Reposting this for a new page, since it's easily the best part of the video.
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Cvit - Persona 5: Style Over Substance, a 5 hour long P5 analysis video.
- Thread starter ShadowAUS
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I watched around 1 hour of the video, skipping around a bit but I think I got the idea of everything.
I think it's a well done video and I agree, Persona 5 is super stylish and I like it, but it's just not that great and it sucks because I want to love it so much more than I do.
I think it's a well done video and I agree, Persona 5 is super stylish and I like it, but it's just not that great and it sucks because I want to love it so much more than I do.
Im interested in watching the video as someone who's currently going through persona 5 and it's my first persona game.
Im really enjoying it but the more I play it the more issues tend to arise. I expected more from the way they handled futaba's isolation and depression and the fact she was able to enter her own subconscious with no kind of detrimental effect. Just finished the palace for haru's dad and so far she seems fairly easy going about what transpired.
Im really enjoying it but the more I play it the more issues tend to arise. I expected more from the way they handled futaba's isolation and depression and the fact she was able to enter her own subconscious with no kind of detrimental effect. Just finished the palace for haru's dad and so far she seems fairly easy going about what transpired.
I mean, I'd argue the gameplay is one of the best parts about P5. I certainly wouldn't have finished the game if the battle system wasn't as well-rounded as it was. The core issues with P5 100% have to do with its story and characterization IMO.
These YouTube critics keep getting dumber eh? Sure there's plenty of issues with how the story is handled but there is a lot of "substance" in the game from having better fleshed out side characters and social links for them to the combat and Persona themselves to the dungeons even if some of them got tedious. Miss me with that 5 hour video repeating yourself shit.
It's probably the best out of P3/4/5 (which isn't saying much), but when you compare it to something like FFX (a comparison the guy actually makes in the video which I am in the process of watching), it's really pretty simple and shallow. I think the best thing about Persona's RPG gameplay is the Persona fusing aspect but it's unfortunate that it's only limited to the main character. You can't really build your team to handle encounters in your own unique way like you can in other RPGs.
Probably not going to sit through five hours of this, but it's hard to argue with the TLDR. As someone said, while it is the best looking of the series by default, and has the most refinement in terms of things to do and accessibility, everything else about it feels REALLY lacking from the story overall (woefully bad, and this isn't even compared to P4 or P3) to the sense of friendship amongst the Thieves (wooing Yukiko felt far more worthwhile than any of the romance options in P5).
Still a game I completed and enjoyed my time with, but there was definitely something missing from the effort that I hope is recovered in the next game (however long it will take for that to come out).
Still a game I completed and enjoyed my time with, but there was definitely something missing from the effort that I hope is recovered in the next game (however long it will take for that to come out).
Translation errors are legitimate problems, y'know. And I wholeheartedly agree with the "honorifics" thing. Holy shit, it's annoying.
I think the biggest advantage in terms of gameplay that SMT games have over Persona is their customizability; Your entire TEAM is completely up to you, and their movesets are your choice as well.
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I know translation errors are legitimate problems, I just don't think all of the things he was listing in that section were errors, as much as a style choice. Choosing to not rename japanese things of cultural note with "fried noodle sandwich" or "lucky broom" or whatever. "Yakisoba pan" is the name of a sandwich, whereas "bread" and "bread with jam" are more generic, so I can see why they would translate the pan to bread in two out of the three. Same with "aojiru" not being turned into "green juice" when aojiru is a specific green juice drink to japan that has history. Not over translating Japanese cultural things, and leaning into "this is japan" is part of persona's whole deal since 3.
Not being consistent with the honorifics—and those first pass translation lines—are some of the actual errors I was talking about. If they're going to make that choice, they need to be consistent with it, or not do it.
People on this forum barely ever read the full OP, let alone going to listen to a 5 hour video.
The annoying thing is that, as flawed as p3 and 4 were, 3's flaws are more understandable in the context of p3 taking things in a new direction, and 4 does an admirable job with addressing some flaws in a short turnaround after 3.
After as long as they had between 4 and 5, there should have been a bigger leap in quality than the one that we got.
So I let this play in the background while I was doing art and while I LOVE Personal 5 overall, I can't completely fault the author with the exception of the lack of some severe editing. Many points he made were made more than once. This video could have been condensed into 2 hours and very little would have been lost, but many of the points he makes are quite valid IMO, esp. about the game's morals as well as the topic of Akechi (I metaphorically threw my hands up and shouted WTF when that whole part came up in the game).
I think his title poorly reflects his opinion. Based on what I listened to the phrase he's looking for isn't "Style over Substance," but rather "Great Style but Inconsistent Substance," because it seems that his overall biggest critique about the various aspects of P5 is how the game's stories and characterizations can be greatly inconsistent with one another
And this is indeed a valid point.
I think the author got so caught up in showing *every* last inconsistency in the game he didn't consider whether he needed to describe each one in excruciating detail.
I think his title poorly reflects his opinion. Based on what I listened to the phrase he's looking for isn't "Style over Substance," but rather "Great Style but Inconsistent Substance," because it seems that his overall biggest critique about the various aspects of P5 is how the game's stories and characterizations can be greatly inconsistent with one another
(i.e. Chapter 1 deals with sexual abuse, Chapter 2 has a gag about making Anne pose nude for Yusuke)
I think the author got so caught up in showing *every* last inconsistency in the game he didn't consider whether he needed to describe each one in excruciating detail.
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A lot of series with passionate fanbases are like this. Final Fantasy, Zelda, Mario, Halo. Doesn't matter really. A lot of times it's even people who like the game, just not as much as previous entries in the series. Doesn't have anything to do with being offended.
I also think overall Persona 4 is better than 5 and I'll watch this video to see their reasoning, because I can put some of my problems with the game into words, but not all.
Watched about two hours the other day.
They're kinda spot on about the dungeon design and combat loops. It makes absolutely no sense why Joker dying is an instant game over, and I do feel overall the dungeons are really poorly designed. Part of me would rather go through Persona 4's random dungeons rather than Persona 5.
I can't disagree with the social links either. Mementos totally sucks, and is used as a crutch even when it's rarely necessary. Ann and Makoto are two of the worst SLinks in this franchise, period. I like both characters well enough in the main story but their confidants are awful. I also agree that Yusuke and Haru are some of the best confidants (I never did the politician one), and it really sucks that Haru is introduced so late.
I'll be watching more later on, but my instant thought is the video kinda delves into a lot of the sour aftertaste I had after beating the game.
They're kinda spot on about the dungeon design and combat loops. It makes absolutely no sense why Joker dying is an instant game over, and I do feel overall the dungeons are really poorly designed. Part of me would rather go through Persona 4's random dungeons rather than Persona 5.
I can't disagree with the social links either. Mementos totally sucks, and is used as a crutch even when it's rarely necessary. Ann and Makoto are two of the worst SLinks in this franchise, period. I like both characters well enough in the main story but their confidants are awful. I also agree that Yusuke and Haru are some of the best confidants (I never did the politician one), and it really sucks that Haru is introduced so late.
I'll be watching more later on, but my instant thought is the video kinda delves into a lot of the sour aftertaste I had after beating the game.
but they disagree with the "thesis" so their opinions are informed on the subject matter of the video.
A little note about how to work Youtube algorithms
It is mind numbing to me how much Era plays into so many content creators
You know that "longer videos" in this case is for videos in the 15-minutes range right? It doesn't make any business sense by any metrics to make a 5 hour video
This for me.
Persona 4/Golden is my favorite game of all time and P5 is in my top 10 but the game should have been shorter. 40-60 hours is my sweet spot for Persona.
I'm only about an hour into the video atm, but here are some of my initial thoughts:
I disagree with most of the critique of the combat system.. And being a bit reductive, most of the critique comes off as "I wish it was more like this game".
I can agree with some of the Confidant critiques, Kawakami's and Ohya's in particular. Although some of the issues raised are tied more to not understanding Japan and its socio-cultural mores.
This last part can perhaps be considered the fault of the localisation effort, although I don't know if I'd go that far as the game is very open about taking place in Japan, and thus using that as its base.
I disagree with most of the critique of the combat system.. And being a bit reductive, most of the critique comes off as "I wish it was more like this game".
I can agree with some of the Confidant critiques, Kawakami's and Ohya's in particular. Although some of the issues raised are tied more to not understanding Japan and its socio-cultural mores.
This last part can perhaps be considered the fault of the localisation effort, although I don't know if I'd go that far as the game is very open about taking place in Japan, and thus using that as its base.
Watched around 4 hours now and I can't help but agree with him more and more. Though I still think he could've made this video a lot shorter. Especially with the confidants part and main story since I don't think he needed to talk about literally everything and could've made his point just by showing some examples.
Also, thank God that someone finally pointed out how useless Joker is to the team (outside of combat) after Makoto joins them. Like she literally becomes the leader of Phantom Thieves yet the game insists on acting like you are the one in control.
The criticism about Morgana just being a way for devs to dump information on you rather than an actual character and his whole shitty fight with Ryuji rings so true as well. Same goes for Makoto and other members of the team pointing out the obvious and acting like they are providing valuable new information which just acts to make the dialogues feel needlessly repetitive and add to the game's overall length.
Also, thank God that someone finally pointed out how useless Joker is to the team (outside of combat) after Makoto joins them. Like she literally becomes the leader of Phantom Thieves yet the game insists on acting like you are the one in control.
The criticism about Morgana just being a way for devs to dump information on you rather than an actual character and his whole shitty fight with Ryuji rings so true as well. Same goes for Makoto and other members of the team pointing out the obvious and acting like they are providing valuable new information which just acts to make the dialogues feel needlessly repetitive and add to the game's overall length.
The repetitive dialogue was one of the bigger problems I noticed while playing. I'd honestly argue it's borderline amateur and was in desperate need of some editing.
Kind of agree with Morgana as well. I don't necessarily think he serves as more of an exposition dump than a character, but his "fight" with Ryuji was really stupid, not compelling drama in the slightest and made me dislike both characters while it was going on.
Persona 5 trades off some of its more sharp character writing for a more general mystery/anime style. So in that sense, compared to Persona 4's character writing, I could kind of see a criticism there. However, without watching a five hour critique I can safely say I have to disagree pretty strongly.
And look, I've definitely gone down the rabbit hole of longform critical essays in my time. Five hours for Persona 5 feels completely unnecessary, but who knows?
And look, I've definitely gone down the rabbit hole of longform critical essays in my time. Five hours for Persona 5 feels completely unnecessary, but who knows?
What makes that fight even worse is how inconsistent Morgana's criticism of the team is compared to what's actually happening, which is something that this video points out as well. The team was actually considering going after Haru's dad next but for some reason Morgana thinks they are not gonna do it and decides to leave the team and go about this alone.
Also the video points out the inconsistency in how based on plot's needs the metaverse app decides to pull nearby people in the palace or not. Especially with Kaneshiro's palace, where going in the metaverse from a crowded location should've brought in a lot of people in the metaverse (just like Ann and Haru were dragged in) but that doesn't work for the plot so everyone around the Phantom Thieves is somehow safe.
The video touches on a lot of different problems the game has. It is a very long watch so I don't blame anyone if they don't want to dedicate that much time watching someone ramble about a game, but if you are interested I encourage you to at least listen to some parts of it.
Sounds like his criticisms of the game line up with my own, but I ain't watching no 5 hour video.
I just wanted to chime in and say a game's style, is part of it's substance.
Like style over substance doesn't even make any fucking sense.
Like style over substance doesn't even make any fucking sense.
The fight with Ryuji was not the reason morgana left. You have a character who is worrying more and more about their past as well as feeling inadequate now that there is a better navigator now on the team and the fight set him off. I don't understand why so many people have a problem with morgana's story arc
I skimmed through it and I agree with him. Especially the moral part of the video (if people don't want to watch it then skip over to that and it will sum up the biggest reasons the story doesn't work).
Yeah, I don't think Persona 5 could answer the question of what to do against a hopeless tide of social helplessness but Change Your Heart ended up feeling like a cop out. The themes of P5 were too ambitious.
... I know engaging with the content of the OP is expected but 5 hours? Did there really need to be a breakdown of all the social links? There must've been a common thread amongst them.
I've watched it for a couple of hours and think it's a good video, albeit I'm not sure if I wanna go back and see his takedown of *every* confidant after I already watched the combat/story and first few confidants he discusses. It's more than a little ironic that a video about a game that is infamously bloated and filled with redundancy is itself those 2 things lol.
But seriously it's still a good takedown overall, at least what I watched. Even as someone who loves the game, I can't and won't argue against the writing, plot and general dialogue being outright embarrassing at times. And not just a handful of times in an 80 hour game, but frequently awful and to the extent that the only solution I can think of is literally starting from scratch and removing the terrible parts altogether. Especially since it is bloated in terms of its gameplay and music too.
Which is why Royal is so fascinating to me since (admittedly I've not followed it extensively or anything but I believe this is true) it is as long, if not even longer, than the 2017 version and is in fact going to just add even more... well stuff? Not sure if that's the right thing to do really but I'll reserve judgement of that until I play it obviously.
But yeah P5 is just dreadful at times. Morgana, the Okumaru/breakup of the PT arc, the mafia boss whose name I can't even remember even though I just watched that entire part of the video because he's that forgettable, the rules around how the Metaverse works and just the script in general. It gets very bad indeed.
But seriously it's still a good takedown overall, at least what I watched. Even as someone who loves the game, I can't and won't argue against the writing, plot and general dialogue being outright embarrassing at times. And not just a handful of times in an 80 hour game, but frequently awful and to the extent that the only solution I can think of is literally starting from scratch and removing the terrible parts altogether. Especially since it is bloated in terms of its gameplay and music too.
Which is why Royal is so fascinating to me since (admittedly I've not followed it extensively or anything but I believe this is true) it is as long, if not even longer, than the 2017 version and is in fact going to just add even more... well stuff? Not sure if that's the right thing to do really but I'll reserve judgement of that until I play it obviously.
But yeah P5 is just dreadful at times. Morgana, the Okumaru/breakup of the PT arc, the mafia boss whose name I can't even remember even though I just watched that entire part of the video because he's that forgettable, the rules around how the Metaverse works and just the script in general. It gets very bad indeed.
Finally got around to watching this (albeit I skipped around a lot) and I agree with most of what was presented.
Persona 5 and I have a very complicated relationship. On one hand, I don't think we'll get another JRPG with higher production values until whenever Persona 6 decides to drop. The soundtrack is one of the best soundtracks I've ever heard and this was the first game my wife and I finished together. But for me Persona 5 is also death by a thousand cuts. Each standalone issue isn't that big on its own (the localization, the story, the characters, the length, etc.) but when compounded together, it's makes the overall package much weaker than it should ever be.
Royal looks really good though, but so did OG P5 and I'm not sure what's wrong with Persona 5 can be fixed with a redux version.
Persona 5 and I have a very complicated relationship. On one hand, I don't think we'll get another JRPG with higher production values until whenever Persona 6 decides to drop. The soundtrack is one of the best soundtracks I've ever heard and this was the first game my wife and I finished together. But for me Persona 5 is also death by a thousand cuts. Each standalone issue isn't that big on its own (the localization, the story, the characters, the length, etc.) but when compounded together, it's makes the overall package much weaker than it should ever be.
Royal looks really good though, but so did OG P5 and I'm not sure what's wrong with Persona 5 can be fixed with a redux version.
I know Persona 5 is really long, maybe too long for its own good. But I honestly enjoy my time with it and if you give me task to cut off some content to make it shorter, I honestly don't know which stuff to cut. The game structure is very episodic where each dungeon focus on a party member. And I like all the party member enough that I don't want to cut any of them. Heck, I even want more stuff added to them, more character interaction etc, which is why I can't wait for Royal.
Wait, we're holding up FFX as a beacon of complexity now? Wtf?
I watched it. Actually has a lot of good points on the various shortcomings of Persona 5, speaking as someone who enjoyed the game. The biggest,recurring issue pointed out is the use of mementos as a way to solve people's issues including confidants and writing issues including very sloppy translation work, and some of the dungeons being not very fun to play through. The video has a lot of nitpicks though (like Makoto behaves and acts like the team leader, that is a problem...how? Yes joker is the protagonist but that doesn't mean he has to be the leader in everything), and gameplay balance issues which I don't entirely agree with. SP adhesive was broken yes, but he claims that there is a definite best party members list which includes Ryuji, Yusuke and Morgana. I find Yusuke good in the beginning but he drops off later on, Ann is very strong in magic and more powerful than Yusuke in bossing which is where it really matters and Makoto can heal well and is good all rounder like Joker, more versatile in combat than Morgana who is better off as a heal bot outside of party.
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There is a lot the video points to. It's been a while that I palyed it so I forgot about a lot of stuff. Like the ex scholar of Madarame that points them to his wrongdoings in Mementos but then they completely forget about him and have Yusuke show up in a really contrived way to pick up the trail again.
Or when Akechi and Shido talk for over 5 minutes about their plans like morons just for expositions sake. Or when doors in Okumura's palace take 17 seconds to open.
So often dialogue is just repeated in text form later on multiple times because the game assumes you have the attention span of a goldfish.
Ann is a really bad character both in her Confidant and in later stages of the game. I wouldn't want them to cut her, just rewrite her character arc from the point on where Kamoshida is done.
Same with some scenarios like the Yakuza guy and Makoto's dungeon. I mentioned this in a thread of mine a few weeks ago but the video brings it up in a good way. We see this guy in person once. The stakes are there because he is threatening the crew, but he is so far below Kamoshida as a villain it's not even funny.
They can trim down the original game by a lot and I wouldn't mind. Looking forward to Royal as well.
People say Persona 5 is "style over substance"
While I would like to call it its style is a part of its substance. Or alternatively, the style is part of the experience.
While I would like to call it its style is a part of its substance. Or alternatively, the style is part of the experience.
That's the thing I mentioned in my P4 vs P5 thread I wasn't able to word properly. In P4 you have people struggling with themselves and their social links are part of their arc to self acceptance. The whole point is that they grow as characters, it's even the theme of the game.
In P5 you do the changing for them, which fits the theme, but makes for poor character development. Also Ann's Confdant is just the worst all around.
If only I can choose, I would love to have Persona 3 that has Persona 5 gameplay improvements.
I always thought Persona 3 as the strongest in terms of characters/story/themes/overall atmosphere, too bad it has the weakest gameplay.
I am indifferent towards 4, not a bad game but not a game that I would like to replay.
Longform is one thing, TooLongform is another.
It's perfectly fine to critique those who are too self-indulging in trying to make their point. Brevity is the soul of wit, after all.
Well its combat is better than all the Persona games. It's just something I've played and is referenced in the video so sue me lol
FFX is quite basic in combat but it definitely did one thing right, that is not consuming a turn when switching party members in/out. It feels so punishing and deterring to actually want to switch party members and expand your options in combat when a turn is lost.
I'm only a bit into this...and I can definitely appreciate a lot of his points! It's a real good video so far (and lots of video at that)!
That said I gotta do my thing and complain about the title. I get that he's saying people keep overlooking issues with the game because they just focus on the look and sound of it but....man, the phrase "style over substance" is so lame. I feel like it always discourages looking for thematic value within the presentation of a work by implying style is somehow a separate thing. Which ain't right, I tell ya! Aesthetics inform meaning, baby!
Anyway, I'll keep watching. Maybe he'll go more into that. If not, this'll still be a good chance to consider my own opinions on the game :)
That said I gotta do my thing and complain about the title. I get that he's saying people keep overlooking issues with the game because they just focus on the look and sound of it but....man, the phrase "style over substance" is so lame. I feel like it always discourages looking for thematic value within the presentation of a work by implying style is somehow a separate thing. Which ain't right, I tell ya! Aesthetics inform meaning, baby!
Anyway, I'll keep watching. Maybe he'll go more into that. If not, this'll still be a good chance to consider my own opinions on the game :)
Both Ann and Ryuji are underwhelming. Their confidants were all over the place and their story involvement as soon as Kamoshida part is over is just shallow at best. In fact, Yusuke is not doing a whole lot too as he mainly just tags along, but at least his confidants were good. Morgana is Morgana. Futaba is decent. So a lot of focus went to Joker and Makoto. I'd like Royal to do justice to the other characters and give them more story relevance and hopefully better written confidants.
I feel P5 is easily the best game in the mainline series.
It's an overwhelmingly mediocre title itself, but at least it isn't a chore to actually play. And yes, it is about 40 hours too long.
It's an overwhelmingly mediocre title itself, but at least it isn't a chore to actually play. And yes, it is about 40 hours too long.
See, I thought so too, but the video reminded me of a lot of things I forgot. I realize you mostly speak in terms of relevance to the story, but Morgana is really mostly used to get the plot moving, often with things we never get explained, like why he can move freely in and out of the metaverse or his dumb beef with the crew later on. Futaba is the one where I never realized how much of a walking nerd trope she is. When the video asks what she even wants to learn from her generation that she doesn't already know I was really hard pressed to think of anything. Also the way she reacts when getting rejected makes no sense whatsoever.
What I already knew I hated the moment it happened were the 3 times someone comes back after being assumed dead, every time they just walk into the frame. Ryuji was already bad because it made so little sense (when the video pointed out that it was established that you have to exit the palace from the point you entered and then realizes the boat where you entered from is exploding I was like...huh), then Sojiro's entrance was really lame. Like he just went shopping or something. And to top it off Morgana comes back with the most asinine reasoning, too. I really hope they do something about that, because it was already grating on the first playthrough.
Nah. Persona 4's characters were more interesting (both the main crew and S-links), the dungeons were over quicker and the overall story was paced way, way better. There's obviously some things they improve on, like Confidants having impact on gameplay, and the overall presentation of course. But otherwise, eh.
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