• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,176
I'm all for in depth criticism but I just don't see many people on ERA watching a five hour critique about a game as beloved as P5.

The only thing I can say is Persona 5's story and characters deeply affected me on a level almost no other video game I've played has and it's a contender for my all time favorite game. Liking a game is just a matter of whether or not the good stuff overshadows the bad. I know that sounds simple but I feel like that gets kinda lost in the weeds, like people expect one or two big flaws to be the smoking gun, when that isn't the case for everyone.

I could certainly break down my misgivings with Persona 5 as a game, there are quite a few - but as an overall experience, it's one of the best I've ever played through. Those 100 hours flew by.

MatthewMatosis videos are long because his analysis is meticulous and detailed, not because of a lack of editing. Every point of criticism or analysis builds to a larger thesis in his videos. You can't just say "well MatthewMatosis has long videos and this video is long too" as if that equates the actual content of the video.

Agreed. Also, Matt rarely (never?) has videos over an hour long. Perfect for running on the treadmill if you ask me!
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
Noah Caldwell-Gervais did the entire Call of Duty series in less than half the time. So far it definitely feels like this could have been condensed and still made the same points
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,016
Game is too long and everything after the first amazing story arc is just not great story wise, it's a shame because everything else is amazing.

I LOVE the Kamoshida arc so much. It's so personal and believable, after that it's just.... weird and impersonal. I also think the Futaba part is good.
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
If the suggestion of style over substance applies mainly to the writing, then yeah I would agree.

If that criticism is being applied to game mechanics and dungeon design...I strongly disagree. P5 is a massive improvement over the previous games in terms of presentation, UI design, gameplay systems, integration of social links into the gameplay, battle system, dungeon design, etc.

Basically the one big area in which P5 falls short is in the plot and character writing. Otherwise it's a huge improvement over previous entries.
I didn't watch the video so I don't know, but is he comparing the entries? Does he even like them? I never considered the gameplay part in P3 or P4 to be good honestly, not a fan of the simplified Megaten battle system and the dungeons are mediocre, so even if P5 is considered a general improvement over these, I can see people still not liking these aspects.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,176
Come to think of it, Matthewmatosis is a Persona fan. I'd love to hear his own breakdown of this game (or the others).
 

Deleted member 29195

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
402
I'm currently watching because this is something I'm very interested in. One problem with videos like this is that responding to anything besides the length will take ~5 hours haha.

It's not that the video is too long, but that its length causes it to lack focus. It shouldn't take 5 hours to describe the issues with Persona 5, and then show examples of them in action. If one were to focus on only a few examples instead, they'd leave the majority of time for their own analysis. This video attempts to highlight every problem in Persona 5 but I'm worried it isn't able to say anything bigger about the game because it's stuck in the details.

Can anyone who has watched more of the video comment on its thesis or main argument? Since the video is so long, such information would be very useful.
 

StoveOven

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,234
I originally wrote a pretty critical post of the form and then figured I should actually watch some of the video if I'm going to say this much about it. I watched the beginning and about half of the S-Link sections (jumping around), and I wasn't very impressed.

He makes plenty of good points, but there are a lot of bad ones too. There's way too much of a focus on "logical consistency" in regards to how characters act, without recognizing that people aren't always logical. And while I didn't much care for mementos either, and I thought his emphasis on how it takes agency away from the characters was interesting, a.) he just keeps repeating the same point over and over and b.) I think there should have been some recognition of how it's sometimes good to get help from people capable of helping you. He really cares about whether or not characters are solving their own problems, which, y'know, there's a point to be made there, but the specific way he kept framing it felt super judgy. It was less "this character has no say" and more "this character isn't doing anything". I also think he's wrong about like half of the specific interpretations he makes.

He's also just way too impressed with himself. He starts with how the video couldn't have been cut down (and with how he's the first person to ever criticize P5, which, no), yet he makes the same point about mementos about 16 times and goes on multiple tirades where he'll ask a half-dozen rhetorical, redundant questions about a minor plot inconsistency. Like, yeah dude, you could have used an editor.

I don't even like this game. I'm an easy mark for a video like this, and yet he couldn't even get me.

Anyway, below is the post I originally wrote, which is more about longform essays in general. Spending an hour with Cvit didn't change my mind on any of it.

Somebody upthread mentioned nitpicks, and that's my issue with most of these "longform" essayists (and there are critics I genuinely like who fall into this trap sometimes too). They focus on so many specific details that in a lot of ways obfuscate the larger point being made (or, in a lot of cases, distract from the fact that there is no larger point). It's like a math problem where if they can prove that there are a certain number of "bad things" within the work of art, then they also prove that the art is bad, which is apparently the only thing criticism is good for. This is why at the absolute worst end of the "longform" spectrum you'll find idiots claiming to be "objective art critics".

There are of course exceptions who use longform video well, but using it well doesn't mean providing an insurmountable list of examples that only serve to prove a very simplistic point. I have not watched this video, but looking at the structure laid out in the timestamps and seeing how people are responding in the thread doesn't give me any desire to either.

You could probably do a good series of videos where you went through each S-Link and each video was well thought out and had its own point (and maybe there's even an overarching one at the end). But talking about them all in this one grand video about the game means that they all have to serve whatever larger point the critic is making about the game, which reduces each one to simply an example and probably also limits the range of conclusions you can come to. (You could also do the opposite: make one video with a point about the S-Links, but then you should pick-and-choose key examples, not exhaustively catalogue them). And then the second part of the video being organized by the narrative order of the dungeons: Again you could probably do a series about that, but more significantly, chronological criticism of a narrative is often worthless. Like, if there's some thematic connection you see between Madarame, Futaba, and Shido's dungeons, then talk about that theme and how it translates across them. Don't wait around and talk about the same theme three times in three different parts of your critique. It blunts the message and pads the runtime.

Idk, that's just some friendly advice I'd give someone making a video like this. I want there to be more good games crit on youtube and appreciate the ambition these people have, but I think all the time and effort that obviously went into something like this could be better spent on something more focused.

(insert joke about long-ass post complaining about long-ass videos here)
 

Son of Sparda

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,617
In some cases, there are situations where the person couldn't fight back without still getting screwed over since unfortunately, that's how some situations are. Kawakami's is an example of this where she couldn't do so without likely getting fired from her job. Sojiro's was an excellent subversion of this where he ends up dealing with the issue since they used mementos too late.
While I don't agree that there wasn't anything that Kawakami could've done on her own (she could've tried to get some evidence of blackmail and then use that to make them back off), even if that was the case and she was in an unwinnable situation, I think having the character face the mistakes they made (in case of Kawakami, letting them blackmail her and becoming a maid to pay them instead of standing her ground from the get go) and dealing with the consequences is a much better way of handling these side stories than magically fixing everything up for the character.

Even if you want to have Joker and PT fix the problems the confidants have, at least make the confidants fight their own battle with PT coming to their help as a support. In the game tho most of the confidants feel like they just give up when the going gets too hard in which point they are helpless until something magically happens in their life which would be Joker stealing the hearts of people that are causing them problems.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I didn't watch the video so I don't know, but is he comparing the entries? Does he even like them? I never considered the gameplay part in P3 or P4 to be good honestly, not a fan of the simplified Megaten battle system and the dungeons are mediocre, so even if P5 is considered a general improvement over these, I can see people still not liking these aspects.
No idea, I have yet to watch it. Imo P5 has better dungeons than most JRPGs and a very good battle system compared to most games in the genre.
 

Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,288
Posting on this thread again, I find it very ironic that these fans of a 100-hour game are complaining about the length of a 5-hour long video.

Noah Caldwell-Gervais did the entire Call of Duty series in less than half the time. So far it definitely feels like this could have been condensed and still made the same points
Each Call of Duty campaign is only around 5-7 hours. And completely linear, with no side content.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
Posting on this thread again, I find it very ironic that these fans of a 100-hour game are complaining about the length of a 5-hour long video.


Each Call of Duty campaign is only around 5-7 hours. And completely linear, with no side content.
That's still a dozen games plus the overall series analysis. Take his videos on the fallout games or the mass effect trilogy instead then.
 

Trisc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,489
Noah Caldwell-Gervais did the entire Call of Duty series in less than half the time. So far it definitely feels like this could have been condensed and still made the same points
You don't know the half of video essay 'tube. These folks can put their thoughts to paper with remarkable skill and orate them effectively and clearly (in spite of how difficult and harsh it can be on your voice to speak for hours nonstop) over their own video footage they've edited to synchronize with the subject matter.

Heaven forbid they hire someone to edit and condense said thoughts, though. Some of them even make it a selling point, as if I'm fine with dedicating nearly half of my waking day to a single video.

 

Glass Arrows

Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,414
You don't know the half of video essay 'tube. These folks can put their thoughts to paper with remarkable skill and orate them effectively and clearly (in spite of how difficult and harsh it can be on your voice to speak for hours nonstop) over their own video footage they've edited to synchronize with the subject matter.

Heaven forbid they hire someone to edit and condense said thoughts, though. Some of them even make it a selling point, as if I'm fine with dedicating nearly half of my waking day to a single video.

Haha, I've seen that video pop up on my recommendations multiple times and every single time I'm like "jesus how even???".
 

peppersky

Banned
Mar 9, 2018
1,174
I mean, ultimately the game isn't attempting to present a thesis on every single issue it tackles, it is merely using them as vehicles to tell a wish-fullfilment narrative about change. The solutions it employs are largely unrealistic because it is a pulpy escapist rpg about teenage super heroes fighting for good, aimed largely at a teenage/YA audience.
I just feel that it could be so much more than that. There's a lot of young adult novels that deal with similar themes as Persona 5 in a much more thorough realistic way. I just think that they could've really made a fucking amazing game if they had gone those two or three steps further. The director himself has said that he wants to instill "winsdom" to the player and I think that when it comes to the issues brought up in Persona 5 (like a facist becoming the prime minister of Japan) you cannot aim high enough in that regard.

I really just want to see some indie studio take the structure of Persona, remove the dungeons and add some more inspired writing. The ambition was certainly there in Persona 5, but it's just spread so thin. If this game had just been about a single year in the life of a few teenagers, their problems and them growing up together, and had left out all of the metaphysical bullshit it would have been a much stronger game, and I don't think it would have lost any of it's appeal.
 

AgentLampshade

Sweet Commander
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,311
Just finished it. I agree with all of his translation issues, quite a lot of his character critique (even if he repeated himself over and over), very little of his gameplay issues (you can't complain about lack of gameplay variety then complain about a boss fight that forces you to change your strategy, nor do Makoto and Ann have the exact same powerset sans elemental differences) and virtually none of his story complaints, which I found to be overly nitpicky. He didn't seem to realize that repeating puzzles would have killed the already-iffy pacing of the Palaces, and kept getting hung up on Makoto being pretty clever for some reason.

Overall I guess I respect the effort that went into the video and he has a clear, presentable voice, but the tone changing from critical to downright hostile left me with a bitter taste. You've heard all his complaints before, in far more digestible forms.
 

Deleted member 2474

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,318
Anyway, I watched just the part about the morals of the game and definitely agree with most of it. The game is almost completely nonsensical in it's message. Like I do think it's admirable in that it actually tries to tackle social issues, but the way it goes about it is absurd. Every time they try to tackle the problem like actual real-life-teenagers would they completely fail. It's only due to their magical abilities that they can ever affect change. I really don't know what kind of lesson you are supposed to take from it.

A better game that was trying to tackle the same societal issues would have actually tried to show he protagonists tackle the underlying issues, like power structures, patriarchy, capitalism, wealth inequality and so on. In Persona 5 however they basically just change the few random bad people they come in contact with, just making room for other people to come in and abuse their power as well.

I guess it's difficult to criticize society in such a way when you are also trying to write a story in such a way that it gets people to buy as much merch as possible.

a couple of things here. the first is that, quite frankly, i don't know how you could possibly write a "realistic" story in which teenagers solve patriarchy and capitalism and wealth inequality, because these are obviously unsolved and rampant problems in the real world. if anything i'd argue it's much more realistic that they completely fail to stop kamoshida in the real world, depressing as that may be. perhaps that's not a very positive and heartening message to send, but i think it's closer to the truth. in that sense, p5 is indeed, as Lynx_7 put it, wish fulfillment - here's a villain you couldn't normally do shit against. wouldn't it be great if there was some way to fuck him up?

i also think your point about how "they basically just change a few random bad people and say that solves the problem, when really that just leaves room for other people to come in, and thus the game fails to acknowledge the larger underlying issues with society" ignores the entire last arc of the game, which is about exactly this.
just as you say, even after changing shido's heart, nothing really changes, because everyone around him is also corrupt, from other politicians to law enforcement to the media. the whole point of the "depths of mementos" story is to say that society has become utterly desensitized to the constant fucked up shit happening around us, and that most people would rather just sit back and let it happen because they don't want to do anything that might affect their own personal comfort and stability in life - which creates exactly the sort of environment ripe for abusers and fascists and so on to take charge with no one stopping them.

but at the same time, the game is not entirely hopeless about all this. the solution the game posits is to (wake up, get up,) get out there and make some noise. more than taking out individual villains, that's really what the phantom thieves accomplish - make a huge show of fighting back against these villains to inspire more and more people to fight back as well. that's kind of the whole point of the "qliphoth world" and yaldabaoth story, where the thieves and their confidants start waking everyone up to how fucked up everything is and start inspiring people to take action.

and the game doesn't neglect to translate all this to real world actions, either. as morgana says before disappearing, it's not just the metaverse that's shaped by the hearts of people, but the real world, too - the world is what we make of it, and if enough people want to change it then it can be changed. the phantom thieves and their confidants demonstrate this when joker is thrown in jail, by using everything in their power to prove him innocent and rally up protests to support him.

honestly i think the game is a lot more thoughtful about this stuff than people give it credit for
 

Xeteh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,387
Just finished it. I agree with all of his translation issues, quite a lot of his character critique (even if he repeated himself over and over), very little of his gameplay issues (you can't complain about lack of gameplay variety then complain about a boss fight that forces you to change your strategy, nor do Makoto and Ann have the exact same powerset sans elemental differences) and virtually none of his story complaints, which I found to be overly nitpicky. He didn't seem to realize that repeating puzzles would have killed the already-iffy pacing of the Palaces, and kept getting hung up on Makoto being pretty clever for some reason.

Overall I guess I respect the effort that went into the video and he has a clear, presentable voice, but the tone changing from critical to downright hostile left me with a bitter taste. You've heard all his complaints before, in far more digestible forms.

Thanks for taking one for the team.
 

MrWindUpBird

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,686
If the suggestion of style over substance applies mainly to the writing, then yeah I would agree.

If that criticism is being applied to game mechanics and dungeon design...I strongly disagree. P5 is a massive improvement over the previous games in terms of presentation, UI design, gameplay systems, integration of social links into the gameplay, battle system, dungeon design, etc.

Basically the one big area in which P5 falls short is in the plot and character writing. Otherwise it's a huge improvement over previous entries.
Seeing as the Persona games are glorified visual novels, I would say that falling short on story and character writing is a big deal.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I started listening, and honestly some of this is some petty shit. We're complaining about them using "yakisoba pan" or "kumade", are we? Since when is persona games using actual japanese cultural words in the english dialogue new or bad? The game has enough actual errors in the writing (and this 5 hour video with a 1 minute long title card for each section is long enough) to not need to pad it out with this.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
I started listening, and honestly some of this is some petty shit. We're complaining about them using "yakisoba pan" or "kumade", are we? Since when is persona games using actual japanese cultural words in the english dialogue new or bad? The game has enough actual errors in the writing (and this 5 hour video with a 1 minute long title card for each section is long enough) to not need to pad it out with this.
Two other instances of pan are translated to bread in the exact same menu screen. He's not just complaining about the lack of translation, he's complaining about the inconsistency.

Also pan is not a "cultural word". It's bread. You translate it just like you translate most other words in a Japanese to English translation.
 

Kupo Kupopo

Member
Jul 6, 2019
2,959
Anyway, I watched just the part about the morals of the game and definitely agree with most of it. The game is almost completely nonsensical in it's message. Like I do think it's admirable in that it actually tries to tackle social issues, but the way it goes about it is absurd. Every time they try to tackle the problem like actual real-life-teenagers would they completely fail. It's only due to their magical abilities that they can ever affect change. I really don't know what kind of lesson you are supposed to take from it.

A better game that was trying to tackle the same societal issues would have actually tried to show he protagonists tackle the underlying issues, like power structures, patriarchy, capitalism, wealth inequality and so on. In Persona 5 however they basically just change the few random bad people they come in contact with, just making room for other people to come in and abuse their power as well.

I guess it's difficult to criticize society in such a way when you are also trying to write a story in such a way that it gets people to buy as much merch as possible.

weirdly enough, the only part i watched, as well. watched it because it's the main issue that turned me off to the whole game (well, that & the mostly terrible cast). unlike the previous persona games, this one, at it's core, just felt totally vapid to me: overly-simplistic, pedestrian, & ultimately empty. i mean, you want trite? how about 'terrible, irredeemably evil adults are foiled/changed by morally upstanding, self-righteous kids!'...

by the time i'd finished playing the game, i was having a hard time believing that anyone involved in the other persona games had had anything to do with p5. the game, to me, actually felt more like a big budget knock-off of the series by another developer...
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,278
Two other instances of pan are translated to bread in the exact same menu screen. He's not just complaining about the lack of translation, he's complaining about the inconsistency.

Also pan is not a "cultural word". It's bread. You translate it just like you translate most other words in a Japanese to English translation.

modern persona has always been inconsistent. like, literally all the teachers are called Mr/Ms/Mrs instead of -sensei, despite the weird obsession with using honorifics that plague every other aspect of the localisations.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
Two other instances of pan are translated to bread in the exact same menu screen. He's not complaining about the lack of translation, he's complaining about the inconsistency.

Also "pan" is not a fucking "cultural word". It's bread.
Yakisoba pan is a cultural word because that's what the sandwich is called, while the other two in the menu are more generic. One usually doesn't translate proper noun food names. He also complained about kumade and monjayaki not being translated or explained right after, which is why I bundled them together about petty complaints about cultural words not being translated.
 

Basileus777

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,203
New Jersey
I listened to a good portion of this and its main problem is actually pretty similar to the work it is critiquing, he spends way too much time repeating himself and summarizing stuff we already know. There's probably a decent 45 minute video in this if you cut out all the bloat, but alas.
 

KingM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,480
Posting on this thread again, I find it very ironic that these fans of a 100-hour game are complaining about the length of a 5-hour long video.


Each Call of Duty campaign is only around 5-7 hours. And completely linear, with no side content.
There's no irony. Watching a five hour critique is fundamentally different than playing a 100 hour game. It's no different than a fan of a film having no interest in reading a 100 page essay about Kurosawa's "Dreams" or a fan of Zeppelin having no interest in watching a 20 minute critique of II.

When engaged with the work you like it is exciting and refreshing. A five hour critique can feel nitpicky and tiresome. As time is limited people want to engage with something they like, or at least expect to like, and not something they think will be a waste of time that is trying to tell them what they enjoy is bad. Especially when the title is designed to get a strong reaction out of the gate.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I listened to a good portion of this and its main problem is actually pretty similar to the work it is critiquing, he spends way too much time repeating himself and summarizing stuff we already know. There's probably a decent 45 minute video in this if you cut out all the bloat, but alas.
It doesn't help that he starts off by saying "yes, it had to be this long. I couldn't cut anything"
 
Game is too long and everything after the first amazing story arc is just not great story wise, it's a shame because everything else is amazing.

I LOVE the Kamoshida arc so much. It's so personal and believable, after that it's just.... weird and impersonal. I also think the Futaba part is good.
+1 to this. If Persona 6 could stick to that style of social commentary the whole way through, it'll be a huge improvement over 5. Modern Persona needs more consistency and concern with its writing.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
I listened to a good portion of this and its main problem is actually pretty similar to the work it is critiquing, he spends way too much time repeating himself and summarizing stuff we already know. There's probably a decent 45 minute video in this if you cut out all the bloat, but alas.
Honestly you could just skip to the end talking about the morals of the game; it's easily the most effective part of the video and really gets to the core of how uncomfortable the marriage of serious social commentary to vapid wish fulfillment is.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
Style over substance isn't really a bad thing though. If it works it works and for the most part I think it works in persona 5. However I think the major problem of the game is at a way too long and the story is dumb and had some problems
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
I'm not spending 5 hours watching this, but arguing that the game is style over substance bothers me. There was tons of substance for me and it's my favorite Persona game (played 3 Portable and FES, 4 Golden, and 5). I liked the longer dungeons, I thought Mementos was fun as well. Only thing I had a problem with was being sent to bed instead of having evenings open far too often.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
He's totally fucking right about Futaba's English dialogue making no sense for the type of character she is.
 

Uthred

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,567
There's no excuse for the critique being five hours long. Its self indulgent to the point of being masturbatory.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
Persona 4 is one of my favorite games of all time, and Persona 3 was noticeably near its level when i played it shortly after

Persona 5 is one of the most disappointing games ive ever played and simply stopped after 30 hours when i was finally able to admit to myself that i wasn't enjoying it
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
He's totally fucking right about Futaba's English dialogue making no sense for the type of character she is.
Reference repositories always make terrible characters. And wtf is up with the whole Kana thing? It's clear the creative team wasn't equippred to deal with that sort of subject matter.
 

Jane

Member
Oct 17, 2018
1,263
Disclaimer: haven't watched video

I love Persona 5, but I somewhat agree with "style over substance". I think what makes the game stand out so much is its style, including the visuals, animations, music, and so on. Let's be real, the gameplay is not very good and is very much carried by everything else.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.