You do you. I couldn't imagine tolerating people in my life who view me as less than or inferior. Or thinking that my sexuality was an immoral sin. You want to think that's being sheltered, naive, having little real world experience et al, be my guest. We simply differ on what we find important and the situations in which we choose not to tolerate. I think it's silly not to expect some sort of frustration when a leading developer in an industry that hasn't had a good track record as it relates to social issues does something like this and it's an important discussion to be had. Especially when they objectify and stereotype marginalized groups of people whom they've had questionable conduct towards in the past.I guess we just disagree here. I saw all those GOG tweets when they happened. I'm just saying, and I don't mean this to be dismissive, if I took offense at that, I literally would have to disassociate with half of my friends. I probably would have had to stop working for the college I work for. There is shit that happens that I really disagree with a lot of the time. But I pick my battles and try to find the important ones.
Like I said, I'm an open gay man, and I have friends that are fundementalist Baptist. We clearly don't agree on that issue. But we are still friends. And I think that is not even close to someone hinting at having different politics. That is someone who literally straight up has the opinion that being gay is immoral/wrong.
I think it was because of all the shitty takes in there so they wanted to lock it while they go though it.Yeah I'd like to know why, exactly.
The mods didn't post their reasoning, which they absolutely should.
Is this game not allowed to be critiqued for the heap of edgelord shit that it so clearly is?
The person doesn't have to identify as trans -- they can't, in fact, as they are a fictional creation entirely made up by the game's designers who chose everything about how they're presented, so there is no such thing as their chosen identity -- for the phrase "Mix It Up" over someone femme presenting with a clearly visible penis to seem pretty uncool, given the context of the company it's coming from. If they actually had a history of good trans representation and awareness of such concerns, I'm sure people would give it the benefit of the doubt. Instead they have precisely the opposite. It's absurd to pretend the image exists in a void.
Gay, Trans... talking for them, saying he triggered people!
Get this man a prize
I think it was because of all the shitty takes in there so they wanted to lock it while they go though it.
You know what I'm out of here. It's clear yall aren't looking to have a discussion just looking to dump on someone who don't share your train of thought. Have fun NOT playing games. This place has been becoming a place where people can't even share their thoughts for fear of people coming at them. Nit one person even mentioned my first and second reason for buying the game! LOL
Oh but some people are trying their hardest though.
Say hi to neogaf for us!You know what I'm out of here. It's clear yall aren't looking to have a discussion just looking to dump on someone who don't share your train of thought. Have fun NOT playing games. This place has been becoming a place where people can't even share their thoughts for fear of people coming at them. Nit one person even mentioned my first and second reason for buying the game! LOL
Absolutely. It is clearly a very bad look coming from a company that has a poor record of dealing with these issues in an offensive and/or tone deaf manner. Another interpretation might be possible, somehow, but they don't have the benefit of the doubt about these matters due to their own actions. Regardless of whether there might also be a more positive, neutral or nuanced representation of that same community elsewhere in the game, the burden of proof is entirely on the company by this point. If they ignore the issue or come up with another terrible response, that'll just confirm it.
. What amazes me is how anyone, let alone someone who is supposedly part of a marginalized group, can make the "difference of opinion" or "different politics" argument when it comes to implicit bigotry. Objectifying or not being accepting of the LGBQT community isn't a difference of opinion or different politics. Your friends thinking that you're an unholy abomination isn't a difference of opinion, it's a gross obfuscation of what the bible teaches them distorted to justify their intolerance of you.
That isnt the point the point is assuming everyone is because of some. If we go by your line of thinking then we may as well call the whole country of poland transphobic. It just doesn't make sense. Now to be clear i'm not defending this behavior or any king of hate I just don't think it's rational.
well for one you just used "triggered" unironically lmao
I don't get it. People seemed mad so i assume it was something i said. I hope yall don't get like this everytime someone comes along with differring opinions lmao. That would be one stressful life and probably a short one.
bye don't come back
Don't sweat it bud. No reason to. No discussion to be had here. Just another one sided thread.
I think it was because of all the shitty takes in there so they wanted to lock it while they go though it.
If they had literally anyone on staff who understood these issues and they saw that image, they would have flagged it as a possible concern. The fact that it got through so far that it's used as marketing material shows pretty clearly how little they've learned, which seems to be the argument some would make in this thread. They should be given the chance to make mistakes, learn, and grow; but have they?
It doesn't have to be maliciously intended to be absurdly off the mark and an example of regression rather than progress. Continued apathy in the face of the concerns of an oppressed minority is honestly cruel enough that it begins to take on its own kind of malice, whether or not it's deliberate.
What are you trying to imply hereI think the shitty takes were from the opposite side you think they were from.
I don't see why you don't see the connection there. It has to do with the larger position of how ideologically pure you try to be in your interactions (economic or personal). I guarantee you if you took some of the stuff 90% of us bought in the last week even, and looked into the culture/politics surrounding it, you'd find some stuff that would be pretty horrific--horrible working conditions, child labor, animal cruelty, environmental catastrophes and violations. And yet most of us still buy those products. Are those lesser issues than someone at company's tweeting habits?
I'm not making an argument for nihilism or just throwing your hands up. I just try to keep level headed about this stuff. I was concerned enough, for example, about animal well fare and the environmental politics around beef, for example, that I became vegetarian about a decade ago. But I recognize other people aren't willing to make that compromise. It's complicated what we decide to act on and what don't, but it definitely isn't black and white.
Like I said earlier, you pick your battles and compromises. And for me, boycotting a company due to handful of bad tweets/joke don't rank because I don't think it's possible to live my life to that level of ideological purity.
Now that is not to say I don't think it was worth calling out or talking about. When someone says something / makes a bad joke about something, shedding light on the problems is a good thing (if handled the right way--in my view it can do more harm than good when it comes off as a self righteous crusade that might make us feel better, but makes the actual situation worse and creates more resentment). But don't really think someone making some bad tweets justifies more than calling it out. Because I don't know how to function in a way that isn't blatantly hypocritical if I say, boycot one company because someone there made some bad tweets, but then obvliviously buy a bunch of products that are created in what I consider to be much worse conditions. I try to reserve boycotting/cutting people off for really extreme breaches, elsewise I'd go crazy.
You know what I'm out of here. It's clear yall aren't looking to have a discussion just looking to dump on someone who don't share your train of thought. Have fun NOT playing games. This place has been becoming a place where people can't even share their thoughts for fear of people coming at them. Nit one person even mentioned my first and second reason for buying the game! LOL
The image may very well be (and is likely) in bad taste, but some of the assumptions made in the backlash seemed regressive rather than progressive themselves. In particular the suggestion that we should assume the image is supposed to represent a trans person is marginalizing of a number of groups and the assumption that an image of a person with a penis who exhibits a traditionally feminine appearance must be fetishization of trans people disenfranchises those who are non-op, among others. I have a longer reply about this that I'm saving for when that thread is hopefully unlocked. It will make more sense in context of the replies in that thread.If they had literally anyone on staff who understood these issues and they saw that image, they would have flagged it as a possible concern. The fact that it got through so far that it's used as marketing material shows pretty clearly how little they've learned, which seems to be the argument some would make in this thread. They should be given the chance to make mistakes, learn, and grow; but have they?
It doesn't have to be maliciously intended to be absurdly off the mark and an example of regression rather than progress. Continued apathy in the face of the concerns of an oppressed minority is honestly cruel enough that it begins to take on its own kind of malice, whether or not it's deliberate.
He's merely explaining how he deals with things like this and reckons with them in his own experiences and everyday life. It's perfectly valid. Era definitely has an "if you're not with us in the exact way we want you to be, you're against us" mentality, and it makes it hard to have these tough discussions sometimes.You're acting like not buying a game is taking up political capital when you say "pick your battles". It's a personal choice based on the actions of a company, but you're acting like it's some social and critical decision that is going to rip apart society.
Literally nobody is going to know that you called out a company for saying shit things and chose not to purchase their product unless you constantly advertise that you didn't buy the product. And literally all you have to say is "they said some fucked up things and didn't really see issue with what they said, so I decided to not give them my money". Done, zero drama unless the person who asked decided to make it drama.
Just from the few posts you've shared, you seem extremely worried about rocking the boat in respect to calling people out (or in this case a company). You keep bringing up your personal friends and coworkers in how "they say things that are wrong and I don't agree with" and even limit yourself in trying to compare it to being a "self righteous crusade and making it worse"
I'm very likely going to buy this game, but I fully understand my own hypocrisy in doing so, but I'm really getting a sense of projection of some of your own internal hangups with this topic, considering you keep using your own personal experience in tolerating intolerance to compare to people tolerating the intolerance of a company.
Social media accounts aren't one man jobs. There was definitely a chain of people that had to have seen those tweets and went, "yeah, this is OK." And the fact that those people came to that decision and that it happened multiple times is indicative of the type of culture CDPR cultivates. They may not be shouting bigoted jokes from the rooftops, but they sure didn't mind letting their mouthpieces make those jokes.I totally understand boycotts based on morality, but you were implying that CDPR "represents bigotry," and I'm curious why. Do you think CDPR's founders think jokes like that are okay and that they're covering for their social media? I don't know who calls the shots at the company or would be responsible for that employee.
Not trying to tell you you shouldn't boycott for whatever reason, just curious.
How do you expect change to happen if all you do is sit on your butt waiting? Changes, like gay marriage or making homophobia a crime, happen because people, LGBTQ+ people, fought hard for those things. They called politicians, they yelled at people, they protested, they boycotted, they died. Law makers and politicians don't have a dart board with a list of different minorities, and depending on where the dart lands it's the group they will be helping this year.Because I don't think a lot of outrage culture that happens on the internet doesn't have much to do with actually changing culture for the better. That's not to say it never does (the "Me Too" movement is a good example of positive change that came from internet outrage), but most of the time I just don't think much productive comes out of it. Real change happens legisltatively on the large scale and through personal relationships on the small scale, in my view. It was a huge deal for me when the city I live in passed a law last year making it illegal to fire someone for being gay (yes it just happened here last year). And it was a big deal to see people I care about start to shift their opinions (my fundementalist father, colleagues, etc.). Real change is important. I just don't think telling strangers off online or trying to get them fired for saying things I don't like, or even boycotting a company because I don't like what someone who worked there tweeted, makes much difference. In fact, if it moves the needle one way or the other, I'm tempted to think it just mostly creates more resentment and division than it does actually actually move the needle in the right direction.
That there's 0 reason for outrage at the picture in question?
Even the op of said topic said "maybe trans"
I'm all for rights for everyone, but that topic was almost the definition of 'extremist'
I will leave here the word of someone I trust on transgender issues:
Basically, knowing who is making the game, this can be a sign of bad representation of transgender folk in the game (basically as fetishes and not as people).
That there's 0 reason for outrage at the picture in question?
Even the op of said topic said "maybe trans"
I'm all for rights for everyone, but that topic was almost the definition of 'extremist'
He's merely explaining how he deals with things like this and reckons with them in his own experiences and everyday life. It's perfectly valid. Era definitely has an "if you're not with us in the exact way we want you to be, you're against us" mentality, and it makes it hard to have these tough discussions sometimes.
I don't think he's saying that everyone else needs to operate that way, just that he finds it's the best way for him to operate given his circumstances.Yea, I understand what he's saying, and he deals with it by basically ignoring it and that his friends openly think he's living a sinful lifestyle. That's cool and his choice, but he seems to want everyone else in his shoes to make the same choice in not wanting people constantly belittling their issues that directly effect their lives on a regular basis.
You're acting like not buying a game is taking up political capital when you say "pick your battles". It's a personal choice based on the actions of a company, but you're acting like it's some social and critical decision that is going to rip apart society.
Literally nobody is going to know that you called out a company for saying shit things and chose not to purchase their product unless you constantly advertise that you didn't buy the product. And literally all you have to say is "they said some fucked up things and didn't really see issue with what they said, so I decided to not give them my money". Done, zero drama unless the person who asked decided to make it drama.
Just from the few posts you've shared, you seem extremely worried about rocking the boat in respect to calling people out (or in this case a company). You keep bringing up your personal friends and coworkers in how "they say things that are wrong and I don't agree with" and even limit yourself in trying to compare it to being a "self righteous crusade and making it worse"
I'm very likely going to buy this game, but I fully understand my own hypocrisy in doing so, but I'm really getting a sense of projection of some of your own internal hangups with this topic, considering you keep using your own personal experience in tolerating intolerance to compare to people tolerating the intolerance of a company.
Nice to know that you didn't read what I quoted.If you argue whether or not something is transphobic doesn't make someone a transphobic.
There's literally 0 evidence showing that image is a dig on trans people.
It's literally telling you there's multiple flavors, do what you want!
Forgot to say, I read your article, and it's pretty on point as to why some people think this game will be a failure to the Cyberpunk genre, and why it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt. I hope you keep writing about it, though, and give your perspective of the game when it releases.
Unfortunately as long as it doesn't affect them personally people will always try to dismiss this stuff as "Outrage Culture". Thank you for continuing to fight the good fight 👍Hey, thanks so much for saying that. After dealing with people harassing me in my notifs on Twitter and seeing both consumers and industry professionals dismiss concerns from PoC and trans folks about Cyberpunk 2077 (among other games, as always) as "Outrage Culture," it's nice to hear this kind of thing.
It's not that it takes "political capital" but it does take personal cognitive/psychological captial. My point was that we have to pick which things we decide are worth being concerned about. All of us do. And I think how we come to those is often very personal, which is why I was trying to share some of my own personal reasoning and where I ended up on topics like this.
I don't really have "hang ups" about this. I'm in my 40's. I dealt with that shit a long, long time ago. I was just trying to share why I thought someone a company making a handful of tweets that I think were offensive is not the kind of thing I try to get worked up about. I only have some much mental capacity to "give a shit" and I try to save it for things that I think are big and important and I try to be conscientious as a consumer where I think it counts the most because, again, I don't think I can do it everywhere. And say, how the cattle industry treats animals or Monsanto's monopolizing politics, or labor exploitation in the tech industry or factories are examples of things that I think weigh harder on me personally than what some dude that works at a company said online in a few Tweets. I'm sure there are blindspots I have or places where I compromise where I shouldn't. I think it's probably pretty much impossible to live in a western country and not be complicit in a lot of awful shit. But one can't lives one's life in a state of constant guilt or function in society without some barometer for how and where to focus one's concerns.
I am not trying to be dismissive, OP, but I don't know how you take this position and function in the world. I doubt there is any company in existence that doesn't have someone who works for it that has politics that differ greatly from mine. Moreover, I'm not sure I want to live in a world where people are fired just for having different political/cultural beliefs than mine. In fact, no doubt in pretty much every company, there are likely many, many people who have views different from my own.
What did you quote? It literally says in your quote "this can be a sign of bad representation"
Yeah, anything can be. But I'll bow out because if it can be, it is, is not a battleground I would participate in.
But continue to label me as a transphobe because I argue against certain fronts.
Very true, sadly. Thanks so much. <3Unfortunately as long as it doesn't affect them personally people will always try to dismiss this stuff as "Outrage Culture". Thank you for continuing to fight the good fight 👍
Because your first post directly talked about this incorrectly as "people in the company" who are bigoted, and not the company itself forwardly representing and expression the marginalization of issues that effect trans people... twice.
So yea, you don't have the capacity to give a fuck on this topic, cool. The fact that you keep conflating "political and cultural" beliefs with a company shitposting "did you just assume their gender" and coopting a trans slogan that was in response to Trump attempting to make trans people literally not exist is tone-deaf at best.
If you argue whether or not something is transphobic doesn't make someone a transphobic.
There's literally 0 evidence showing that image is a dig on trans people.
It's literally telling you there's multiple flavors, do what you want!
If you clicked on the Twitter thread you would have seen a trans person give their reasons on how this is bad. But it's obvious you don't care about the people who are affected feel.
That seems a pretty blatant exaggeration, no? If they literally "didn't mind" then the tweets would still be happening. Now the question of WHY they cared, whether it was economic concerns or genuine cultural disagreement, I suppose we don't know and have to just guess at.Social media accounts aren't one man jobs. There was definitely a chain of people that had to have seen those tweets and went, "yeah, this is OK." And the fact that those people came to that decision and that it happened multiple times is indicative of the type of culture CDPR cultivates. They may not be shouting bigoted jokes from the rooftops, but they sure didn't mind letting their mouthpieces make those jokes.
It also lets you play as a female character. You can customise your character to what skin colour you like. It has LGBT characters. But okHonestly, I got no interest in this game. Feel free to look at my posting history and see the post I left in the Cyber Punk thread if you want proof. However, if YOU want the game, I think you should still get it. I wouldn't generalise the entire company based on what has happened before, you can choose not to buy it out of protest but the writing is on the wall, this game is going to sell gangbusters, any boycott probably won't even register for this company. It's straight up a male power fantasy game, it's got Keanu, it's got great graphics, it's got nudity, it's got violence, it's got swearing. It has everything it needs to be a big success.
It also lets you play as a female character. You can customise your character to what skin colour you like. It has LGBT characters. But ok