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Shevek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,530
Cape Town, South Africa
I'm damn excited either way. Regardless of what they've changed, I'm sure we're in for one hell of an experience. Just give me the level of characterisation and storytelling in a cyberpunk world that was present in the Witcher series with some decent gameplay, and I'll be a happy lad.

If they do what they did to Witcher 3 graphics, they will lose alot of respect from me.

They literally and repeatedly said both verbally and with large on-screen text that everything we were seeing was a work-in-progress and was subject to change. You were informed prior to, during, and after the gameplay demo about this.

We'll be seeing more at E3 this year, and what we see will almost certainly be closer to the finished product than what they'd shown prior. How does any of this warrant losing respect?
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
Damn, how may GotY awards are there nowadays when RDR2 apparently got trounced by God of War in them...
A lot. God of War got 198 and Witcher 3 which is the biggest winner to my knowledge, got 257. This is just according to Goty Blogspot and they don't probably even keep track of them all, they also have rules who gets counted. Mainly just professional media, with few exceptions (like ERA).
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,727
I'm not worried about any downgrades on PC this time if it's truly crossgen. I would caution people wanting 3rd person to keep their expectations in check.

Damn, how may GotY awards are there nowadays when RDR2 apparently got trounced by God of War in them...

On topic, I can't wait to see more of Cyberpunk at E3!
Witcher 3 anihilated RDR2 or any game this gen in GOTY awards. it's the most GOTY awarded game pretty sure.

Idk why people are even bringing RDR2 up in this thread.
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
17,969
I'm not worried about any downgrades on PC this time if it's truly crossgen. I would caution people wanting 3rd person to keep their expectations in check.


Witcher 3 anihilated RDR2 or any game this gen in GOTY awards. it's the most GOTY awarded game pretty sure.

Idk why people are even bringing RDR2 up in this thread.

Recency bias
 
Feb 3, 2018
1,130
If they do what they did to Witcher 3 graphics, they will lose alot of respect from me.

It's reactions like this that made them hesitant to show make the footage public in the first place, this was originally only screened for the press at E3.

And they pointed it out several times these may all look different since it was an early build downgrade is what UBISOFT did with Watch Dogs pretending that was what the final product would look like, which CDPR in no way did with the footage that was released quite the opposite.

So how they lost your respect when they were open and honest about the footage we saw I have no idea
 

Remember

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,484
Chicago, IL United States
Gotta raise the bar after RDR2.

The bar was raised a bit too high anyway:

reddeadredemption_2653053b.png
 

No Idea

Member
Mar 18, 2019
335
===========================





===========================

I'm not sure if you all have read the very clear quotes coming out of CDPR. They also squashed the countless threads about the perspective on their own forums.

I can't find the other quote, but there's even a quote where they say they are only focusing on first-person for launch, and that they are MAYBE thinking about other perspectives down the line.

And I won't requote myself, but again, it seems a lot of people have a gap in knowledge about what it takes to make the different perspectives and the large amount of work it would actually take to "just make it third-person as well". Not to mention the fact that for a game with reportedly this much detail, it might conflict with the design.

I just want the option. I'll admit I had my doubts about first person before seeing it in action though.
 

Tokio Blues

Member
Sep 14, 2018
551
May be... they are running out of money, and it's going to be downgraded for this gen, so they can after (with more budget) go for Next gen.


I don't know what i am saying.
 

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
So after reading this I went through and watched that 25-minute gameplay demo. I'm hype as fuck for this game and CDPR bought my future goodwill with TW3, but hoo boy there is some criiiiingy shit in the small slice they showed off. Felt like a cornier version of Watch_Dogs 2's "edgy humor" style of writing, to me.

This demo starts off, all T&A everywhere. Dead chick in a bathtub, camera never leaves her titties for the first few minutes. Cut to protagonist in her bedroom, standing around in a thong. Ok, there's some nudity, I'm not one to harp on that, but it stuck out as a little over the top. Cut to some dude calling me and saying he has news "bigger than his balls," while buttrock plays in the background. Diaglog ain't getting better, jokes like "clearner than a cunt at a convent." I'm sitting here wondering if these are the same writers as Witcher. Again, feels more like W_D 2.

All kicked off with a narrator going "Cyberpunk is a mature, visceral experience" lmao

Still hype, still getting it, the world looks insane, but the writing left a lot to be desired. So if it's going to look different, might not be a bad thing.
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
I would think a compromise for a third person toggle while exploring would be reasonable and not take up a huge amount of dev time. The only animations you'd need are a simple walking/running animation (which are likely shared already between the character and the npc rigging system) and some tweaking for clothing and things for clipping reasons or such maybe. Then whenever you enter dialogue/combat it just automatically goes back into first person so they don't have to animate every single interaction or have separate animations for combat between 1st and 3rd person.
I empathise that a third person mode would really make a huge difference, but this is a nonsense idea.

Even just "simple" walking and running animations take an absolutely giant amount of work to get right. But they wouldn't want to do that; they'd want to do a full rig-up, which for even GTA V Remastered took a ridiculous amount of time to do. They had to fully redesign like 100 animations or something.

Swapping first/third person on the fly barely works, which is why almost nobody has ever done it. Probably the only functional example of it was with R6 Vegas and Deus Ex HR's "third person" cover thing - which is only there to make stealth and corners workable in FPS.
 

CelestialAtom

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,037
How did that "puddlegate" thing even start?

The reason I'm asking is because back in the Spider-Man PS4 threads, I complained about the puddles being changed between gameplay and that trailer and I'm hoping I'm not the cause of it 😂😂😂

It was definitely the complaints regarding puddles being in the OG trailer and gone in the main game.
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,365
I empathise that a third person mode would really make a huge difference, but this is a nonsense idea.

Even just "simple" walking and running animations take an absolutely giant amount of work to get right. But they wouldn't want to do that; they'd want to do a full rig-up, which for even GTA V Remastered took a ridiculous amount of time to do. They had to fully redesign like 100 animations or something.

Swapping first/third person on the fly barely works, which is why almost nobody has ever done it. Probably the only functional example of it was with R6 Vegas and Deus Ex HR's "third person" cover thing - which is only there to make stealth and corners workable in FPS.

You brought up GTA V but forgot that it allows swapping perspective on the fly. GTA V and RDR2 do it.
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
You brought up GTA V but forgot that it allows swapping perspective on the fly. GTA V and RDR2 do it.
I meant automatic swapping, like what Stiller described. GTA V/RDR2 is players pressing a button to change POV - Stiller described Cyberpunk being third person while you walk or run around, but then the game automatically forcing you into FPS when you enter combat or parkour or whatever. That's a terrible idea and it's what I'm referring to when I say no other game has really done it that way (besides perhaps R6 Siege and Deus Ex: HR/MD).

Edit: I know you can set a minor level of automatic swapping in GTA V, but it didn't really work. Wasn't much use.
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,365
I meant automatic swapping, like what Stiller described. GTA V/RDR2 is players pressing a button to change POV - Stiller described Cyberpunk being third person while you walk or run around, but then the game automatically forcing you into FPS when you enter combat or parkour or whatever. That's a terrible idea and it's what I'm referring to when I say no other game has really done it that way (besides perhaps R6 Siege and Deus Ex: HR/MD).

Edit: I know you can set a minor level of automatic swapping in GTA V, but it didn't really work. Wasn't much use.

Yeah it's jarring and doesn't feel good to constantly swap between perspectives, especially in an open world game.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
I empathise that a third person mode would really make a huge difference, but this is a nonsense idea.

Even just "simple" walking and running animations take an absolutely giant amount of work to get right. But they wouldn't want to do that; they'd want to do a full rig-up, which for even GTA V Remastered took a ridiculous amount of time to do. They had to fully redesign like 100 animations or something.

Swapping first/third person on the fly barely works, which is why almost nobody has ever done it. Probably the only functional example of it was with R6 Vegas and Deus Ex HR's "third person" cover thing - which is only there to make stealth and corners workable in FPS.

Walking/run animations would already be done for npc's which will share the same rig, that's the reason why I think it wouldn't be a huge amount of dev time if it was "simply" for walking/running around.

As far as swapping, that's the compromise, because they would have to do a looooot more animation work and things to do a full third person with combat animations and all of that, having the game place you back in first person for that would be a way to provide third person without having ot sacrifice a ton of dev time toward it and still being able to allow those that wish to use 3rd person a way to do so that isn't simply while driving around.

I don't really see why you say it barely works? How is it any different then toggling between them like virtually every other game that offers a choice between the two? The only difference is the game toggles it automatically when you enter combat or whatever, there's nothing different between the function of it then if the player tapped the "switch view" button like any other game handles toggling between them.

As I said, the entire point of this is a compromise to offer a quick and easy third person solution for players to use, it's not meant to be an all encompassing third person nor to require a huge amount of developer time to do, just a simple thing to offer for players that like third person or get sick when using first person to help them alleviate being stuck in 1st person all the time outside of driving.
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
Walking/run animations would already be done for npc's which will share the same rig, that's the reason why I think it wouldn't be a huge amount of dev time if it was "simply" for walking/running around.

As far as swapping, that's the compromise, because they would have to do a looooot more animation work and things to do a full third person with combat animations and all of that, having the game place you back in first person for that would be a way to provide third person without having ot sacrifice a ton of dev time toward it and still being able to allow those that wish to use 3rd person a way to do so that isn't simply while driving around.

I don't really see why you say it barely works? How is it any different then toggling between them like virtually every other game that offers a choice between the two? The only difference is the game toggles it automatically when you enter combat or whatever, there's nothing different between the function of it then if the player tapped the "switch view" button like any other game handles toggling between them.

As I said, the entire point of this is a compromise to offer a quick and easy third person solution for players to use, it's not meant to be an all encompassing third person nor to require a huge amount of developer time to do, just a simple thing to offer for players that like third person or get sick when using first person to help them alleviate being stuck in 1st person all the time outside of driving.
The entire point is that it's an absurdly vast amount of work. No, it's not quick and easy, no matter how you do it (if you want your game to be high end and polished like CDPR do). No, you can't just use an NPC's run animation. This is the protagonist you're talking about, who will be close up onscreen for millions of hours around the globe. NPCs' run animations will receive 1/100th the work of the protagonist's run animation (probably even less) and they aren't designed for use with many-degree movement inputs or modular rig rotation or any number of things that can influence how they move. If you want some jankfest movement ala Elder Scrolls IV and V then sure, but we're talking about teams here who are targeting super ambitious GOTY material output, who want every millimetre of the experience to be tight and polished.

They have more than enough work to do to ensure that already.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
The entire point is that it's an absurdly vast amount of work. No, it's not quick and easy, no matter how you do it (if you want your game to be high end and polished like CDPR do). No, you can't just use an NPC's run animation. This is the protagonist you're talking about, who will be close up onscreen for millions of hours around the globe. NPCs' run animations will receive 1/100th the work of the protagonist's run animation (probably even less) and they aren't designed for use with many-degree movement inputs or modular rig rotation or any number of things that can influence how they move. If you want some jankfest movement ala Elder Scrolls IV and V then sure, but we're talking about teams here who are targeting super ambitious GOTY material output, who want every millimetre of the experience to be tight and polished.

They have more than enough work to do to ensure that already.

You're going to see npc's walking, running, doing all of that, what makes you think they won't have decent run animations? You just said they wouldn't skimp out on those.

Also you'd be surprised at how many people play TES/Fallout games in third person (I'm one of them), like over half of the people or more used third person in those games.
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
You're going to see npc's walking, running, doing all of that, what makes you think they won't have decent run animations? You just said they wouldn't skimp out on those.

What? I implied they WOULD skimp out on NPC animations. Especially compared to the protagonist. Geralt's walking animations probably saw thousands of hours of work over the entire span of the game's development, while generic NPCs probably received hundreds at most and are imbued with far less nuance. NPCs' running and walking animations will be 1/100th the quality of the protagonist's.

With Cyberpunk, doing this would be an even more ridiculously giant amount of work. GTA V Remastered needed like 2 years of work to get FPS mode in, and all you can do is run, shoot, drive, and take cover (along with contextual actions like vehicles). In Cyberpunk you can climb stuff, wall-run, run-slide. The animation work getting all this good in FPS alone will have been staggering, so throwing TPS in the mix? A completely insane amount of work.

If CDPR added third person to Cyberpunk they'd be adding years of work to an already-crammed load. The choice to do only FPS will have been VERY strategic. If we see a TPS feature in the game, perhaps it'll be with a patch or remastered version ala GTA V Remastered.

Also you'd be surprised at how many people play TES/Fallout games in third person (I'm one of them), like over half of the people or more used third person in those games.
Of course lots of people play them third person. My point was that BSD's games have been falling behind the curve ever since Oblivion, to the point where the walking/running animations are laughable and don't match the standard of countless other AAA titles. The Witcher 3 had better animations than any BSD game I've seen, and you expect them to downgrade from that - to lower their standards - just so they can provide a third-person view?

It's not happening, mate.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
What? I implied they WOULD skimp out on NPC animations. Especially compared to the protagonist. Geralt's walking animations probably saw thousands of hours of work over the entire span of the game's development, while generic NPCs probably received hundreds at most and are imbued with far less nuance. NPCs' running and walking animations will be 1/100th the quality of the protagonist's.

With Cyberpunk, doing this would be an even more ridiculously giant amount of work. GTA V Remastered needed like 2 years of work to get FPS mode in, and all you can do is run, shoot, drive, and take cover (along with contextual actions like vehicles). In Cyberpunk you can climb stuff, wall-run, run-slide. The animation work getting all this good in FPS alone will have been staggering, so throwing TPS in the mix? A completely insane amount of work.

If CDPR added third person to Cyberpunk they'd be adding years of work to an already-crammed load. The choice to do only FPS will have been VERY strategic. If we see a TPS feature in the game, perhaps it'll be with a patch or remastered version ala GTA V Remastered.


Of course lots of people play them third person. My point was that BSD's games have been falling behind the curve ever since Oblivion, to the point where the walking/running animations are laughable and don't match the standard of countless other AAA titles. The Witcher 3 had better animations than any BSD game I've seen, and you expect them to downgrade from that - to lower their standards - just so they can provide a third-person view?

It's not happening, mate.

I just don't see why you think the npc's are going to have poor animation quality when it comes to walking and running, especially since you're going to see them do that, it's going to be visual to the player so why do you think they'd make it poor quality? From the gameplay demo last year it looked fine to me.

Yes they spent a lot of time on Geralt when they have to animate everything with that, things like getting on/off the horse, all the combat animations, power animations, dialogue animations, etc.

As I said, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about simply 2 animations, a walk, and a run animation, which the npc's will already have and use the same rig as the player character. Everything outside of that is first person.

Besides that was just my idea as a compromise, a simple solution to offer to those players that like third person or those that need it for health reasons, is it the best? No, is it as high quality as full third person? Nope, but you're making it sound like it'd take the world to do literally two basic animations that are already done for the most part and would mainly need touch ups to work for the player character.
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,392
FIN
Did they add 3rd person? Would love both options

We don't know yet anything about changes between 2018 and now.

We should be more informed tomorrow as E3 floor opens and they start their semi-public and private gameplay demo events. Impression will start flooding in.

I wish we saw new gameplay
Here's a little something

I didn't catch the Xbox show. Was this shown?

Here is 4k release: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZHltYhcH3g
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
Right Stiler the problem here is you clearly don't understand multiple basic realities about animation and modelling and art production in videogames. I'm out after this.

I just don't see why you think the npc's are going to have poor animation quality when it comes to walking and running

I never said poor animation quality - I simply said a vastly lower standard than for the playable character. This is obvious. Even if an NPC receives 1/100th the work time as protagonist, they still won't be aiming for "bad" animations, they'll be aiming for "great animations but not as sublime/frame-perfect as the protag".

NPCs are usually far away and transient, whereas the protag is near the camera and locked to centre at all times. It needs a lot more work to animate a character which is right in front of eyes the entire time than it does one who walks by in the distance for a few seconds.

Well, you can skimp on it if you want but thousands of people will notice it and slag it off, ruining the perceived quality of your work.

As I said, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about simply 2 animations, a walk, and a run animation,

No, you're not talking about "simply 2 animation". Running and walking is not two animations. In a game like this, running and walking is tens of animations at least. Basic movement animation nowadays includes pivoting, heel movement, whole body tilting, joins at the waist and head relating to movement, etc.

It's easy to say "just copy walking and running animations" but you're really talking about tens of smaller bits of animation which then have to fit into a huge cohesive whole which comprises hundreds or thousands of animations.

And guess what? None of the NPCs will have this animation minutiae. Their rig will have a fraction the complexity of a protag's. Geralt's skeleton and rig will be so much more complex than a random civilian from Novigrad.

All of it would have to be re-developed if they added TPS for the protagonist.

I mean, they could do what you're proposing, as simple and quick a possible animation flip - but it would end up looking like a $5 asset-flip PC game from the Steam store.

which the npc's will already have and use the same rig as the player character.

No, they won't. This isn't how it works. They WONT have the same rig because the protagonist will have hundreds more joints and flexors than an NPC.


Everything outside of that is first person.
And again, this is a bad idea which only a couple of games have ever deigned to try and it had to link very closely to the game design (e.g. only TPS when you hold the cover button).

In GTA V Remaster you can have the option to play in first person and swap out to third person whenever you roll, take cover or get ragdolled. And guess what? They removed those options from Red Dead Redemption 2, because clearly they sucked and nobody used them.

Besides that was just my idea as a compromise, a simple solution to offer to those players that like third person or those that need it for health reasons, is it the best? No, is it as high quality as full third person? Nope, but you're making it sound like it'd take the world to do literally two basic animations that are already done for the most part and would mainly need touch ups to work for the player character.
1. CDPR are not going to compromise to make a "less good" third person view mode. Their vision is to have every millimetre the same super high standard. This is why Witcher 3's development was apparently 3 years of straight crunch.
2. It wouldn't be "two basic animations". See above. These things occupy several people's daily hours for months at a time. You can't flippantly say "just add it".