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Dangen Entertainment Allegedly Robbing Indie Devs? (Update: Medium article with more allegations, Dangen responds)

sheaaaa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
887
Alright so I’m going to be frank here: this forum supposedly prides itself on supporting people in vulnerable positions especially this facing mental issues and battles with depression or anxiety. Seems to me y’all should be paying closer attention to the behavior of all parties involved.

like it or not business is messy. There will always be issues and disagreements. Especially when you are such a small business and you’re still trying to grow and establish your place. No matter what issues there are that should never give free license to hateful personal attacks like some of the stuff shown in this article and this Sinoc guy comes across as a total asshole

some of the things in this article that are pointed to as an indictment of the Dangen team arejust petty. Highlighting how many views their streams and YouTube efforts have or attacking them for doing these sorts of things as effort to build up their brand is ridiculous.These things are common. Just look at all the stuff Double Fine did in regards to streams and videos when they started getting into the role of publishing games. They are trying to get their name out there and establish themselves so of course they’re gonna try to put themselves out there as much as possible.

Furthermore highlighting that someone plays games regularly as some sort of indictment of their character is dumb. We are on a games forum for Christ’s sake. Just because someone is playing games regularly doesn’t mean that their games or interests in other hobbies is interfering with their work. This is just shaming people for enjoying the things they want to and since when is that acceptable here? Because someone makes mistakes at their job they’re not allowed to enjoy playing games or reading comics? Stop it with that nonsense.

I have no idea who Ben Judd is but Nayan is a good dude and if he says he’s felt personally attacked then there’s reason for that. The developer’s quotes in that article come across as incredibly hostile, belligerent and hurtful and if that’s what they are sharing to make their side of the sorry come across well I can only imagine the sort of things that haven’t been shown here. So seems to me he had very good reason to feel that way.

Making business related errors and mistakes shouldn’t entitle people to be subject to vitriol like that. It’s unprofessional and its hurtful.

Given the way Nayan is characterized in this article it comes across to me like he was battling some personal demons and trying to deal with a whole new branch of business for their company. Y’all have no idea who he is or what he’s been dealing with and to cheer on folks spouting such hateful and hurtful things is INCREDIBLY disappointing to see.

Did Dangen get in over their head by taking on these deals? Yes it seems like they did and it seems like it’s something they should probably avoid in the future (if there even is one after this) until they have the experience and staffing to handle all the intracacies of them but that doesn’t suddenly mean it’s ok to rubber stamp abusive rhetoric. That sort of thing is not ok coming from anyone no matter what side of the situation they are on.Even the comments meant to show that the developer wasn’t hateful all the time are actually extremely hateful and derisive.

I’m really disappointed with how nonchalant so many here are with the sorts of communication shown in that article. I’m not excusing the mistakes made here in behalf of Dangen but I am saying that y’alls thirst for drama and condemnation is preventing you from seeing the humanity behind all of this. Whatever happens here I just hope Nayan’s ok.
It's quite clear from the article that everything mentioned is to contrast what Dangen had time to do - ie pointless bullshit or personal recreation - instead of actually doing the things they promised the developers they're working with.

I think you need to take a step back if your first reaction to any of this is as skewed and bizarre as this.
 

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,219
I took over as the third party publisher negotiator, a task that grated on me immensely as Dangen still demanded they receive 40% revenue share of any such third party deals, regardless of the reality that Dangen’s involvement had actively been a detriment to the proceedings and caused harm to our reputation.
The GamesIndustry.biz article has a particularly misleading quote, if not an outright lie, from Dan Stern.

“Like most publishers, Dangen makes money off royalties on the sales of games it publishes. And that’s the only way, Stern clarifies, adding that he doesn’t feel right about charging developers separately for every individual service that Dangen provides, whether it’s dev support, localization, or porting.”

This, however, is completely false. Dangen charges developers for localizations, and these charges are calculated completely separately from their share of royalties. These localization costs must be paid to Dangen before developers begin to see revenue share. For games with extremely long scripts, localization costs can be almost $25,000 USD per language — a huge burden which could mean that some developers may never see royalties accrue.
Personally, I don’t think this is unfair, and I think it is up to developers to carefully assess whether localizing to given languages is worth the cost and risk. I don’t understand why Dan Stern specifically felt the need to lie in this article about Dangen not charging developers for localization.
Yeah, uh, fuck Dangen.

And no wonder I stopped hearing about Fight Knight at some point.
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,762
God damn what a read. Creepy ass dude heading the company and incompetence all around. What. The. Fuck.

"Its ignition, not egnition..." cracked me up. What is going on over there lmao
 

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,508
So businesses operate by ghosting developers, failing to *ever* pay some of them, utilizing their work without consent, attempting to contract somebody into handing over all rights to their past and future works, consistently lying about timelines, and prioritizing their own little celebrity bubble over actually doing their fucking job as a publisher? Nah.
I don’t see anything about failing to ever pay people. What I did see were disputes and issues relating to taxes in Japan for overseas royalties which having dealt with the tax system in Japan does not surprise me in the least that it would pose a problem. Even provided you do everything by the book they often hold your funds for no conceivable reason. Banking and taxes are just unbelievably convoluted and frustrating to deal with when it comes to any sort of international transfer of funds.

Regarding the communication issues described it’s clear there were serious lapses in the communication between Dangen in the developers but as things grew more hostile I’m sure that made them a lot more wary and hesitant to reach out as well. If you have some attacking you, insulting you and generally just being a compete jerk it’s only natural to try to distance yourself. Whatever prolonged lapses in communication were probably a result of the person who would normally handle those things being worked around. The whole endeavor was a forced work around. That’s not to dismiss the issues here. Clearly Dangen should have done better but again that doesn’t give anyone license to attack someone or be so belligerent and hostile. All this does is complicate the communication issues even more.

The instances in which they used music without consent were and are not ok and that certainly does need to be addressed.

The issues with the contract were as the article notes likely due to the contract being a standard contract used in another company. Important to note here that the contract was never implemented due to those (very merited) objections and a new one was drafted that all parties agreed to. Was it irresponsible to use another company’s contract in lieu of creating their own absolutely yes but in a small business you’re often trying to save money wherever you can and while this would not be a concern I would ever cut I could see how someone would mistakenly think it was a good idea to save some money on legal costs.

Right so they dared host a planned anniversary event celebrating the anniversary of their studio before starting the nationally observed holiday that much of Japan also observed. They aren’t entitled to time off or celebrations especially when those celebration have them *gasp* drinking beers and talking about video games.

If you can’t see how none of that has anything to do with the actual very real issues presented in the article I don’t know what to tell you. It’s some petty BS.

People are sympathetic to the dev's assholish comments where they might otherwise not be because they're used to stories of developers being unilaterally trampled by exploitative or incompetent publishers, so it's cathartic to see a dev--hell, not even just a dev, anyone who's stuck answering to somebody in a position of authority they haven't really earned--not taking any nonsense.

I know of Nayan by his posts here, on the old board and elsewhere and I have no problem believing he's a nice guy and probably not a manipulative or spiteful business partner, but if even half the shit leveled at him in that post is true then I'm not at all surprised people lost patience with him.

Remember, these developers ceded a ton of control and a 40% cut to Dangen, and for what? So Dangen could withhold all their money, not deliver on marketing opportunities and blow off lucrative business opportunities on their behalf?
I mean yea you’re right it’s a mess and Dangen clearly dropped the ball here in a lot of different ways but no matter what we shouldn’t be condoning let alone cheering or celebrating the kind of stuff this dev engaged in.
 
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fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,337
Man, not good. I hope the DE dev can just get rights to their game back and handle publishing themselves. Worried about Bug Fables and Astalon now.
 

inguef

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,437
I don't know about the entirety of the story but the receipts are in the medium article for thetrin being completely inept at doing something that would have been a quick and simple task by including the game in the steam sale. His shrugging his mistake off as minor and offering to include it in a spring sale even longer after release whilst simultaneously telling the client to basically kick rocks until the was off vacation was just a slap in the face. He didn't seem very apologetic at all.
Making promises to Nintendo and sending random game builds without talking to the developer, wow. I hope the developers can get a new publisher somehow.
 

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,508
Yeah, uh, fuck Dangen.

And no wonder I stopped hearing about Fight Knight at some point.
It’s clear he means that they don’t charge anything as an up front itemized expense which is accurate. They take all the costs from the revenue of the game as a pre royalty expense and they don’t charge then all separately it all comes as one pre royalty expense. So effectively if the game doesn’t make enough to cover that expense they eat that cost.
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,126
Don't work with a publisher that hired Daniel Stern. What does he know about video games?
 

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,219
They fucking stole art assets and music. And are not paying people. And you are concerned over someone who is victim of both, not to mention many other issues, asking "where the fuck is me money" and calling said thieves "fresh fuckers" on a text chat.

Fucking priorities.
 
Jul 27, 2019
251
I don’t see anything about failing to ever pay people. What I did see were disputes and issues relating to taxes in Japan for overseas royalties which having dealt with the tax system in Japan does not surprise me in the least that it would pose a problem. Even provided you do everything by the book they often hold your funds for no conceivable reason. Banking and taxes are just unbelievably convoluted and frustrating to deal with when it comes to any sort of international transfer of funds.

Regarding the communication issues described it’s clear there were serious lapses in the communication between Dangen in the developers but as things grew more hostile I’m sure that made them a lot more wary and hesitant to reach out as well. If you have some attacking you, insulting you and generally just being a compete jerk it’s only natural to try to distance yourself. Whatever prolonged lapses in communication were probably a result of the person who would normally handle those things being worked around. The whole endeavor was a forced work around. That’s not to dismiss the issues here. Clearly Dangen should have done better but again that doesn’t give anyone license to attack someone or be so belligerent and hostile. All this does is complicate the communication issues even more.

The instances in which they used music without consent were and are not ok and that certainly does need to be addressed.

The issues with the contract were as the article notes likely due to the contract being a standard contract used in another company. Important to note here that the contract was never implemented due to those (very merited) objections and a new one was drafted that all parties agreed to. Was it irresponsible to use another company’s contract in lieu of creating their own absolutely yes but in a small business you’re often trying to save money wherever you can and while this would not be a concern I would ever cut I could see how someone would mistakenly think it was a good idea to save some money on legal costs.



Right so they dared host a planned anniversary event celebrating the anniversary of their studio before starting the nationally observed holiday that much of Japan also observed. They aren’t entitled to time off or celebrations especially when those celebration have them *gasp* drinking beers and talking about video games.

If you can’t see how none of that has anything to do with the actual very real issues presented in the article I don’t know what to tell you. It’s some petty BS.



I mean yea you’re right it’s a mess and Dangen clearly dropped the ball here in a lot of different ways but no matter what we shouldn’t be condoning let alone cheering or celebrating the kind of stuff this dev engaged in.
Publisher ruining lives and livelihoods through incompetence, neglect, and predatory behavior
"Yeah but the devs were mean though"

I dunno man, there's probably some fluff in that article, and we don't know the full story, but from what information is presented, and my observations with how Devil Engine has been (slowly, awkwardly) rolled out to the public, I'm inclined to believe the little guy.


edit: to be clear, of course if the dev is a generally abrasive person then that's not a good thing. But their anger appears to be justified here.
 
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astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,744
Alright so I’m going to be frank here: this forum supposedly prides itself on supporting people in vulnerable positions especially this facing mental issues and battles with depression or anxiety. Seems to me y’all should be paying closer attention to the behavior of all parties involved.

like it or not business is messy. There will always be issues and disagreements. Especially when you are such a small business and you’re still trying to grow and establish your place. No matter what issues there are that should never give free license to hateful personal attacks like some of the stuff shown in this article and this Sinoc guy comes across as a total asshole

some of the things in this article that are pointed to as an indictment of the Dangen team arejust petty. Highlighting how many views their streams and YouTube efforts have or attacking them for doing these sorts of things as effort to build up their brand is ridiculous.These things are common. Just look at all the stuff Double Fine did in regards to streams and videos when they started getting into the role of publishing games. They are trying to get their name out there and establish themselves so of course they’re gonna try to put themselves out there as much as possible.

Furthermore highlighting that someone plays games regularly as some sort of indictment of their character is dumb. We are on a games forum for Christ’s sake. Just because someone is playing games regularly doesn’t mean that their games or interests in other hobbies is interfering with their work. This is just shaming people for enjoying the things they want to and since when is that acceptable here? Because someone makes mistakes at their job they’re not allowed to enjoy playing games or reading comics? Stop it with that nonsense.

I have no idea who Ben Judd is but Nayan is a good dude and if he says he’s felt personally attacked then there’s reason for that. The developer’s quotes in that article come across as incredibly hostile, belligerent and hurtful and if that’s what they are sharing to make their side of the sorry come across well I can only imagine the sort of things that haven’t been shown here. So seems to me he had very good reason to feel that way.

Making business related errors and mistakes shouldn’t entitle people to be subject to vitriol like that. It’s unprofessional and its hurtful.

Given the way Nayan is characterized in this article it comes across to me like he was battling some personal demons and trying to deal with a whole new branch of business for their company. Y’all have no idea who he is or what he’s been dealing with and to cheer on folks spouting such hateful and hurtful things is INCREDIBLY disappointing to see.

Did Dangen get in over their head by taking on these deals? Yes it seems like they did and it seems like it’s something they should probably avoid in the future (if there even is one after this) until they have the experience and staffing to handle all the intracacies of them but that doesn’t suddenly mean it’s ok to rubber stamp abusive rhetoric. That sort of thing is not ok coming from anyone no matter what side of the situation they are on.Even the comments meant to show that the developer wasn’t hateful all the time are actually extremely hateful and derisive.

I’m really disappointed with how nonchalant so many here are with the sorts of communication shown in that article. I’m not excusing the mistakes made here in behalf of Dangen but I am saying that y’alls thirst for drama and condemnation is preventing you from seeing the humanity behind all of this. Whatever happens here I just hope Nayan’s ok.
The dev in question seems like a bit of a dick to be honest, not just their comments in that article but their personal twitter too.

While their conduct and the effect their words had are something to be critical of, they are right to be pissed at the incompetence on show here.

There is enough evidence to show Dangen as in the wrong here, and personal troubles do not excuse such a poor job supporting their clients. And the CEOs perfomance both personal and professional has been awful.

Compassion doesn't mean hand waiving incompetence, and given the evidence presented in the medium post I think bringing up the fact he team seemed more focused on their brand and down time while making constant excuses why they couldn't resolve issues is MORE than fair.

Of course, this is all based on the one article which could very well be exaggerated in places, but the picture it paints is compelling.
 

Cian

Member
Feb 17, 2018
336
Alright so I’m going to be frank here: this forum supposedly prides itself on supporting people in vulnerable positions especially this facing mental issues and battles with depression or anxiety. Seems to me y’all should be paying closer attention to the behavior of all parties involved.

like it or not business is messy. There will always be issues and disagreements. Especially when you are such a small business and you’re still trying to grow and establish your place. No matter what issues there are that should never give free license to hateful personal attacks like some of the stuff shown in this article and this Sinoc guy comes across as a total asshole

some of the things in this article that are pointed to as an indictment of the Dangen team arejust petty. Highlighting how many views their streams and YouTube efforts have or attacking them for doing these sorts of things as effort to build up their brand is ridiculous.These things are common. Just look at all the stuff Double Fine did in regards to streams and videos when they started getting into the role of publishing games. They are trying to get their name out there and establish themselves so of course they’re gonna try to put themselves out there as much as possible.

Furthermore highlighting that someone plays games regularly as some sort of indictment of their character is dumb. We are on a games forum for Christ’s sake. Just because someone is playing games regularly doesn’t mean that their games or interests in other hobbies is interfering with their work. This is just shaming people for enjoying the things they want to and since when is that acceptable here? Because someone makes mistakes at their job they’re not allowed to enjoy playing games or reading comics? Stop it with that nonsense.

I have no idea who Ben Judd is but Nayan is a good dude and if he says he’s felt personally attacked then there’s reason for that. The developer’s quotes in that article come across as incredibly hostile, belligerent and hurtful and if that’s what they are sharing to make their side of the sorry come across well I can only imagine the sort of things that haven’t been shown here. So seems to me he had very good reason to feel that way.

Making business related errors and mistakes shouldn’t entitle people to be subject to vitriol like that. It’s unprofessional and its hurtful.

Given the way Nayan is characterized in this article it comes across to me like he was battling some personal demons and trying to deal with a whole new branch of business for their company. Y’all have no idea who he is or what he’s been dealing with and to cheer on folks spouting such hateful and hurtful things is INCREDIBLY disappointing to see.

Did Dangen get in over their head by taking on these deals? Yes it seems like they did and it seems like it’s something they should probably avoid in the future (if there even is one after this) until they have the experience and staffing to handle all the intracacies of them but that doesn’t suddenly mean it’s ok to rubber stamp abusive rhetoric. That sort of thing is not ok coming from anyone no matter what side of the situation they are on.Even the comments meant to show that the developer wasn’t hateful all the time are actually extremely hateful and derisive.

I’m really disappointed with how nonchalant so many here are with the sorts of communication shown in that article. I’m not excusing the mistakes made here in behalf of Dangen but I am saying that y’alls thirst for drama and condemnation is preventing you from seeing the humanity behind all of this. Whatever happens here I just hope Nayan’s ok.
Good PR work here, Dangen should pay you for it, but it seems like that's not their style.
 

Luckett_X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,091
Leeds, UK
This is another example of why the word 'toxic' lost all meaning over the last few years. Dangen did a repeatedly shit job, annoyed one of their clients greatly, and the relationship soured accordingly. The person responsible came close to getting fired, but instead spun it round that the dev was 'toxic' and... what, thus deserved being lied to, not paid, and forced to miss business opportunities and big promo seasons? Especially when its revealed that someone else is doing a lot of their job for less pay, so they can go be 'creative' in Destiny.

I've been highly skeptical of most of the Indie Publisher labels that cropped up over the last decade because they just seem more exploitative than helpful, and hearing that even Devolver has big problems with sorting financial shit out certainly doesn't feed confidence that many if any know what they're actually doing.
 

Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,867
The dev seems like kind of an asshole for sure, but when your argument boils down to "How dare they be angry that Dangen's apathetic, negligent and arguably malicious behavior threatens their livelihood" you need to stop.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
I don't think this changes anything outlined in the article but apparently the DE dev is/was a GGer? this is secondhand as the tweets I've seen referenced which allegedly contained proof of this were deleted
 

Intraxidance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
677
Everything needs a defense force.

..even when that thing dropped every conceivable ball possible. Of course the devs are going to get pissed when your publisher is fucking you in almost every way.
I am absolutely not trying to defend Dangen, but also keep in mind an article like this is designed to push a specific narrative that is beneficial to the author. They should be given the opportunity to defend themselves, though with the amount of evidence pushed in that article they are seemingly at best incompetent, and at worst treating the indie developers maliciously.

I still don't quite understand what the author's job is, since she doesn't work for Dangen, but appears to have an important role on multiple games that are in their catalog.

I don't think this changes anything outlined in the article but apparently the DE dev is/was a GGer? this is secondhand as the tweets I've seen referenced which allegedly contained proof of this were deleted
Even if he was/is a gamergater...so what?
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,744
I am absolutely not trying to defend Dangen, but also keep in mind an article like this is designed to push a specific narrative that is beneficial to the author. They should be given the opportunity to defend themselves, though with the amount of evidence pushed in that article they are seemingly at best incompetent, and at worst treating the indie developers maliciously.

I still don't quite understand what the author's job is, since she doesn't work for Dangen, but appears to have an important role on multiple games that are in their catalog.
The article brings enough receipts to strongly weigh it as legitimate.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,337
Notable that Devil Engine is the only Dangen game (besides the just recently released Bug Fables) that's not included in the Steam Black Friday sales. It's also only ever gotten an eShop sale once last April.

Also despite their deal apparently being terminated last summer Dangen still have Fight Knight on their website and credit themselves with publishing, localization and marketing.
 

Oregano

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,946
I think I'd say a lot worse if someone was screwing me out at least $7K, whether through malice or incompetence.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,744
Yeah, for sure. Can't believe people are really tone policing the person that wants money for their job
I think it's fine to call out toxic behaviour even if it has a clear root cause, and I do think that dev was overly toxic in their responses.... but their responses don't change anything about the behaviours and actions of Dangen, they were being dismissive, evasive, and negligent long before the dev got pissed at them, and seemed to relish the opportunity to become defensive.

I personally wouldn't want to support the dev of that game as they seem to be a total dick, honestly, but that doesn't excuse Dengen here at all.
 

Ryuman

Member
Nov 1, 2017
294
Alright so I’m going to be frank here: this forum supposedly prides itself on supporting people in vulnerable positions especially this facing mental issues and battles with depression or anxiety. Seems to me y’all should be paying closer attention to the behavior of all parties involved.

like it or not business is messy. There will always be issues and disagreements. Especially when you are such a small business and you’re still trying to grow and establish your place. No matter what issues there are that should never give free license to hateful personal attacks like some of the stuff shown in this article and this Sinoc guy comes across as a total asshole

some of the things in this article that are pointed to as an indictment of the Dangen team arejust petty. Highlighting how many views their streams and YouTube efforts have or attacking them for doing these sorts of things as effort to build up their brand is ridiculous.These things are common. Just look at all the stuff Double Fine did in regards to streams and videos when they started getting into the role of publishing games. They are trying to get their name out there and establish themselves so of course they’re gonna try to put themselves out there as much as possible.

Furthermore highlighting that someone plays games regularly as some sort of indictment of their character is dumb. We are on a games forum for Christ’s sake. Just because someone is playing games regularly doesn’t mean that their games or interests in other hobbies is interfering with their work. This is just shaming people for enjoying the things they want to and since when is that acceptable here? Because someone makes mistakes at their job they’re not allowed to enjoy playing games or reading comics? Stop it with that nonsense.

I have no idea who Ben Judd is but Nayan is a good dude and if he says he’s felt personally attacked then there’s reason for that. The developer’s quotes in that article come across as incredibly hostile, belligerent and hurtful and if that’s what they are sharing to make their side of the sorry come across well I can only imagine the sort of things that haven’t been shown here. So seems to me he had very good reason to feel that way.

Making business related errors and mistakes shouldn’t entitle people to be subject to vitriol like that. It’s unprofessional and its hurtful.

Given the way Nayan is characterized in this article it comes across to me like he was battling some personal demons and trying to deal with a whole new branch of business for their company. Y’all have no idea who he is or what he’s been dealing with and to cheer on folks spouting such hateful and hurtful things is INCREDIBLY disappointing to see.

Did Dangen get in over their head by taking on these deals? Yes it seems like they did and it seems like it’s something they should probably avoid in the future (if there even is one after this) until they have the experience and staffing to handle all the intracacies of them but that doesn’t suddenly mean it’s ok to rubber stamp abusive rhetoric. That sort of thing is not ok coming from anyone no matter what side of the situation they are on.Even the comments meant to show that the developer wasn’t hateful all the time are actually extremely hateful and derisive.

I’m really disappointed with how nonchalant so many here are with the sorts of communication shown in that article. I’m not excusing the mistakes made here in behalf of Dangen but I am saying that y’alls thirst for drama and condemnation is preventing you from seeing the humanity behind all of this. Whatever happens here I just hope Nayan’s ok.
It's very possible to both be a dick and get screwed over unfairly by a crappy company. Jumping in because Nayan is your friend or something and shielding any criticism because you randomly read that he is suffering personal/mental health struggles is incredibly misguided and somewhat manipulative. You seem concerned at the dev's unprofessional behaviour but having read the article I see nothing that is at least in spirit unwarranted. I don't think their personal character even matters at this point considering the demonstrable (and unprofessional in their own right) failings of Nayan, Judd and Dangen as a whole. Even with your personal defence of Nayan, the article is clear that Judd himself proposed his termination before the team brought him up by name. I'm sorry if your friend is dealing with issues that make him bad at his job, but perhaps he should consider a new line of work, or better, Dangen should stop pursuing this line of business entirely.

Everything here is viewed in context of the entire situation. There is no problem with personal leisure, but in conjunction with the numerous communication breakdowns (and outright lies) it becomes entirely unacceptable. Ignoring your responsibilities in such a delicate situation regardless of whether or not you'll receive angry words (born from your own mishandling of the situation) is frankly stupid especially considering an entirely separate person is putting in the work -completely unpaid- to pick up the slack.

That is to say nothing of the whole host of other serious issues that you ignored in your initial post, although you did follow up in another post these have essentially been brushed to the side.

Maybe you are the one who should reflect more deeply on the realities of business. No one here is saying anything that isn't justified.
 

devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,996
I think it's fine to call out toxic behaviour even if it has a clear root cause, and I do think that dev was overly toxic in their responses.... but their responses don't change anything about the behaviours and actions of Dangen, they were being dismissive, evasive, and negligent long before the dev got pissed at them, and seemed to relish the opportunity to become defensive.

I personally wouldn't want to support the dev of that game as they seem to be a total dick, honestly, but that doesn't excuse Dengen here at all.
Same. The only part of that post that mystified me was the attempt at defending against the developer being toxic in their exchanges with the publisher.

Saying they had the right to be toxic or they were driven to it is one thing. Trying to deny any toxicity whatsoever (and then posting even more toxic messages to support that argument) damages the strength of the allegations.
 

FenninRo

Member
Nov 13, 2019
83
The whole company really comes across as the stereotypical loser westerners that go to Japan because they suck in their home country. Judd especially... dude's got a wife and kids and seems to be constantly out there sleezing on women.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,605
I think it's fine to call out toxic behaviour even if it has a clear root cause, and I do think that dev was overly toxic in their responses.... but their responses don't change anything about the behaviours and actions of Dangen, they were being dismissive, evasive, and negligent long before the dev got pissed at them, and seemed to relish the opportunity to become defensive.

I personally wouldn't want to support the dev of that game as they seem to be a total dick, honestly, but that doesn't excuse Dengen here at all.
That's more or less where I'm at, I haven't nor do I plan to not support the dev but holy shit at the person here excusing the godawful practices at Dangen.
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,819
I'm not sure what the DE dev's personal history and comments have to do with anything here.
Guy's rightfully pissed because his money is being fucked with.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,744
I'm not sure what the DE dev's personal history and comments have to do with anything here.
Guy's rightfully pissed because his money is being fucked with.
Being justifiably angry doesn't excuse toxic hostility. We can understand Dangen are in the wrong and be on the side of the dev overall AND call out their shitty behaviour too.
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,023
Well this sucks, especially considering they were doing the western release of Kaga's Vestaria Saga. No wonder we haven't heard anything about it yet despite being listed for 2019.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,343
I unfortunately figured this would overlap with Judd specifically, and that Medium article wastes no time in making that clear.
 

inguef

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,437
Being justifiably angry doesn't excuse toxic hostility. We can understand Dangen are in the wrong and be on the side of the dev overall AND call out their shitty behaviour too.
Stop making this about the devs. This is the worst kind of whataboutism, you should be ashamed.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,744
Stop making this about the devs. The difference is that the devs have every right to be angry. This is the worst kind of whataboutism, you should be ashamed.
And you should be embarrassed of your weird attempt to spin, when everyone can clearly see my posts are not doing that at all.

My post that you literaly just quoted undid your comment before it even began...
 

Uhyve

Member
Oct 25, 2017
388
Being justifiably angry doesn't excuse toxic hostility. We can understand Dangen are in the wrong and be on the side of the dev overall AND call out their shitty behaviour too.
A publisher endangered the livelihoods of multiple indie devs, but your concern is that the gamedevs were mean?
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,744
A publisher endangered the livelihoods of multiple indie devs, but your concern is that the gamedevs were mean?
You clearly didn't read my posts, at all, if this is your take.

We can acknowledge that the dev was toxic without it being a defense of what happened to them. If you actually read the conversation, you'll see all I was doing was countering the idea that toxic behaviour is immune to critique just because anger is justified.

I am fully on the side of the devs here, that doesn't change because I acknowledge this.
 

Uhyve

Member
Oct 25, 2017
388
You clearly didn't read my posts, at all, if this is your take.

We can acknowledge that the dev was toxic without it being a defense of what happened to them. If you actually read the conversation, you'll see all I was doing was countering the idea that toxic behaviour is immune to critique just because anger is justified.

I am fully on the side of the devs here, that doesn't change because I acknowledge this.
You don't see how it can come across as 'no angel-ing' victims?
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,313
I think it’s pretty clear that at least some of the people sympathetic towards Dangen staff are not at all sympathetic towards how the company is run or Ben Judd, and are fully on the dev’s side of the matter all said and done even if the conduct is somewhat disagreeable to them.

I mean some are more clearer than others.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,744
EDIT: nvm, this is pointless now. It's not the dev's fault, at all, and I have been more than clear on that.
 

ZeroDotFlow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
409
The weird tone policing against someone who is justifiably pissed off because their publisher is holding their livelihood back really isn't necessary at all. I didn't see anything that fell into deep toxicity. Asshole yes, but he might've been less of an ass if Dangen didn't behave like scum.

My response to any company that would try to pull shit on me is 'fuck you, pay me'.
 

inguef

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,437
The weird tone policing against someone who is justifiably pissed off because their publisher is holding their livelihood back really isn't necessary at all. I didn't see anything that fell into deep toxicity. Asshole yes, but he might've been less of an ass if Dangen didn't behave like scum.

My response to any company that would try to pull shit on me is 'fuck you, pay me'.
.

And that would be the correct, professional response.