• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

NinjaTrouiLLe

Member
Nov 27, 2017
702
Yeah, don't trust anybody who repeatably say "which hunts" when it comes to women's issues.

He doesn't repeat it, he just said it once, and it was not just about women, but also about other socialy identified minorities.

He said the bad social climate in companies should be getting ridden off, harassment included.

Does it make his point less or more wrong?
 

Eolz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,601
FR
Julien Chièze's (ex-Gameblog) reaction (in French):

Chièze giving journalism lessons is hilariously pathetic. Pot kettle etc.
Le Monde confirms they have talked to 30 different employees and would have never published if it was just 1-2 with an obvious interest in criticizing the company btw

 
Oct 27, 2017
13,464
Someone on Gamekut says he knows a guy working at QD, who told him they tried to warn Cage that some scenes or characters conveyed racist stereotypes but Cage objected immediately:

Le coup des photos, dans l'idée ça peut être marrant quand t'es dans une petite boite, mais ça peut facilement devenir pas drole du tout dans une société de 200 pinpins qui sont pas forcément potes les uns avec les autres (voire se connaissent à peine).
Pour le côté tyrannique de David C., pour le coup, ça corrobore certaines infos que j'avais eu de potes ayant bossé là bas. C'est pas forcément gênant si t'es graphiste ou codeur car il va pas trop t'emmerder, mais j'ai connu un gd qui bossait sur la mise en scène de Heavy Rain et il me disait que l'équipe se battait pour essayer de faire comprendre à Cage que certaines situations ou personnages comprenaient des stéréotypes racistes et le mec se braquait systématiquement. Après, c'est son vécu personnel et donc subjectif, mais ça m'a pas surpris plus que ça. J'avais rencontré une fois en coup de vent David Cage, grâce justement à Guillaume de Fondemière que je connaissais (je ne commenterai donc rien le concernant) : j'étais jeune (21 ans) et Guillaume frappe à la porte de David Cage et lui dit "je te présente Victor (moi), il veut devenir game designer" et là Cage relève à peine les yeux de son ordi et me sort un truc genre "bon courage" et se remet à bosser.
Et là je me suis dit que ce type était le dernier des gros connards !
18.gif
Heureusement que je l'ai pas écouté, je suis entré à supinfogame l'année d'après et j'ai pu exercer le métier plusieurs années avant de passer à autre chose, mais c'est une autre histoire…

https://www.gamekult.com/forum/t/un...-seme-le-trouble-chez-quantic-dream/392225/70

Chièze giving journalism lessons is hilariously pathetic. Pot kettle etc.
Le Monde confirms they have talked to 30 different employees and would have never published if it was just 1-2 with an obvious interest in criticizing the company btw


Welp...
 

KORNdog

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
8,001
Now I'll get back to you. Been waiting for the right time because I don't really like going into my background.
First I'm from Pakistan so when I've worked for companies here in the UK that had predominantly white employees I faced shit employees of QD would have nightmares about. This was in the early 1990's. I was working mainly with labourers who did the initial work. It pissed them no end that a "Paki" was in a better job/position than them. I got called all sorts from "Saddam" which was light to extreme stuff like "desert Nigger" even though I'm fairly light skinned. I could write a whole book about but will keep it short here. You get the drift. Some tried to physically attack me but luckily I've been boxing since 12 so stood up for myself. Other times if we were at a remote place they would deliberately get food which I couldn't eat which wasn't Halal. I could go on.......
This is nothing new and happens at most places. People are reacting on here like its some new uber shit. I'm not buying the game or supporting QD etc. These same people will be buying products from companies where much worse has happened. Are you gonna stop buying their products? I think you'd have to live a hermits life if you think for a minute there wasn't some sort of toxic behaviour happening at all companies all over the world.

while what you're saying is true you have to start somewhere when it comes to making changes within the workplace. hell, we buy electrical products made at a factory town in china where they have to fit nets to stop people throwing themselves off the roof. but i bet a lot of people own iphones, right? but that doesn't mean we need to just accept all that is wrong in the world just because some other guy is doing it too. it's likely some studio (maybe it's QD) will come under attack for dubious work ethics and sexual harassment allegations etc, and they'll be made an example of. it may strike fear into other studio's who make an effort to change the way they do things so not so suffer the same fate. we may still be buying iphones in the process, but at least we're making some change, somewhere. sitting back and saying "well it's always been like this, and other people do it too" doesn't change anything and never will.
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,065
as well as abusive and overly strenuous practices.
Considering this is more or less the industry standard (especially in anything remotely AAA related), it isn't exactly hard to imagine it being true, but it's also a systemic issue, so less likely to be any one individual's fault really.
Toxic/harassment/bad ethics elements are a different story - none of it sounds outrageously different from other toxic environments I've experienced or heard about - but these are also elements that can be hardest to prove or disprove. But also less likely to be systemic, and more a responsibility of individual(s).
 

Nugnip

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,744
Does it make his point fundamentally wrong ?

I pretty much agree on many things he is saying in the video (probably would not have said it in the same order, and not in the same manner, but the matter still stands).
I'm a nobody, and I don't especially fancy QD's productions. I don't know people in QD, so I have no interest in licking butts. I don't especially like Chieze as well, often lacking good information in his videos in general.

Does it make the opinion wrong in the matter anyways?

If we are to have a debate, we should drop the ad hominem crap don't you guys think?
Yes it does. If your knee jerk reaction literally a couple of hours after hearing about it is a shitty YouTube take saying "guys it's probably not true", then you're absolutely wrong. You don't respond to months of investigation with "weird that's not what I heard". You can't dismiss something that bad that quickly. If you have a following base like Chièze has, it's your duty to look into it further, not vomit a quick take on YouTube ASAP.

Reactions like this one are exactly why victims of harassment are afraid to speak up. They think no one will believe them, and you're proving them right.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,438
Sweden
Kojima and Mikami are both like B movie directors too when it comes to story, the only thing they have up on Cage is better game design.
MGS2 has one of the best game stories of all time. V is really good as well, though it went over most people's heads just like 2 did back in the day. (Quiet's design and the way the camera lingers on her are a huge shame though)
 

NinjaTrouiLLe

Member
Nov 27, 2017
702
Yes it does. If your knee jerk reaction literally a couple of hours after hearing about it is a shitty YouTube take saying "guys it's probably not true", then you're absolutely wrong. You don't respond to months of investigation with "weird that's not what I heard". You can't dismiss something that bad that quickly. If you have a following base like Chièze has, it's your duty to look into it further, not vomit a quick take on YouTube ASAP.

Reactions like this one are exactly why victims of harassment are afraid to speak up. They think no one will believe them, and you're proving them right.

Again, it feels you and I haven't watched the same video.
Nowhere is he saying " it's probably not true" if so, please take me to the exact timestamp of the video so I can rewatch it.

All he is saying is that: It's most likely true, and we'd be better off without toxicity of any kind in workplace, but be careful not to judge too quickly, let justice decide.

What would be wrong with this?

It all comes down to how much you trust your own justice system, but it's a different debate.
 

Alderade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
189
I'm horrified by the comments i read online. Internet is dumb and the gamers are the worst.

I'm sad for the people who works in the industry and have to live in a swamp.
 

John Wick

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
440
United Kingdom
Seeing comments everywhere, it's kinda incredible that people would dogpile David Cage over the littlest thing, but when serious allegations comes up he suddenly has a defense force saying the employees are lying in order to receive money.

I don't believe they're a lying because from my personal experience this stuff has been happening for years and is happening now even. It's just with Social media it gets better exposed and faster
 

Lime

Banned for use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,266
I usually prefer not to make any intervention on these topics, but wth, ill give it a try anyways. Whether I get banned does not really matter since i usually come here to read, not talk.

So for people who don't know how things work in France: We don't do prosecussion shit to get some money settlement. So former employees will not gain anything materially substantial by ranting at a former employers. That's just not how it's working.
Plus SJW tendencies are not so much a thing in France as they are in other western countries, so I don't believe they are doing this as a way to bring down the company, because again, a studio would not close down even if these accusations stand true.

So here's what I think: These things actually happened (but again, I could be proven wrong). These jokes were made at some point and at the time they were made, they did not seem to be that much of a huge deal.
In an american company based in France (Oracle, Google, Apple), that would have never happened without retaliation. But we're talking about a French based/owned creative studio. You can pretty much bet you'll find the same sort of things happening in similar companies (created and led by self-made people who did not grow in a corporate environment)... these studios work as a family, in a paternalistic way (in a sense that they care for their people, and what happens in there stays in there and is part of a private realm). In a way, if you do not like that, the door is opened, as sad as it may look, that's the harsh reality if you are part of a socialy recognized minority.

Bear in mind these behaviors are declining in general, but you will always find that in places which are considered to be "private", everybody knows that we don't make the same jokes privately and publically. So the major change here would be for these studios not to consider "their workplace" like it is their home, and then we'll see a change of behavior.


Now for the even sadder/realistic part: we're talking of a studio that's one of the best representent of renewed French videogames creativity, which received serious praise by french government, as well as several awards, so you can bet the prosecution will not be as objective as you might want it to be. You can expect "innocent until proven guilty" concept to be fully applied there, and the studio will NOT close down because of this. The studio will close i guess in the extreme situation where all top talents are following the lead and go away from the company, or if the sales figures are impacted to much that business becomes unsustainable (but we know that will not happen). Sony could cut the fundings, but that will not happen. The case will most likely be forgotten in a couple of months from now.

I hope that comment helped some to understand the situation a bit better.

"SJW tendencies"

"suck it up, that's how things are"

Sorry, but this is not a good way to approach a toxic work place and two racists and misogynists in charge of the company.
 

John Wick

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
440
United Kingdom
while what you're saying is true you have to start somewhere when it comes to making changes within the workplace. hell, we buy electrical products made at a factory town in china where they have to fit nets to stop people throwing themselves off the roof. but i bet a lot of people own iphones, right? but that doesn't mean we need to just accept all that is wrong in the world just because some other guy is doing it too. it's likely some studio (maybe it's QD) will come under attack for dubious work ethics and sexual harassment allegations etc, and they'll be made an example of. it may strike fear into other studio's who make an effort to change the way they do things so not so suffer the same fate. we may still be buying iphones in the process, but at least we're making some change, somewhere. sitting back and saying "well it's always been like this, and other people do it too" doesn't change anything and never will.
My point isn't about making changes or ignoring or accepting these things. It's people on here acting like QD or ND are the only 2 studios this has happened at. Or that this is something new and unique
 

KORNdog

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
8,001
My point isn't about making changes or ignoring or accepting these things. It's people on here acting like QD or ND are the only 2 studios this has happened at. Or that this is something new and unique

but until we know about them, how are we supposed to fight to change something? you're implying every other company is like this, which comes across as you shrugging off the allegations as a "well everyone else does it, why bother trying to change anything". we can't just jump down *enter developers name here* throat about sexual harassment or racism without allegations being made against them. if we start doing that, start assuming they're all the same that's when it becomes an actual witch hunt.

people aren't acting like GD or ND are the only ones doing this...it's simply they're some of the only ones who have been outed about it. we'll start mentioning other studio's if/when they get fingers pointed at them.
 

FrequentFlyer

Banned
Dec 3, 2017
1,273
"SJW tendencies"

"suck it up, that's how things are"

Sorry, but this is not a good way to approach a toxic work place and two racists and misogynists in charge of the company.
Ah, so it has already been decided that they are scummy racists and misogynists?

(But yes, we all know using SJW in a non-ironic way shouldn't fly today)
 

HDMF76

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,316
The problem is that it's not actually inconsequential to most people. Under-representation is still a huge issue in entertainment and the gaming medium especially when it comes to race, gender, or sexuality. "I don't see color, I see people!" removes what makes those people beautiful and unique and worth being seen for who they are. They aren't the problem for wanting more positive examples of themselves out there in front of people. People like you, who demonize them, are the problem. And that's something you really gotta look at yourself for.

I'm not demonising anyone. Jesus, I work in the Mental Health industry and this sometimes means working with people on the wrong end of victimisation. I obviously came across in totally the wrong way. I wont try and explain further as I will probably get banned from here, just want to apologise if I offended anyone as that certainly isnt what I intended to do.
 

SnatcherHunter

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
13,476
Screw me

I always supported every single Quantum Dream game.

I can't support Detroit anymore :-(

Why are there so many Assholes on this planet??
 

NinjaTrouiLLe

Member
Nov 27, 2017
702
"SJW tendencies"

"suck it up, that's how things are"

Sorry, but this is not a good way to approach a toxic work place and two racists and misogynists in charge of the company.

Nobody is abiding to the behaviors, and noone is questionning that bad social behaviors can be harmful. But software development business being super stressful at some point, you're bound to face these behaviors.

If that's from the coworkers, then they should get punished. If that's from several coworkers, then company is at least not doing shit and sometimes worse, encouraging the behavior (which is especially the case when people who're supposed to be giving example... are giving the wrong one).

But if anything that obvious is happening, you can be sure french work inspection will fall on them, because they love it, harassment cases most of all.
Ive been working with and against them, and trust me, when they're after your ass, they get you, and they can have access to all backlogs and sort of proofs they want if it exists.


Now pointing fingers without knowing, and trusting one source above another is pretty dangerous. Work inspection will be the most reliable source in this case.
 

John Wick

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
440
United Kingdom
but until we know about them, how are we supposed to fight to change something? you're implying every other company is like this, which comes across as you shrugging off the allegations as a "well everyone else does it, why bother trying to change anything". we can't just jump down *enter developers name here* throat about sexual harassment or racism without allegations being made against them. if we start doing that, start assuming they're all the same that's when it becomes an actual witch hunt.

people aren't acting like GD or ND are the only ones doing this...it's simply they're some of the only ones who have been outed about it. we'll start mentioning other studio's if/when they get fingers pointed at them.

We do know about it because it's been happening for years and years. Look at the sexual harrasment cases going on in Hollywood as an example. Some are dating back to the 1960's. The only reason you wern't aware of it was because the internet wasn't around then and things like that got swept under the carpet.
We've known for years how electrical goods are made in China and the conditions and pay those poor people get. Or young kids in factories in Pakistan or Bangladesh producing clothes and football's. What's been done about it? Nothing. You think the top brass of these huge companies sit there thinking about any of those poor people? Or at their annual shareholder meeting sitting there thinking we should do something about this?
Have we as consumers decided to stop buying said goods??? No! Infact we want more because we're blind to it.
Some of the reactions on here have been comical with no idea of what real life or the real world is like.
Take crunch time for example. A well known time in the games industry. With virtually all studios having some form of it. So why would you work for a company knowing crunch time will occur during development? I'm lazy and don't like working long hours so I've avoided all my working life those hours or getting jobs where I would be working them. I'd be 2-3 times richer easily but it's not for me.
 

John Wick

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
440
United Kingdom
User banned (24 hours): Repeated uses of whataboutisms to dismiss criticisms to a gaming company after moderation warnings.
The president of America is far far worse than what I've read about David Cage. Yet he's absolutely fine running the country isn't he? How many women have accused Trump of sexual harassment???
David Cage has done wrong but lets put things into context. The overreactionss are comical. Let justice sort it out. If it's that bad then more will come forward. Let's stop blaming Sony for a few bad apples at QD.
 

Nugnip

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,744
The president of America is far far worse than what I've read about David Cage. Yet he's absolutely fine running the country isn't he? How many women have accused Trump of sexual harassment???
David Cage has done wrong but lets put things into context. The overreactionss are comical. Let justice sort it out. If it's that bad then more will come forward. Let's stop blaming Sony for a few bad apples at QD.
Is this a joke post or are you seriously suggesting that if it's not worse than what Trump does, it's ok?
 

NinjaTrouiLLe

Member
Nov 27, 2017
702
It wasn't one source.

It's you who's putting one source above 30 others and blaming it all on "SJW tendencies".

Well that escallated in your mind pretty quickly ;)

I went from "Be careful and let justice decide before coming to hasty conclusion" to "blame it all on SJW Tendencies". If you're seeing a link between these 2 statements, then you should probably read my posts again.

I just said that SJW are not as much a thing in France as they are in other countries, and there is nothing more to understand than that.
Liberation of speach of the victim is a healthy thing, and noone is denying that. Yet given a context, a target that already generates passion it could turn into losing a bit of presumption of innocence that only competent organisms are supposed to investigate on.

If we're ok having collaterals, then so be it, but we have to be perfectly transparent about it right from the get go.

Sad part is that even if these two guys are asshats, i don't think they will most likely not suffer too much from that, situation being the way it is.

As a closing comment, at no place am I casting credit nor discredit on people's suffering, i just prefer to wait, and i respect people who prefer to wait. Because i don't believe social media justice will do a better job than real justice (even if more instantaneous and gratifying for the lymbic part of human's brain.)
 

John Wick

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
440
United Kingdom
Is this a joke post or are you seriously suggesting that if it's not worse than what Trump does, it's ok?

Do you read anything someone writes? I stated above "David Cage has done wrong". Or did you deliberately miss that?
What Cage has or hasn't done or how severe his crime the law will decide not you or me. I'm not overreacting because this is nothing new to me.
It's funny how millions of Americans find Trump to be a hero and fit to be president. Especially in the aftermath of this thread
 

KORNdog

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
8,001
We do know about it because it's been happening for years and years. Look at the sexual harrasment cases going on in Hollywood as an example. Some are dating back to the 1960's. The only reason you wern't aware of it was because the internet wasn't around then and things like that got swept under the carpet.
We've known for years how electrical goods are made in China and the conditions and pay those poor people get. Or young kids in factories in Pakistan or Bangladesh producing clothes and football's. What's been done about it? Nothing. You think the top brass of these huge companies sit there thinking about any of those poor people? Or at their annual shareholder meeting sitting there thinking we should do something about this?
Have we as consumers decided to stop buying said goods??? No! Infact we want more because we're blind to it.
Some of the reactions on here have been comical with no idea of what real life or the real world is like.
Take crunch time for example. A well known time in the games industry. With virtually all studios having some form of it. So why would you work for a company knowing crunch time will occur during development? I'm lazy and don't like working long hours so I've avoided all my working life those hours or getting jobs where I would be working them. I'd be 2-3 times richer easily but it's not for me.

again, all of this is true, but what is your point in the context of quantic dream and the accusations they're facing? what is your angle when your saying other people do it and have done for years?

also, remember, we're on a video game forum, in the video game section, discussion video game developers and publishers and the accusations they're facing. there's a reason people are only talking about QD and ND...they're developers, they fit into the discussion topic whereas the working conditions in china in places like foxconn is a completely different discussion from this one. as i said, you can't change everything instantly. but you can make changes. i'm still not sure what saying "everyone does it" really achieves?
 

Nugnip

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,744
Do you read anything someone writes? I stated above "David Cage has done wrong". Or did you deliberately miss that?
What Cage has or hasn't done or how severe his crime the law will decide not you or me. I'm not overreacting because this is nothing new to me.
It's funny how millions of Americans find Trump to be a hero and fit to be president. Especially in the aftermath of this thread
What I get from your post, is that David Cage has done wrong, but when you compare it to Trump, it's no big deal. And that made me jump. If that's not what you meant, I apologize, but if it is, then you should take some time to reflect on that before calling people out on overreactions.
I agree that competent justice has to do its job. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not likely to keep supporting what QD does until I know more, and if that's overreacting, I'm not sure what to tell you.
 

NinjaTrouiLLe

Member
Nov 27, 2017
702
I'm sorry did I miss some post in this thread where people were defending Trump somewhere?
No you didn't because it didn't happen.

John Wick only emphasises the different of treatment between a president's asshole behavior (which this time is recorded, proven and factual in any sense of the way) and Cage's asshole behavior that has (still) yet to be judged.
The only judgement of value here is the difference of treatment. Doesn't mean he agrees with any of the behavior or supports them.

So no, nothing new under the sun I'm afraid, only people misinterpretting moderated posts to find the slightest agressive mirror of themselves (i guess)
 

massoluk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,573
Thailand
Well that escallated in your mind pretty quickly ;)

I went from "Be careful and let justice decide before coming to hasty conclusion" to "blame it all on SJW Tendencies". If you're seeing a link between these 2 statements, then you should probably read my posts again.

I just said that SJW are not as much a thing in France as they are in other countries, and there is nothing more to understand than that.
Liberation of speach of the victim is a healthy thing, and noone is denying that. Yet given a context, a target that already generates passion it could turn into losing a bit of presumption of innocence that only competent organisms are supposed to investigate on.

If we're ok having collaterals, then so be it, but we have to be perfectly transparent about it right from the get go.

Sad part is that even if these two guys are asshats, i don't think they will most likely not suffer too much from that, situation being the way it is.

As a closing comment, at no place am I casting credit nor discredit on people's suffering, i just prefer to wait, and i respect people who prefer to wait. Because i don't believe social media justice will do a better job than real justice (even if more instantaneous and gratifying for the lymbic part of human's brain.)
FYI, if you use SJW in a totally unironic way, I pre-emptively assume you are one of the worst of people
 

NinjaTrouiLLe

Member
Nov 27, 2017
702
As far as I'm concerned, I'm not likely to keep supporting what QD does until I know more, and if that's overreacting, I'm not sure what to tell you.

And that's your absolute right (and in a sense I support it). Overreaction would be to misinterprete posts of other people on the web making sure to highlight every scrap of moderated speach you don't agree with, which you haven't been doing at all.... right?
 

NinjaTrouiLLe

Member
Nov 27, 2017
702
FYI, if you use SJW in a totally unironic way, I pre-emptively assume the worst of people

Which is your right. I do think some SJW are doing a good thing in denouncing toxic behaviors and fighting for these to stop. It gets out of its way when prefering immediate media justice over competent organism inquiry.

When say it, it has no positive or negative connotation to start with. If in your mind there is by nature a negative connotation, I'm not sure what I can do about it.
 

MajinArekkusu

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
427
Germany
I never liked any of his games. Always thought they were overhyped, and he sure as hell doesn't try to evolve them in any way gameplay wise whatsoever. It is still the same formula with maybe more outcomes added. And boy don't get me started on his horrendous writing and all them EMOTIONS.

Had no plans to buy Detroit on release anyway.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
Which is your right. I do think some SJW are doing a good thing in denouncing toxic behaviors and fighting for these to stop. It gets out of its way when prefering immediate media justice over competent organism inquiry.

When say it, it has no positive or negative connotation to start with. If in your mind there is by nature a negative connotation, I'm not sure what I can do about it.
It's actually probably most people on the internet who aren't alt right or gamer gators will immediately make an assumption about you based on your non-ironic use of SJW. I tend to completely disregard someone's opinion when I see those letters thrown around, it's heavily associated with people who say "cuck" and constantly are dog-whistling their racist and misogynistic world-views.

When I see someone non-ironically say SJW, I assume they align with gamergate basically, and that they denounce "modern feminism", "PC Culture had gone too far" and all of those toxic kind of ideas. Maybe ask yourself "do I want to associate myself with that?" Before you try to justify your usage of the term.
 

Marmoka

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,010
First off, because again, QD is not "full" of people like these, most likely you would put innocent people out of work (aside from depriving gamers on awaited games)

I really hope many people at QD are not like this. Whatever, there are enough evidences there's many people like this there, and many victims who still work there. There are two options here: all these toxic people, directives included, get fired from QD right now, or shut down that development studio forever. I feel sad for the innocent workers who have been suffering all these, but things cannot go on like this any more, something must be done. I don't know what's the best solution here, I'm not an specialist in company management and working rights, all I know is that the situation is very complex because it's not just the company directives, there are many employees full of shit as well. But we could all find another job for the affected ones, and screw the rest.

Second because these miss steps happen in other studios, and setting an example for the sake of it would have to be done everywhere, meaning other potential close downs for many studios.

And so we shouldn't do nothing? You said it: these miss steps happen in other studios. And this is a huge problem we all must fight for. We cannot sit down on our sofas and do nothing because this happens everywhere and so it's normal. Better force the closure of an studio than having an studio full of toxic people.

Third because Sony has nothing to do with internal afairs of a 3rd party developer, and in this case should not even emit any opinion.

Of course Sony has a lot to do with other 3rd parties, because this time Sony is founding this game, Sony is giving money to the studio, and the ones who get all the benefits are Cage and other directives. Right now Sony knows what is going on here, and if they still continue giving money to this guy, then they become conplicits. They become part of the problem as well.

Responsible people should be punished (again, if proven guilty) in an appropriate manner, but it should be left at that. It makes no sense wiping out several years of work, usage of time and resources, just because a small minority of people are misbehaving.

It's a shame to throw to the trash all the work invested for this game in the latest years. But right now the best thing they can do it to give full priority to their own principles and values, and stop colaborating on this. What's more important for you? The rights and working condicitions of people? Or money?

And this is not the end of the world. Why not just helping the affected ones open a new studio and continuing the job, or developing another similar game that could be considered an spiritual successor? There's a new game here made by people who all work in a studio which has a great atmosphere. And Sony doesn't have to feel the weight of having founded a game where the working conditions were below human dignity.
 

NinjaTrouiLLe

Member
Nov 27, 2017
702
It's actually probably most people on the internet who aren't alt right or gamer gators will immediately make an assumption about you based on your non-ironic use of SJW. I tend to completely disregard someone's opinion when I see those letters thrown around, it's heavily associated with people who say "cuck" and constantly are dog-whistling their racist and misogynistic world-views.

When I see someone non-ironically say SJW, I assume they align with gamergate basically, and that they denounce "modern feminism", "PC Culture had gone too far" and all of those toxic kind of ideas. Maybe ask yourself "do I want to associate myself with that?" Before you try to justify your usage of the term.

That's fine. So how am I supposed to name people who are doing good for the cause they fight without relying on social media snowball justice. I stongly believe we can advocate ideas without the "instant punishment" mindset.? (You might laugh, but that's a genuine question I'm asking).

Now on a more practical matter, would that systematically make my opinion wrong if 99% of the rest of the post could potentially make sense?
 

ArmsofSleep

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,833
Washington DC
I can't say that this is a huge surprise. I'm not the type of person to be like "well yeah his games were bad so of course he's a bad person!" but their are some REALLY iffy things in his games wrt gender and race and politics. And the interviews/reactions after these stories came out are even more illuminating.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
Which is your right. I do think some SJW are doing a good thing in denouncing toxic behaviors and fighting for these to stop. It gets out of its way when prefering immediate media justice over competent organism inquiry.

When say it, it has no positive or negative connotation to start with. If in your mind there is by nature a negative connotation, I'm not sure what I can do about it.
SJW has a negative connotation since the inception of the word. I's a strawman pejorative invented by Gamergaters and the alt-right. Of course one can own it like many opressed groups have owned the insults used against them, but... It's a pejorative. So if you use it, many will see it as an indicator that you are talking in bad faith.
 
OP
OP
Maxime

Maxime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,981
Apparently SONY is taking the matter and allegations seriously.

They blacklisted one of the journalists who reported on the story.

 

Marmoka

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,010
The president of America is far far worse than what I've read about David Cage. Yet he's absolutely fine running the country isn't he? How many women have accused Trump of sexual harassment???
David Cage has done wrong but lets put things into context. The overreactionss are comical. Let justice sort it out. If it's that bad then more will come forward. Let's stop blaming Sony for a few bad apples at QD.

Please somebody tell me this is a joke post.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
Cage always seemed pretty oblivious, even more so when Detroit was revealed. "What if....robots are a minority, and now THEY'RE the ones being persecuted!"

He says it like it's this ground breaking concept he's invented, while everyone else is like "uhhh.....yeah...welcome to the last 30 years of sci-fi my dude."
 

NoTime

Member
Oct 30, 2017
250
And this is not the end of the world. Why not just helping the affected ones open a new studio and continuing the job, or developing another similar game that could be considered an spiritual successor? There's a new game here made by people who all work in a studio which has a great atmosphere.

Because this is business and not charity. I'm not saying it's morally right, but no one will throw 30 or whatever millions into the bin, and add some more money on top, to fund whole new studio and game, because of what happened. I'm not trying to justify what happened (if proven), but I'm afraid, that far worse things probably wouldn't affect studio as a whole. Also as some people stated above the is France and not USA, so there is cultural and ethical difference of how we perceive of what happened. Generally speaking France is far less progressive on the matter of subject.

And Sony doesn't have to feel the weight of having founded a game where the working conditions were below human dignity.

I hope you are exaggerating and don't mean literally below human dignity. Otherwise people would've just leave the company long time ago. It's not like they are enslaved to work there.
 

NinjaTrouiLLe

Member
Nov 27, 2017
702
. I don't know what's the best solution here, I'm not an specialist in company management and working rights,

This I pretty much figured out ;), there are shades of gray in the treatment of these matters. Bigass fines are pretty common (not necessarily given back to the victims in France, but to the state), then if victims want a part in it, they can constitute the equivalent of a class action in NA. Combining both works pretty well, and even if game gets released and people keep their jobs, that's gonna seriously hurt themm. Labor inspection and tribunal will always try to keep businesses running. The other way is to actually not buying the game, in which case you punish both Sony and QD, without hurting workers too much.

And so we shouldn't do nothing? You said it: these miss steps happen in other studios. And this is a huge problem we all must fight for. We cannot sit down on our sofas and do nothing because this happens everywhere and so it's normal. Better force the closure of an studio than having an studio full of toxic people.

Nobody said we should do nothing. But second step to solve a problem is to understand where it comes from. Applying a ground zero and potentially destructive policy never helps. Counter reactions are strong, and collaterals are huge, and it clearly marginalize the victims we want to help in the first place. History is full of examples. Means to hurt wrongdoing people exist, social media instant justice is not one of them in my opinion.


Of course Sony has a lot to do with other 3rd parties, because this time Sony is founding this game, Sony is giving money to the studio, and the ones who get all the benefits are Cage and other directives. Right now Sony knows what is going on here, and if they still continue giving money to this guy, then they become conplicits. They become part of the problem as well.

Here's my guess: For sony that's only a PR issue that will settle down by itself (QD and french legislation will handle it, whatever the outcome). There is that. AND in a contract such as they have I strongly doubt they can end it upon this without paying substantial damages to QD, especially this close to release.
Let's say game is completed at 90% now, and problems happened at 80% of development time, should QD give the money back? And if that's the case and game still gets released, will sony also cut the incomes they were supposed to have? And if sony gets money out of it, should they refuse it?
I'm just throwing very initial basic question on responsibility share, and it's already a mess.


It's a shame to throw to the trash all the work invested for this game in the latest years. But right now the best thing they can do it to give full priority to their own principles and values, and stop colaborating on this. What's more important for you? The rights and working condicitions of people? Or money?

Single gradients judgment of values is not something I abide to. Let me give you other gradients: Working principles VS ease to find another job if I get fired as an individual who did nothing. Evolution of VideoGame medium VS health and safety during cruch periods.
How do you place these gradients on top of the one you gave me? I can at least see half a dozen gradients for decision making in this case.

And this is not the end of the world. Why not just helping the affected ones open a new studio and continuing the job, or developing another similar game that could be considered an spiritual successor? There's a new game here made by people who all work in a studio which has a great atmosphere. And Sony doesn't have to feel the weight of having founded a game where the working conditions were below human dignity.

Again, not that simple, spiritual successor will never gather as much audience, good luck finding a project lead with a similar vision that can delivery the same work again, from scratch (because even if sony owns the IP, the assets are QD property, Im not sure but it's very likely)... and again, game releases early this year.
 

Get_crazy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
657
Did this Facebook post has been already shared here? It's from a QD employee warning people (presumably in a VG group) about those articles before they were published and asking not to believe anything from those, even asking influencers to call out these articles as fake news on their social media.

 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
Can QD survive this? I wasn't crazy for their games, but it would be sad to see them go, despite this all being true, they do manage to put out some decentish games.

Absolutely terrible opinion. The guy knows absolutely jackshit about storytelling, has all these smart-ass remarks within all his games and is just flat out embarrassment to the whole video game industry. He is nowhere near the legacy of either Kojima or Mikami.
I'd say they are all equally terrible when it comes to directing (as in a movie director). If anything David Cage comes out on top against the other two, despite his obvious shortcomings.