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CTR Nitro Fueled includes a racially insensitive skin for Tawna [see staff post: discussion guidelines]

Bitmap Frogs

Banned
Sep 16, 2018
705
This stereotype is 100% confined to american culture and its surroundings. Outside of america this is just not a thing. So if you aren't even aware of it, making the connection between black people and watermelon doesn't even cross your mind. The whole world doesn't revolve around the US.
Educate them and save this condescending attitude for something else.
For all the inclusivity talk that goes on here, posters here often forget how USA-centric this board is and assume American culture is the culture of the entire world. Very imperialistic.

For example in my country the racist black caricature "blackface" is a thing, but watermelon is not a thing.
 

deejay

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
453
Stop making a big deal about fictional characters.

When there's no such characters it's a huge thing and, like now, when there is, it is, too. They can never do right. Give it a break.
 
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Stop It

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,064
This stereotype is 100% confined to american culture and its surroundings. Outside of america this is just not a thing. So if you aren't even aware of it, making the connection between black people and watermelon doesn't even cross your mind. The whole world doesn't revolve around the US.
Educate them and save this condescending attitude for something else.
If you enter a thread about racism and parade your ignorance, what the hell do you expect?

There's plenty of things I don't understand coming into a thread so I make sure to try to understand it going before commenting.

Yes, having a primer in the OP is good netiquette. But also good is to not ask others to do something you can do yourself going in.

Ignorance should be no excuse and the handwaving of "but it's not something from my culture" is not acceptable. For example Boris Johnson has used this racist stereotype and he's not exactly an edgy internet memelord.

The developers likely didn't figure that this was an racially insensitive as it is and it'll hopefully be addressed but honestly if you want people to engage positively to you and not create angry disputes, don't go in like this at people who are pretty legitimately upset at having to Google for other people what they clearly can do and actually bring something more to the table than "This mens nothing to me, could someone Google a link to help?"
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,471
So after 8 pages:
  • After the alarming OP, we’ve seen a better quality picture in which the character doesn’t even look black -if you can even call that a furry cartoon animal character-. The picture clearly depicts a watermelon pink/green themed shirt.
  • There’s another character similarly themed with watermelon colors
  • There’s even another character with ‘lemonade’ theme
  • People don’t seem to understand that the watermelon thing - like many other things discussed in this forum - is very specific to USA . Yes, you can find a kid in Portugal who browses 4chan and is aware of it, doesn’t mean anyone not on racist forums outside the US will understand what’s happening. That’s part of your racist history, we have other stuff in our own countries.
  • The development team is absolutely white
  • Watermelon is a delicious fruit which everyone should enjoy without old racist connotations
I don’t think there’s any malice behind the design (it’s just summer themed) and it’s just a coincidence. Maybe it’s not. If you’re always looking for problematic anything you’ll eventually find shit though. I’m sure they’ll change it in order to avoid lawsuits if this get enough traction anyway, but they should absolutely not if there wasn’t bad intention behind it.
 

Sanka

Member
Feb 17, 2019
552
For all the inclusivity talk that goes on here, posters here often forget how USA-centric this board is and assume American culture is the culture of the entire world. Very imperialistic.

For example in my country the racist black caricature "blackface" is a thing, but watermelon is not a thing.
That occurs a lot online. But that happens when you are so culturally isolated and dominant at the same time. Most countries know a lot about the US but the US only knows little about other countries in comparison.
If you enter a thread about racism and parade your ignorance, what the hell do you expect?

There's plenty of things I don't understand coming into a thread so I make sure to try to understand it going before commenting.

Yes, having a primer in the OP is good netiquette. But also good is to not ask others to do something you can do yourself going in.

Ignorance should be no excuse and the handwaving of "but it's not something from my culture" is not acceptable. For example Boris Johnson has used this racist stereotype and he's not exactly an edgy internet memelord.

The developers likely didn't figure that this was an racially insensitive as it is and it'll hopefully be addressed but honestly if you want people to engage positively to you and not create angry disputes, don't go in like this at people who are pretty legitimately upset at having to Google for other people what they clearly can do and actually bring something more to the table than "This mens nothing to me, could someone Google a link to help?"
It is okay to ask questions in a forum. And if you don't like it, ignore it. Being a condescending asshole to someone who wants to know more is not helpful and derails the discussion as it did with this thread.

I have no problems with linking a Wikipedia article about a certain subject to explain it to someone. That costs me no energy. And it only becomes a problem the moment they try to deny it, which in this 8 page long thread hasn't happened once. So again, save that unproductive attitude of yours for something else.
 

Ravelle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,791
This stereotype is 100% confined to american culture and its surroundings. Outside of america this is just not a thing. So if you aren't even aware of it, making the connection between black people and watermelon doesn't even cross your mind. The whole world doesn't revolve around the US.
Educate them and save this condescending attitude for something else.
Hi, Netherlands here. We've known to be this a racial stereo type for a while.
 

Wrestleman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,477
Yeah. This is iffy, but I think some of the responses are hyperbolic. The skin is named after the clothing and they put a red hue over the fur textures to match. It comes across as darkening her color but it's pretty clearly an accidental, albeit problematic, outcome. I don't get the rush to denounce them from some people. This same team thought better of having a group of scantily clad women named "The Trophy Girls" and renamed them and gave them much more flattering outfits and personalities, but yes, I'm sure they simultaneously thought it would be a riot to throw in some racist shit. Give me a break.

As far as this being an "America thing" -- it's really just a hop skip and a jump from "this isn't a thing in my country" to "let's not talk about this problematic thing because I personally can't relate to it" and that's how some of these posts come across. That's the issue with that. The context and reason the skin is problematic has been explained. People are quick to harp on American culture being 'imperialistic' or that this forum is too America-centric; but an issue not existing in your country doesn't absolve the fact that it *does* exist in ours, just as the inverse would also be true.

My opinion is that Beenox will very likely patch this, will give an apology, and it'll be a non issue.
 

Rotimi

Member
Dec 25, 2017
855
Lagos , Nigeria
When I first saw it I didn’t get the issue, reading the wiki article made me really annoyed. They better fix it

Now I am Nigerian and honestly don’t know all this stuff, but even if you can’t relate just finding out that this was once a Symbol to make a fellow human feel lower than they are, should make you call for its removal. And nothing else
 
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ninjabreadman

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
260
Wow, hadn't even opened my game yet. Is there any way I can avoid installing this patch but still play online?

It's a fairly common stereotype, find it hard to believe that this wouldn't be intentional or sometimes thinking they were being clever/funny.
 

Ravelle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,791
You do? As a german that is suprising to me. I would have never heard of it if it wasn't for the internet.
I do and it never crossed my mind that it's something that's exclusive to the US, thought it was a pretty well known stereo type too. I'm not sure when or how it became known.
 

rochellepaws

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,846
Ireland
It seems like a genuine oversight considering they used the watermelon theme on another character. Hoping they do better than Nintendo with the Smash Bros Diddy Kong incident and actually change it because it's unquestionably offensive.
 

Applebite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
229
Stop making a big deal about fictional characters.

When there's no such characters it's a huge thing and, like now, when there is, it is, too. They can never do right. Give it a break.
What is wrong with being critical of the media you consume? The way you've worded it, people are supposedly only complaining. That's not true. There's been plenty of good representation, and people rave about it all the time. When things end up like this, people complain about it. I don't think it's so weird. I think the CTR team just made a mistake, people are pointing it out because it looks pretty damn bad and I'm sure they'll correct it when they realize how (accidentally) bad it looks.
 

Trn25

Banned
May 23, 2019
49
I bought this for my partner. Do you think Sony would give me a refund? I know that don’t usually but given the extreme circumstances I should be entitled right?
 

deejay

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
453
User Banned (permanent): Dismissive and Antagonistic Commentary and Inflammatory False Equivalence Surrounding Race Over Multiple Posts in this Thread
What is wrong with being critical of the media you consume? The way you've worded it, people are supposedly only complaining. That's not true. There's been plenty of good representation, and people rave about it all the time. When things end up like this, people complain about it. I don't think it's so weird. I think the CTR team just made a mistake and I'm sure they'll correct it when they realize how (accidentally) bad it looks.
Because no one can take anything anymore, people just bitch and moan about EVERYTHING these days. Maybe I have thicker skin (pretty damn sure about it, actually), but not everything has to be taken under a microscope. Like I said, in this case call it player choice (and creative freedom); want to play with that particular skin, go ahead, else just avoid it. I'm white, you don't see me bitching about every fucking white person that doesn't look like me in a game. It's a game, who cares, just sell it if you really can't take it (or don't even buy it), or just take one of the other skins. You don't HAVE to pick it, you know, just ignore it. What a generation these days.
 

Trn25

Banned
May 23, 2019
49
Because no one can take anything anymore, people just bitch and moan about EVERYTHING these days. Maybe I have thicker skin (pretty damn sure about it, actually), but not everything has to be taken under a microscope. Like I said, in this case call it player choice (and creative freedom); want to play with that particular skin, go ahead, else just avoid it. I'm white, you don't see me bitching about every fucking white person that doesn't look like me in a game. It's a game, who cares, just sell it if you really can't take it (or don't even buy it), or just take one of the other skins. You don't HAVE to pick it, you know, just ignore it. What a generation these days.
Goodbye to your account and good riddance
 

Alex840

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,125
Can someone enlighten me as to what's going on? Is it to do with the stereotype of black people liking Watermelon?

Edit: have seen the Wiki post above, never mind.
 

JayC3

bork bork
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
1,898
This thread is temporarily locked while we evaluate reports.
 
Discussion guidelines

Redcrayon

Zoinks!
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
6,190
UK
Official Staff Communication
This thread is motivated by concerns surrounding an extremely pervasive and historic racist stereotype.

Regardless of your local or individual experience with this stereotype, it is offensive and degrading to black-skinned people all around the world. It is not just an American issue. Lack of awareness in cultures without major black populations does not mean it isn’t a degrading and racist caricature that is insulting to the people it mocks. The history of this stereotype can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermelon_stereotype

Whether this character skin was intended to have this connotation or it was simply an unfortunate accident doesn’t dictate the validity of people’s concerns. If this is your first time hearing about this stereotype, please be respectful and observant to the fact that this sort of imagery has been used to harm darker-skinned populations for over a century.
 

Cokesouls

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,025
User Banned (1 Month): Ignoring Staff Post, dismissing concerns surrounding bigotry, previous related infraction
It is a stereotype that was created by southerners in fear of Afrian americans slaves having regained their freedom. They made the fruit a symbol of it, since they grew and sold it for their living.

You CANNOT blame non-americans for never having heard of it. Not everyone consumes social media, especially American social media, like maniacs. Stop this outrage on people that are ignorant about it.
 

Quade

Member
Mar 8, 2019
22
Because no one can take anything anymore, people just bitch and moan about EVERYTHING these days. Maybe I have thicker skin (pretty damn sure about it, actually), but not everything has to be taken under a microscope. Like I said, in this case call it player choice (and creative freedom); want to play with that particular skin, go ahead, else just avoid it. I'm white, you don't see me bitching about every fucking white person that doesn't look like me in a game. It's a game, who cares, just sell it if you really can't take it (or don't even buy it), or just take one of the other skins. You don't HAVE to pick it, you know, just ignore it. What a generation these days.
Lmao, as if that wasn't already obvious. Bye
 

Rabalder.

Member
Dec 8, 2018
728
Jesus fuck. How hard is it to spend 30 seconds googling before making an ignorant, dismissive post that comes across as downplaying one of the most prevalent racial stereotypes black people have faced in the US?

Some of you need to go outside once in a fucking while.
 

Adamska

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,759
It's very unfortunate that the skin summons such negative stereotypes since the game itself seems to have gone above and beyond to add racial inclusion and tried to turn around negative gender stereotypes inherited from the original release with the Bandicoot gang skins.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,764
Germany
Why would non-Americans know about this? And why would you scoff at the opportunity to educate people about racial sensitivity?
I didn't know about the watermelon stereotype...
Me neither until maybe one or two years ago when I saw a YouTube video where a colored guy was making some kind of joke that he loves watermelons and I didn't get it until I realized he was purposely deliver on a stereotype that was explained later somewhere (comment section I think).
Or the blackfacing I didn't know of (and never have heard that term before) until University where I had a lecture on American history on film. And this, along with the watermelon stereotype is obviously rooted in American history and not in every world's country. Of course you learn the basics about American history like the Civil war but you don't learn that the watermelon was a symbol of their freedom which is now being used to stereotype people of color. I think I could ask many people about what stereotype they think of when I say 'watermelon' and only few would answer people of color, because many people don't know about that and thus don't 'use' that stereotyping).
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,067
Bullshit. Not American and I know about this watermelon shit too. Just because you’re ignorant of it doesn’t mean it hasn’t been used to generalise black people around the world.
Yes it has, but most people who say they have not heard of it are not part of a concpiracy to downplay it. They just haven't heard of it. The developers don't really have an excuse since they have approval processes in place, but why are we trying to call out random people from around the world for not knowing about it, especially since it's not all that prevalent in pop culture for younger people?

Part of the solution to racism is education.
 

Parsnip

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,146
Finland
Someone really should add the wikipedia link to the OP. Frankly it should've been there from the start. Certainly would have made the thread more about the actual issue and less about everything else. I had not heard of it prior to reading this thread and quick research seems to suggest it's not super widely known in Finland.

As for the thing, it's probably accidental but needs to be altered, obviously.
 

Siresly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,330
Seems likely to be a mistake, that can and should be corrected. I vote pineapple shirt.
 

luulubuu

User requested permanent ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,232
It is a stereotype that was created by southerners in fear of Afrian americans slaves having regained their freedom. They made the fruit a symbol of it, since they grew and sold it for their living.

You CANNOT blame non-americans for never having heard of it. Not everyone consumes social media, especially American social media, like maniacs. Stop this outrage on people that are ignorant about it.
Replay Persona 5. You need a change of heart.
 

Jktpnymonorel

Banned
Jan 19, 2018
490
stupid name nonetheless, but the HD pic is not that dark actually.... just why watermelon jesus

Yes it has, but most people who say they have not heard of it are not part of a concpiracy to downplay it. They just haven't heard of it. The developers don't really have an excuse since they have approval processes in place, but why are we trying to call out random people from around the world for not knowing about it, especially since it's not all that prevalent in pop culture for younger people?

Part of the solution to racism is education.
not american here, I can say only small people know this stereotype in Asia ( even then I knew due to some racist meme on 9gag)
but I would not really jump the gun on someone not knowing this.

post like "you can really educate yourself before asking"
well so do you from typing shit like that.
I get it........ american forum, but I am starting to run out of patience tolerating those posts
 

dunkzilla

Member
Dec 13, 2018
525
stupid name nonetheless, but the HD pic is not that dark actually.... just why watermelon jesus



not american here, I can say only small people know this stereotype in Asia ( even then I knew due to some racist meme on 9gag)
but I would not really jump the gun on someone not knowing this.

post like "you can really educate yourself before asking"
well so do you from typing shit like that.
I get it........ american forum, but I am starting to run out of patience tolerating those posts
The t shirt is a watermelon t shirt.
 

SleepSmasher

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,520
Australia
Official Staff Communication
This thread is motivated by concerns surrounding an extremely pervasive and historic racist stereotype.

Regardless of your local or individual experience with this stereotype, it is offensive and degrading to black-skinned people all around the world. It is not just an American issue. Lack of awareness in cultures without major black populations does not mean it isn’t a degrading and racist caricature that is insulting to the people it mocks. The history of this stereotype can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermelon_stereotype

Whether this character skin was intended to have this connotation or it was simply an unfortunate accident doesn’t dictate the validity of people’s concerns. If this is your first time hearing about this stereotype, please be respectful and observant to the fact that this sort of imagery has been used to harm darker-skinned populations for over a century.
Just want to add that, as you said yourself, it's not just an American issue since it degrades black-skinned people and there's no other way around it. However, this stereotype acknowledgement is particularly easy for Americans to recognize and understand, but it isn't necessarily that simple outside the Americas. I have 3 friends (who play the game), all black-skinned, who had no idea about this issue before reading the wiki page mentioned above, and therefore weren't offended by it initially, although now they do recognize the issue and have their opinions about it.

What I mean is that the outrage here towards the developer should be better evaluated if, for instance, their QA testers aren't familiar with American history. I totally agree with the fact that this should be patched, but I don't agree with the hyperbolic hot takes and accusations against the developers without better context. It could unfortunately be just a mistake due to ignorance and proper research.
 
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Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,369
Finland
quick research seems to suggest it's not super widely known in Finland.
Yeah it's not really a thing in Finland, of course some people are still aware of it. Like myself since I have consumed a lot of media from the US, especially race/racism related even on a young age. And at one point in my life I got a chuckle out of all kind of offensive memes, so the stereotype was used in those a lot too.
Yes it has, but most people who say they have not heard of it are not part of a concpiracy to downplay it. They just haven't heard of it. The developers don't really have an excuse since they have approval processes in place, but why are we trying to call out random people from around the world for not knowing about it, especially since it's not all that prevalent in pop culture for younger people?

Part of the solution to racism is education.
As for the developers not catching it, it's very possible if not even likely the character isn't considered a black person so there is no racist connotation in the devs minds. If I was playing the game and saw that skin, even though I'm aware of the stereotype, I would just connect the name with the watermelon themed shirt rather than the shade of her fur. Especially as the game has other similar skins and names, even specifically another watermelon skin. There's no apparent reason for me to think the inclusion of Watermelon Tawna would be racist, to my understanding anthropomorphic animals or other non-human characters aren't generally considered as race representation.
 
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Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,067
As for the developers not catching it, it's very possible if not even likely the character isn't considered a black person so there is no racist connotation in their minds.
Yeah, I would highly doubt they they intended to put racist jokes in their game. They are a business and are probably not interested in committing suicide.
 

Hage

Member
Mar 15, 2018
160
Sorry if this has been said already in the thread, but the lower quality image doesn't look like the higher quality one at all, she isn't darker skinned and has a watermelon design on the t-shirt which explains the name... Are we sure the original pic wasn't edited to make it become offensive based on the skin name?
 

AtomicShroom

Tools & Automation
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,365
Wow I can’t imagine this is anything other than an unintentional mistake based on ignorance. I’m from Quebec, where the game was made, and I have honestly never heard of this stereotype before the existence of this thread. Now that I know, though, I hope the message will reach them and that they’ll change it. Yikes!
 

7threst

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,626
Netherlands
Hi, Netherlands here. We've known to be this a racial stereo type for a while.
Eh, no? Netherlands here too and this stereotype is something only known by people because of dumb 4chan memes, same as with the chicken stereotype. This really isn't as widely known as some people in this thread act like it is.

Still, people are rightfully upset by this, it should definitely be fixed.
 

kitchenmotors

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,326
Illinois
Jesus fuck. How hard is it to spend 30 seconds googling before making an ignorant, dismissive post that comes across as downplaying one of the most prevalent racial stereotypes black people have faced in the US?

Some of you need to go outside once in a fucking while.
It really is quite shameful. Makes it easy to click the ignore button though.