bad argument much weaker. See "Disney ".
Kneecap, please clarify your "see slavery" comment.
 

Tayls

Member
Oct 27, 2017
119
Are you really comparing two entirely different games and drawing conclusions about the impact of DRM based on that?
Yes, they are different, but both are AAA titles that are usually more targeted by piracy and AC is showing initial sales (without even uplay info) somewhere around Shadow of War numbers that was cracked after launch while Wolfenstein shows them more around Evil Within 2 that was also available before launch on torrents. And yes that is preliminary data so its more of a wild guess right now how it will turn out.
 

GrrImAFridge

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARYDOOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,675
Western Australia
Worth nothing that AC is HUGE

Not to mention they're completely different games. A better comparison would be The Old Blood, which was sitting at ~85k after a few weeks (SteamSpy wasn't around in 2014).

Yes, they are different, but both are AAA titles that are usually more targeted by piracy and AC is showing initial sales (without even uplay info) somewhere around Shadow of War numbers that was cracked after launch while Wolfenstein shows them more around Evil Within 2 that was also available before launch on torrents. And yes that is preliminary data so its more of a wild guess right now how it will turn out.

Assassin's Creed is a far, far bigger franchise. You're comparing an apple to an orange. Also, The Evil Within 2 didn't hit Torrent Land before release but rather after unlocking in AU, NZ and Asia.
 

Deleted member 10675

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
990
Madrid
Yes, they are different, but both are AAA titles that are usually more targeted by piracy and AC is showing initial sales (without even uplay info) somewhere around Shadow of War numbers that was cracked after launch while Wolfenstein shows them more around Evil Within 2 that was also available before launch on torrents. And yes that is preliminary data so its more of a wild guess right now how it will turn out.
Shadow of War was cracked day one. Do you really think there is a relevant number of people not willing to wait a few hours to see if the game gets cracked and instead they are buying it at full price?
 

enMTW

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
894
Neither does The New Colossus.

I am aware. The reason AC is being invoked is because it does use strong DRM. The unanswerable question is to what extent do sales benefit when a game is not cracked during the release window. Sales do benefit from that, that is just common sense, but no one knows to what extent. It's a tough problem.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
Yes, they are different, but both are AAA titles that are usually more targeted by piracy and AC is showing initial sales (without even uplay info) somewhere around Shadow of War numbers that was cracked after launch while Wolfenstein shows them more around Evil Within 2 that was also available before launch on torrents. And yes that is preliminary data so its more of a wild guess right now how it will turn out.
Even if you had 100% accurate to-the-seccond data for all of these games it still wouldn't help in actually answering the question what the impact of DRM is.
The games have far too many distinct factors affecting their appeal that you cannot control for.
 

Reinhard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,604
Denuvo is useless now, but a game being leaked early is definitely very harmful. People will download it to try it out because they don't want to wait, then don't bother buying it because they already downloaded it/finished it. I don't understand how the entire game was leaked, there should have been a portion that wasn't uploaded to any server yet to ensure any leak was unplayable.
 

enMTW

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
894
Yes, they are different, but both are AAA titles that are usually more targeted by piracy and AC is showing initial sales (without even uplay info) somewhere around Shadow of War numbers that was cracked after launch while Wolfenstein shows them more around Evil Within 2 that was also available before launch on torrents. And yes that is preliminary data so its more of a wild guess right now how it will turn out.

Shadow of War was bundled with Nvidia GPUs. The ownership numbers for it are misleading.

Denuvo is useless now, but a game being leaked early is definitely very harmful. People will download it to try it out because they don't want to wait, then don't bother buying it because they already downloaded it/finished it. I don't understand how the entire game was leaked, there should have been a portion that wasn't uploaded to any server yet to ensure any leak was unplayable.

The game was unlocked at midnight local time in AU/New Zealand. That's why.
 

rzmunch

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,800
Argentina
I've seen this a lot as well some people pirate early releases to see how it plays / runs for themselves before purchasing. Not that I agree with that but maybe PC need free trials for 2 hours or something like EA access does.

Yeah, how does a game leak before a release date? Physical copies cracked? Things like this make companies use DRM. Yeah some trial may help. Or maybe sell the game with DRM for a month then erase it with an update.
 

GrrImAFridge

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARYDOOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,675
Western Australia
I am aware. The reason AC is being invoked is because it does use strong DRM. The unanswerable question is to what extent do sales benefit when a game is not cracked during the release window. Sales do benefit from that, that is just common sense, but no one knows to what extent. It's a tough problem.

I realise that. My point is that the argument that the comparison to AssCreed suggests the absence of DRM has impacted sales is called into question when you consider The New Colossus is tracking ahead of its predecessor.

Edit:
I'm not saying TNC tracking ahead of TOB proves the comparison is invalid but rather that there's not enough data to draw anything but tenuous conclusions.
 
Last edited:

enMTW

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
894
I realise that. My point is that the argument that the comparison to AssCreed suggests the absence of DRM has impacted sales is called into question when you consider The New Colossus is tracking ahead of its predecessor.

That assumes that there are no differences between now and the time of TNC's release. That's not the case. Lots of other games that have to be actually paid for in order to play - Mario, AC, etc. If you want to play Wolf 2 as well, you can pirate that one. But the others are in competition for your money, which is one possible reason for the sales slump.

We're just guessing here. The thing about piracy is that it is virtually impossible to measure the impact.
 

GrrImAFridge

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARYDOOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,675
Western Australia
That assumes that there are no differences between now and the time of TNC's release. That's not the case. Lots of other games that have to be actually paid for in order to play - Mario, AC, etc. If you want to play Wolf 2 as well, you can pirate that one. But the others are in competition for your money, which is one possible reason for the sales slump.

We're just guessing here. The thing about piracy is that it is virtually impossible to measure the impact.

I'm not saying TNC tracking ahead of TOB proves the comparison is invalid but rather that there's not enough data to draw anything but tenuous conclusions.
 
Last edited:

shimon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,581
Denuvo is useless now, but a game being leaked early is definitely very harmful. People will download it to try it out because they don't want to wait, then don't bother buying it because they already downloaded it/finished it. I don't understand how the entire game was leaked, there should have been a portion that wasn't uploaded to any server yet to ensure any leak was unplayable.

I don't think it's "useless" as long as it's not cracked within a day consistently. And that is not happening yet,latest proof being ACO.
 

enMTW

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
894
The slavery statement was meant to illustrate the point that legality does not equal moral. Even though slavery was legal in the USA and elsewhere that never made it ethical.

Let me help you out.

Owning human beings is wrong. On every level. In every way.

Disney lobbying to extend copyright in an effort to protect one of their IPs is something we can have a debate about, where there is more than one valid point of view.

Do us all a favor and do not invoke slavery ever again.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
But that carries the implication that people opted to pirate the game because it had no DRM protection.

It is more a cultural and utilitarian thing than malice. People who pirate will do it even if the game costs $1 USD.
This has no actual basis in actual psychology.

When iTunes made buying songs $1, it did crater music piracy. People en masse didn't keep going "oh, it's still a price above free, so I will pirate it."

The vast majority of consumers do it out of convenience, which is why investing in anti-crack protection is worth it to a lot of publishers—they don't really need to stop pirates forever, they just need to stop them the day of, the week of, maybe the month of. Sales are front loaded, and pushing enough people who would casually pirate the game to buy it in that span is worth it.

That's the logical side of the argument, of course. Maintaining DRM schemes on old games, or investing in Denuvo now when it appears to be increasingly easy to crack, or questions that have much more to do with sentiment than logic.
 

Kneecap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
304
Let me help you out.

Owning human beings is wrong. On every level. In every way.......
Do us all a favor and do not invoke slavery ever again.
I think i said that. And as for your request, my point was legitimate and the illustration was apt. Perhaps i misunderstand you, but your comment seems like an attempt to tell me how i can debate. I made my comment in good faith and am open to a reasoned response. I do not see either in your last sentence. Please forgive me if the misunderstanding on that is all mine. And, to thread readers in general, my apologies for the partial derail.
 

R.T Straker

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,715
Instead of complaining about pirates on twitter they shoud fix their terrible PC version.

The game is very unstable.
 

enMTW

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
894
I think i said that. And as for your request, my point was legitimate and the illustration was apt. Perhaps i misunderstand you, but your comment seems like an attempt to tell me how i can debate. I made my comment in good faith and am open to a reasoned response. I do not see either in your last sentence. Please forgive me if the misunderstanding on that is all mine. And, to thread readers in general, my apologies for the partial derail.

Uh, no. The point was non-existent and the comparison was something only a white dude would make. Stop. Thanks.
 

Hecht

Blue light comes around
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,734
Ok, let's get this thread back on track. The point that slavery was essentially legal doesn't make it ethical, that makes sense. I think we can all agree that slavery is repugnant and that doesn't somehow forgive the fact that it was legal at the time.

However, this comparison has run its course as we are discussing DRM and not the ownership of fellow human beings. Please get back on topic.
 
OP
OP
rare

rare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,421
Ok, let's get this thread back on track. The point that slavery was essentially legal doesn't make it ethical, that makes sense. I think we can all agree that slavery is repugnant and that doesn't somehow forgive the fact that it was legal at the time.

However, this comparison has run its course as we are discussing DRM and not the ownership of fellow human beings. Please get back on topic.
Ok, I just got back into the thread after not getting on since like the second page and I just want to say what the fuck.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
This has no actual basis in actual psychology.

When iTunes made buying songs $1, it did crater music piracy. People en masse didn't keep going "oh, it's still a price above free, so I will pirate it."

The vast majority of consumers do it out of convenience, which is why investing in anti-crack protection is worth it to a lot of publishers—they don't really need to stop pirates forever, they just need to stop them the day of, the week of, maybe the month of. Sales are front loaded, and pushing enough people who would casually pirate the game to buy it in that span is worth it.

That's the logical side of the argument, of course. Maintaining DRM schemes on old games, or investing in Denuvo now when it appears to be increasingly easy to crack, or questions that have much more to do with sentiment than logic.

Fair point.

I guess my take is all anecdotical. I know people that pirate even when they can afford whatever media they consume: music, movies, games, you name it. The reasons that I hear thrown around is that the economy on our country is not that strong and since they dont make much money they pirate. Or that companies already have too much money, it wont hurt them if they pirate. Or that the cost of pirating is almost zero, why bother to spend even $1.
 

legend166

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,113
Well there exist an EU survey with the conclusion that illegal game downloads don't effect the sales of a game.
Pirates will pirate because they don't want to spend money on a product.
And as proven with Denuvo, every security system can and will be cracked.

BUT: You can scare away some customers who are not willing to install another client or have internet problems
and all that stuff.

I do understand his anger. I would be pissed too if someone "steals" my work but DRM is not a solution

The problem with that study is that it's basically reliant entirely on the responses of people responding to a hypothetical question that they've never had to experience before. They get asked if they'd buy a game of piracy wasn't an option, they say no, and people say "see, piracy doesn't impact sales!" But I just don't see it as realistic that if all of a sudden a perfect DRM solution was invented these millions of people that previously pirated games would just stop playing them altogether.

The problem is, of course, there is no perfect DRM solution and more often than not they end up impacting paying users more than pirates.

Seriously though, pirates are generally just entitled brats who want everything without having to pay for it. Most other excuses are rubbish.
 

DoggosPuppersWoofers

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,880
Pardon my ignorance, but what's the problem with Denuvo? I have bought hundreds of games on Steam, some with and some without DRM, and I never had a problem.
 

madspooky

Member
Oct 28, 2017
80
Fort Kent, ME
Pardon my ignorance, but what's the problem with Denuvo? I have bought hundreds of games on Steam, some with and some without DRM, and I never had a problem.

Some people dislike Denuvo because it seems to affect performance because it's often poorly implemented plus the fact that it pulls part of it's obfuscation code from the internet means that if Denuvo goes away as a company and it isn't patched out you basically lose access to that game.
 

Deleted member 2840

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,400
It's incredibly sad to see that there are people on this forum that actually believe things like "PC gaming can only work because of DRM", "Single player games can't be DRM free" and some other old, factually wrong ideas.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,811
It's incredibly sad to see that there are people on this forum that actually believe things like "PC gaming can only work because of DRM", "Single player games can't be DRM free" and some other old, factually wrong ideas.

I don't think that PC gamers and the PC gaming market have anything to prove to these people anymore. Many years ago, when large parts of the gaming industry seemed determined to write PC gaming's obituary, talking about the effects of piracy was useful and justified. In 2017 and taking into account the current state of the PC gaming market, I think that focusing on piracy is counter-productive and largely meaningless.
 

WildWayz

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
285
I've not pirated a game in urm.... 5 years or more - possibly 10 years. Always gone by "if you are a fan, buy it".
I've got a Google Music account too. Wish there was a version for movies too (not Netflix as their stuff is dated).
Heck, I even own licenses for Winzip and Winrar lol