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Captain of Outer Space

Come Sale Away With Me
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,310
I get what she's saying, but someone worked at their job, really hard, to earn the money to watch what your job created, and they didn't like it. They may have also spent a lot of that money they work really really hard at to buy stuff surrounding that brand. I'm not saying they spent money therefore they can be hate spewing shits, I just dislike the "someone worked hard on this" as an excuse or defense.
That's fine, but why should Daisy have to be the recipient of their disappointment/hatred/whatever? I think that's the issue that she is talking about. Rather than focus the feedback on the studio responsible for the end product, it can often be put on a random person on the project that isn't really responsible for the overall outcome.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
You're at a party and suddenly someone you don't know tells you they don't like your work. It is rude.

There is a time and a place for criticism of one's work. It's not at a fucking birthday party.

Was it the end of the world for her? No. Was it rude? Yes.

Can you imagine if this were to happen at a wedding or a funeral to one of the actors?
 

Amiablepercy

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,587
California
That's fine, but why should Daisy have to be the recipient of their disappointment/hatred/whatever? I think that's the issue that she is talking about. Rather than focus the feedback on the studio responsible for the end product, it can often be put on a random person on the project that isn't really responsible for the overall outcome.

Agree with you. If someone thinks $18 bucks or the cost of a movie ticket entitles them to be maliciously toxic or aggressive to an artist who might have been on part of a disappointing film/prohect. That is just insane and indictive that a lot of people emeshed in enthusiast culture need some therapy.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
I'm not even talking about actors, and constant abuse and harassment on social media.

Any person, any job, criticizing their work at a damned party is rude.

I agree. In any context it's just rude. But if this were to happen to any of the cast members of the new Star Wars at a funeral, that would almost be like an SNL bit at this point.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I agree. In any context it's just rude. But if this were to happen to any of the cast members of the new Star Wars at a funeral, that would almost be like an SNL bit at this point.
"I know your best friend just passed away and I'm so sorry for your loss. But if you don't mind I just wanted to let you know what I thought The Last Jedi has some major problems and just isn't very good."
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
"I know your best friend just passed away and I'm so sorry for your loss. But if you don't mind I just wanted to let you know what I thought The Last Jedi has some major problems and just isn't very good."

You have to wonder what comedy bits will emerge in the next 5-10 years pertaining to youtubers, social media, et al.. And this isn't the type of social maladjustment that comedy writers will have to be subtle about either. This will be grade A "King of Kong" style lampooning, because any way you slice it, there's hardly any deeper context to their behavior and motives than what is presented at face value.

For me growing up, Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons was low hanging fruit. I didn't believe that people like him existed in real life. But then I saw King of Kong, and then a number of Billy Mitchell interviews before and after that film and it really opened my eyes on a number of things.

The reason why I brought up the funeral moment in my last post was because I was because I was witness to an awkward exchange between a relative who made the misguided decision to broach the topic of mortgage issues with one of the relatives. "Not the time or place" was essentially the response and that ended the discussion then and there.

As vile as I find a number of these people, I can't help but get a chuckle out of the idea that some of these people would actually try to pull this type of behavior at a funeral because I've seen no indication that they wouldn't, given their propensity for self-aggrandizement and entitlement. I remember reading an article about Roy Schildt, a classic competitive arcade gamer and Billy Mitchell rival. He was similar to these losers because of his antisocial behavior and how he would harass the score keepers of Twin Galaxies over not officially recognizing his Missile Command top score; actually crashing a funeral at the height of his lunacy.

As someone with no vested interest in the Star Wars ST, I find amusement in the absurdity of nerds getting all worked up over a film they didn't like, but at the same time, I understand Daisy Ridley's, Kelly Tran, and other actor(s)' points of view. It has to be jarring to have people approach you for any reason at all -- not just to criticize you for a film you were involved in. I imagine for an actor, the last thing they want to have to be dealing with when in a private setting is discussing anything work related at all.
 

Barn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,137
Los Angeles
Yeah, as someone who works in media (nowhere near Ridley's level, just making a living), the shift in how some portions of the audience perceive the creator-audience relationship is upsetting. Outside of all of the abuse, misogyny, vitriol and racism in certain online nerd communities (which is an obvious fucking problem), it is not the audience's role to demand a do-over. You're of course free to absolutely despise any given work, but you don't get to request a mulligan just because whatever that work is didn't specifically cater to your personal whims. I don't care how much of a "fan" you are.

Also, I don't think anyone is saying it's rude to dislike a work. But it goes without saying that even if you didn't like the work, going up to a near stranger who was a part of the thing and telling them so is rude. That's just common sense, and maybe a troubling illustration of how social media is gutting our baseline ability to socialize face-to-face.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Yeah, as someone who works in media (nowhere near Ridley's level, just making a living), the shift in how some portions of the audience perceive the creator-audience relationship is upsetting. Outside of all of the abuse, misogyny, vitriol and racism in certain online nerd communities (which is an obvious fucking problem), it is not the audience's role to demand a do-over. You're of course free to absolutely despise any given work, but you don't get to request a mulligan just because whatever that work is didn't specifically cater to your personal whims. I don't care how much of a "fan" you are.

Also, I don't think anyone is saying it's rude to dislike a work. But it goes without saying that even if you didn't like the work, going up to a near stranger who was a part of the thing and telling them so is rude. That's just common sense, and maybe a troubling illustration of how social media is gutting our baseline ability to socialize face-to-face.
Counterpoint:

DEBATE MEEEEEEEE
 

Barn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,137
Los Angeles
Counterpoint:

DEBATE MEEEEEEEE

Hang on, let me put my debating hat on.

Im+an+atheist+debate+me+_ff266297308c48bf79c9dd73d60bf49d.jpg
 

BluePigGanon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
892
Yeah, as someone who works in media (nowhere near Ridley's level, just making a living), the shift in how some portions of the audience perceive the creator-audience relationship is upsetting. Outside of all of the abuse, misogyny, vitriol and racism in certain online nerd communities (which is an obvious fucking problem), it is not the audience's role to demand a do-over. You're of course free to absolutely despise any given work, but you don't get to request a mulligan just because whatever that work is didn't specifically cater to your personal whims. I don't care how much of a "fan" you are.

Also, I don't think anyone is saying it's rude to dislike a work. But it goes without saying that even if you didn't like the work, going up to a near stranger who was a part of the thing and telling them so is rude. That's just common sense, and maybe a troubling illustration of how social media is gutting our baseline ability to socialize face-to-face.

Exactly.

I think the fact some people don't get how it would be rude sorta proves her point.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
Your naked attempts to put words in my mouth illustrates exactly why the situation will never change.

Is this where you go "I didn't say it was all her fault" lol

She was at a birthday party.

She could be the best most open to criticism from the peanut gallery actor ever and idiots would still approach her like this.

Your defense of this while putting responsibility, any of if, on her while denying there's a toxicity problem and trying to play this you're putting words in my mouth song and dance is just so sad.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
There is where I ask you to show me where I denied a toxicity problem.
You denied that this instance was toxic, which seeing how this is without question an example of toxicity....

Denying something that is clearly toxic as toxic is a roundabout away of denying toxicity is a problem.
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
You denied that this instance was toxic, which seeing how this is without question an example of toxicity....

Denying something that is clearly toxic as toxic is a roundabout away of denying toxicity is a problem.
Show me where I denied the toxicity problem without excluding the part of my post where I acknowledged their are awful people out there.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
Here you go:
As I stated, she could cut down the number of these instances if she wasnt 100% intolerant of any criticism. You're only looking only at the party incident when she's talking about the public social media platforms too.

She's made it clear she hates the criticism from fans no matter where it comes from.
You tried to claim she could reduce the number of times she got harassed. You went for the "well if she wasn't wearing such revealing clothing she wouldn't get sexually harassed so much" argument but with toxic fan engagement....how do you not see this?

You point blank bold faced lied when you said she is "100% intolerant of any criticism" to push your view that she somehow is responsible for reducing how often she is harassed in public.


You post was making excuses and shifting blame of toxic behavior. There is no other way to spin that.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
Now people are creating fanfic about Daisy to try and make it seem she was wrong. Totally normal.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
Show me where I denied the toxicity problem without excluding the part of my post where I acknowledged their are awful people out there.

Considering the bulk of the criticism of TLJ wasnt coming from a shithole I'm not buying this.

You didn't "buy" this... whatever that even means because at best you think the toxicity was clearly minor given you're arguing the bulk of it was non toxic...

And then proceeded to proclaim that if she just took criticism better this wouldn't happen as much.

Which is kinda crazy and toxic in itself

Nevermind that you also said this:
People are asking what is there to gain by crticizing a work to someone's face. Insight from their perspective is to be gained.

Which is outright defending the idiot at the birthday and people like him.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
You didn't "buy" this... whatever that even means because at best you think the toxicity was clearly minor given you're arguing the bulk of it was non toxic...

And then proceeded to proclaim that if she just took criticism better this wouldn't happen as much.

Which is kinda crazy and toxic in itself

Nevermind that you also said this:


Which is outright defending the idiot at the birthday and people like him.
When he said he hasn't defended toxic behavior he clearly means he hasn't defended toxic behavior since these posts of him defending toxic behavior.
 

Osahi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,929
As I stated, she could cut down the number of these instances if she wasnt 100% intolerant of any criticism. You're only looking only at the party incident when she's talking about the public social media platforms too.

She's made it clear she hates the criticism from fans no matter where it comes from.
Dude. She doesn't need to adress critisism. You are not entitled to a reaction or discussion.

You can write an essay with your critisism, making a 2 hour Youtube breakdown, discuss it on forums. But you cannot force yourself on people involved in the making of it, and demand a reaction
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
I am not sure what is worse. Zelas's horribly out of touch toxic defensive force argument or the fact they are oblivious to how toxic and excusing of bad behavior their argument is.

It doesn't make me angry. It makes me sad. As we clearly have so much educating to do on proper behavior and toxic entitlement.
 

CesareNorrez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,520
If you know someone as an acquaintance or less, you cannot give them constructive criticism. The person doesn't know you and whatever insight you have isn't going to mean anything. Approaching them in a casual atmosphere is even worse. It is rude. No matter how brilliant your point might be, it is not welcome and will not be received well. And this is on you as the person giving criticism, not on the person receiving it. Just don't do it. It's actually very easy to not criticize someone or the work they are involved in.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,105
UK
Now people are creating fanfic about Daisy to try and make it seem she was wrong. Totally normal.
Speaking of people like Zelas making fanfics in this thread, don't forget Liquidsnake's incredibly sad fictional date with Daisy Ridley.
If I were to engage in a conversation with Daisy at a party, I would approach it like its not a commentary on her performance, if anything she was the highlight along with Driver. It just wasn't written very well, and it was directed even poorer.
Im sure she would look at me and say hey do you wanna get out of here? And then we would end up at a deli in downtown, laughing and having fun while sharing a sandwich and curly fries, who knows what happens next.

I just know at the end of the night she thanks me for a great night out, and how she "almost forgot what it was like to have fun again," she slides me her number, and........................
It does develop, see my other post. We had a pretty cool night out.
...
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
I'm not even talking about actors, and constant abuse and harassment on social media.

Any person, any job, criticizing their work at a damned party is rude.


I work on a video game series and I get it a lot - often in appropriate public contexts or events -- and I have to wheel the conversation into productive discussion and criticism for diplomacy, civility and my mental health /liberty.

Usually it's easy enough and even the rare extremely negative fans IRL have enough social sophistication to understand that I'm engaging in good faith and I usually explain why decisions were made even if they're unpopular broadly or to a small group.

A real example of this from the weekend:

Fan: "why did you guys copy Call of Duty Aim Down Sights?"

Me: "Yes we added smart link - a feature in Halo since the first game on some guns - to all the weapons with left trigger pull because it's a convenient shorthand well understood by every other console FPS - and in Halo it doesn't really work like 'Aim Down Sights" because it doesn't snap to the target and what stickiness it has is based on the original weapon function. Medal of Honor did the reverse of that back in the day with the 'hail to the chief ' control scheme as a convenient and collegial nod.

We also do something similar with 'fishsticks' - a reference to COD. But it is not intended to nor does it function as a clone of the feature seen in other games and also cleans up some inconsistent expected weapon behaviors "

From my perspective I do owe them explanations in return for their dedication and custom - or I am willing to give them if they are willing to listen.

I never fib or dissemble and I am used to talking around spoilers or future secrets. So I sometimes judo into a different topic.

However I also understand that for every "blunt " fan who tells me without any nuance "you ruined the game when you did x" - (it's almost never something you'd expect like sprint or armor lock because the kind of person who even does this tends to have outlier opinions - always stated as if it's known, settled law - such as "ruined it when you put the covenant subtitles in localized language text instead of American") that the other 99.9% of fans were either polite or framed criticism as interesting and reasonable conversation "are you guys keeping sprint in the next game?" Or"i hope there are more chief missions next time!"

If I let the rare rude or toxic ones get to me I'd be doing a disservice to myself, the good fans and even the less socially skilled fans.

Every now and then (and it's extremely rare) I will encounter someone in person so outlandishly toxic that I can't actually manage diplomacy so I politely but firmly say 'thank you for your feedback' and remove myself from the situation. Luckily so far (aside from one or two clearly disturbed individuals and one dramatic day that involved Interpol, a serious and believable threat to my safety and an individual who was only prevented from carrying it out by good fortune) that's been about as bad as it gets and I think they've mostly sensed that my tether terminus has been reached. Apparently my face is not especially great at hiding that when I'm close to losing my temper or genuinely expecting a physical confrontation.

That's all in-person stuff. Online it's the wild west. Again 95% of people are Normal, polite or reasonable and in gaming forums criticism artfully directed to me directly is fine. I reject it out of hand in off topic places though :

Me: "I think iron man 2 was weaker than one and three and I thought it lacked focus and clarity "

Poster:"well you ruined halo by making it for sjws so you of all people shouldn't talk shit "

The missing context here is that I'm in a movie thread and I'm not speaking to Jon Favreau or Robert Downey or more accurately in terms of contribution -- the Key Grip or dolly technician for that film.

I also get heated when I see it happening to other professionals. There were a few threads on the old place where personal invective was spewed directly at creators participating of their own volition in threads about their creations. The mods and management were actually excellent at shutting that down but I used to fume seeing it happen - despite having a thicker skin for my own stuff.

I do worry from time to time that some isolated individuals are learning how to behave in real lofe - from totally socially incompatible online spaces where rhetorical modes are normally contained there and there alone.

The point is that you can absolutely converse with your audience honestly and openly about almost anything as long as basic civility is used. And sometimes that means yes, not discussing it at all.

There's zero good conversation to be had at a private birthday party by telling Daisy Ridley how shit you thought her work was. She sweated her ass off doing her best and making a critically and financially successful blockbuster. The fact that you don't care for it is subjective and better saved for discussion or argument with people who didn't make the damn thing. Or in a best case scenario productively discussed with a producer or writer who could actually do something with respectful feedback. From that perspective if you have one small shot at making a positive impact on something you're passionate about then wasting that opportunity with rude invective is foolish and counterproductive.

That awkward five minutes could have been spent asking optimistically about the future or fondly about the past. Or just talking about the weather if you don't have anything nice to say.
 

THErest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,092
I work on a video game series and I get it a lot - often in appropriate public contexts or events -- and I have to wheel the conversation into productive discussion and criticism for diplomacy, civility and my mental health /liberty.

Usually it's easy enough and even the rare extremely negative fans IRL have enough social sophistication to understand that I'm engaging in good faith and I usually explain why decisions were made even if they're unpopular broadly or to a small group.

A real example of this from the weekend:

Fan: "why did you guys copy Call of Duty Aim Down Sights?"

Me: "Yes we added smart link - a feature in Halo since the first game on some guns - to all the weapons with left trigger pull because it's a convenient shorthand well understood by every other console FPS - and in Halo it doesn't really work like 'Aim Down Sights" because it doesn't snap to the target and what stickiness it has is based on the original weapon function. Medal of Honor did the reverse of that back in the day with the 'hail to the chief ' control scheme as a convenient and collegial nod.

We also do something similar with 'fishsticks' - a reference to COD. But it is not intended to nor does it function as a clone of the feature seen in other games and also cleans up some inconsistent expected weapon behaviors "

From my perspective I do owe them explanations in return for their dedication and custom - or I am willing to give them if they are willing to listen.

I never fib or dissemble and I am used to talking around spoilers or future secrets. So I sometimes judo into a different topic.

However I also understand that for every "blunt " fan who tells me without any nuance "you ruined the game when you did x" - (it's almost never something you'd expect like sprint or armor lock because the kind of person who even does this tends to have outlier opinions - always stated as if it's known, settled law - such as "ruined it when you put the covenant subtitles in localized language text instead of American") that the other 99.9% of fans were either polite or framed criticism as interesting and reasonable conversation "are you guys keeping sprint in the next game?" Or"i hope there are more chief missions next time!"

If I let the rare rude or toxic ones get to me I'd be doing a disservice to myself, the good fans and even the less socially skilled fans.

Every now and then (and it's extremely rare) I will encounter someone in person so outlandishly toxic that I can't actually manage diplomacy so I politely but firmly say 'thank you for your feedback' and remove myself from the situation. Luckily so far (aside from one or two clearly disturbed individuals and one dramatic day that involved Interpol, a serious and believable threat to my safety and an individual who was only prevented from carrying it out by good fortune) that's been about as bad as it gets and I think they've mostly sensed that my tether terminus has been reached. Apparently my face is not especially great at hiding that when I'm close to losing my temper or genuinely expecting a physical confrontation.

That's all in-person stuff. Online it's the wild west. Again 95% of people are Normal, polite or reasonable and in gaming forums criticism artfully directed to me directly is fine. I reject it out of hand in off topic places though :

Me: "I think iron man 2 was weaker than one and three and I thought it lacked focus and clarity "

Poster:"well you ruined halo by making it for sjws so you of all people shouldn't talk shit "

The missing context here is that I'm in a movie thread and I'm not speaking to Jon Favreau or Robert Downey or more accurately in terms of contribution -- the Key Grip or dolly technician for that film.

I also get heated when I see it happening to other professionals. There were a few threads on the old place where personal invective was spewed directly at creators participating of their own volition in threads about their creations. The mods and management were actually excellent at shutting that down but I used to fume seeing it happen - despite having a thicker skin for my own stuff.

I do worry from time to time that some isolated individuals are learning how to behave in real lofe - from totally socially incompatible online spaces where rhetorical modes are normally contained there and there alone.

The point is that you can absolutely converse with your audience honestly and openly about almost anything as long as basic civility is used. And sometimes that means yes, not discussing it at all.

There's zero good conversation to be had at a private birthday party by telling Daisy Ridley how shit you thought her work was. She sweated her ass off doing her best and making a critically and financially successful blockbuster. The fact that you don't care for it is subjective and better saved for discussion or argument with people who didn't make the damn thing. Or in a best case scenario productively discussed with a producer or writer who could actually do something with respectful feedback. From that perspective if you have one small shot at making a positive impact on something you're passionate about then wasting that opportunity with rude invective is foolish and counterproductive.

That awkward five minutes could have been spent asking optimistically about the future or fondly about the past. Or just talking about the weather if you don't have anything nice to say.

Thank you for your personal insight!
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
I know we've spent a lot of energy going down the "criticism" rabbit hole, but since when was "I didn't like this thing" in this context, without anything else, even a criticism worth classifying? It sounds to me like a manifestation of the same need to be heard that drives a lot of toxic fandom. It isn't an attempt to add to the conversation or offer constructive feedback, it is planting your flag and wanting some sort of validation.
 

Roygbiv95

Alt account
Banned
Jan 24, 2019
1,037
There's zero good conversation to be had at a private birthday party by telling Daisy Ridley how shit you thought her work was. She sweated her ass off doing her best and making a critically and financially successful blockbuster. The fact that you don't care for it is subjective and better saved for discussion or argument with people who didn't make the damn thing. Or in a best case scenario productively discussed with a producer or writer who could actually do something with respectful feedback. From that perspective if you have one small shot at making a positive impact on something you're passionate about then wasting that opportunity with rude invective is foolish and counterproductive.

That awkward five minutes could have been spent asking optimistically about the future or fondly about the past. Or just talking about the weather if you don't have anything nice to say.

Oh I think there's no doubt that meeting an actress for the first time and early on saying "I liked one of your movies and did not care for the sequel" and leaving it hanging on that note can be rude and inhibits a more productive serious conversation. My question though, how do you quantify a statement like that NEVER has potential to lead into a exchange worth having? For example, a person saying it who later reveals it as an ironic joke making fun of that very rude behavior as a way of giving cathartic laughter to the actor. Or what if they have genuine mental illness/social problems and it ends up being an awkward but funny story you tell later? So something like that can be rude, and often would be, but how do you know 100% that when someone you're not familiar with opens with such a vague though admittedly rude-sounding take, it would in never result in an exchange worth having depending on where the person saying it is coming from, who they are, and why they're saying it?

Ultimately we're talking about mentioning to an actor nothing more than you're a fan of some of their movies, and not a fan of other movies they're in (which is as bad as the comment sparking the debate ITT gets). Opinions more toxic than that, like many of the passionate takes that frequently appear in messageboards and social media comment sections, I absolutely agree are best left out of discourse between someone and an artist about their work.

But whether or not an opinion amounting to "I'm a fan/not a fan of some of your work" someone is expressing is rude will depend on context of the person saying it and how the person it's being spoken too feels about it. The degree of how offensive it should be considered is not always certain unless you have that full context.
 
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