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Dangen Entertainment Robbing Indie Devs? (Updates Threadmarked)
- Thread starter Theswweet
- Start date
I mean... I sort of get it? Sinoc seems kind of unbearable on twitter.
soooooo basically the musician and artist are being stingy and seized the assets from the game, continuing the IP hold in a new form? is that what I'm getting at? They could dump the ost and redo a new one I guess but how will the game exist if the artist is mad? isn't the art still owned by the dev? redoing the entire art would just basically lead to the game being dead. Then again it could be like Starr Mazer and they just continue on anyway despite attempts at dmcas or whatever happens
So the Dangen side of the matter is finally resolved though now there are issues between the developer, lead/main artist, and musician that are once again holding the game/back.
Crazy mess this game continues to be in.
Crazy mess this game continues to be in.
Yes, but also we don't know with this new developer infighting.
Looks like a lot of twitter posts into 2020 are also deleted.
Nothing about that statement says "stingy" to me, just that they're sick of that guy being a jackass in public and no longer want their work associated with him.
I guess? But if my game was stolen I'd act just as aggressive as him if not moreso. I can't imagine why they wouldn't understand his mindset considering the events that took place, and the fact others backed up Dangen's history of being controlling AF and whatnot makes it very unlikely he made anything up. Complex for sure... Maybe I'll ask a friend of mine in the know about it in private
I feel like there's something missing from this story. I wonder what the internal conflict is all about?
It's possible some of that statement is the price to get untangled with Dangen. That said, from memory the writer of the original dangen warning posts did note that Sinoc would lash out as he got frustrated when Dangen were messing him around, so there's no doubt an element of that to it.
I hope Sinoc, the writer and everyone else affected by Dangen are doing ok now.
I hope Sinoc, the writer and everyone else affected by Dangen are doing ok now.
Last edited:
Qwesta (@Qwesta6) Tweeted: PLEASE do not buy Devil Engine or Devil Engine's OST on Steam, I, nor any of my other collaborators aside from Sinoc are seeing any of that money.
https://twitter.com/Qwesta6/status/1349006676603580423?s=20
So whats happening here?
https://twitter.com/Qwesta6/status/1349006676603580423?s=20
So whats happening here?
A dispute between Sinoc and the two other people involved in the game, clearly Sinoc's messages in the past about this whole ordeal do not represent the sentiments of the rest of the team.
This is pretty much where I'm at. Dangen's side always seemed jacked up but Sinoc never seemed to be a reasonable person or even truly seeking resolution. How unfortunate.
No thats not it. It seems that Sinoc is not paying its musicians? Wtf after all he went through?
Wait, this could mean Devil Engine Ignition will still be in publishing hell, never seeing the light again or at least for the foreseeable future, am I right?
What a waste
What a waste
Just noticed that the Devil Engine situation has been updated, and they got a new Twitter account (old one is still up):
Link to the Steam post in question: Protoculture Games Response to Allegations Regarding DEVIL ENGINE :: Devil Engine Allmänna diskussioner (steamcommunity.com)
Copied below in the spoilered text in case it gets removed.
The conflict seems far removed from the Dangen situation at this point, but I figured I'd share it here to give some closure. If someone wants to create a thread, go ahead. Just noticed that Fight Knight has gotten its steam back since some month back as well?
Link to the Steam post in question: Protoculture Games Response to Allegations Regarding DEVIL ENGINE :: Devil Engine Allmänna diskussioner (steamcommunity.com)
Copied below in the spoilered text in case it gets removed.
The conflict seems far removed from the Dangen situation at this point, but I figured I'd share it here to give some closure. If someone wants to create a thread, go ahead. Just noticed that Fight Knight has gotten its steam back since some month back as well?
Protoculture Games Response to Allegations Regarding DEVIL ENGINE
Protoculture Games has been negotiating with other parties regarding some of the content present in DEVIL ENGINE. Those parties are making public allegations about the state of the negotiations, as well as many other things. While our lawyer has advised us not to get into social media fights, we would like to make the following statements:
1) It is absolutely not true that the other parties have not gotten any money from sales of DEVIL ENGINE. They received a substantial payment from initial sales of DEVIL ENGINE. We have also only gotten one payment from sales of DEVIL ENGINE, since it was being sold by a third-party publisher. Since that initial payment, which was divided in a way that everyone involved agreed on, no funds were distributed from the third-party publisher, to either us or the other parties, for a lot of complex reasons.
2) Protoculture Games, LLC, the company that actually developed and sells DEVIL ENGINE, paid an experienced video game attorney to handle – quite successfully – the reversion of rights to DEVIL ENGINE out of its own funds. This is the only reason there is any money or any rights to argue about in the first place. As part of that mutual agreement with the third-party publisher, the rights have reverted and the royalty situation has been satisfactorily resolved. We kept the other parties informed of these negotiations and they agreed to wait until an agreement was reached before working on resolving the current situation. We appreciate their cooperation with that process.
3) The payments we are currently accused of not sharing are being held in escrow by our attorney: they were paid directly to him, at our request, and with notice to the other parties that we were going to do this. The money is being held in our lawyer's trust account. We have directed him to pay what both sides have already agreed is a reasonable share to the other parties, unconditionally, upon their telling him where to send the money. The money is literally theirs for the asking. When we say unconditionally, we mean it. We will not even ask them to continue negotiating with us if they do not want to, let alone actually sign an agreement if they do not want to enter into one.
4) We will pay out all future royalties as we get them from the platforms DEVIL ENGINE is sold through in the same way. This offer is both to show our good faith, and because we feel it is the right thing to do. We will of course also provide reasonable sales reports so they know we are paying them what we have both agreed is a reasonable share.
5) Like many small gamedev startups, there was a lot of informality during the development of DEVIL ENGINE. Now, years and a very successful indie game later, there is confusion about rights, there are hurt feelings, and there are a lot of accusations from multiple people, about multiple people. Our lawyer says that we are allowed to say that this really, really sucks and we wish it was different. But it is what it is and we would like to negotiate a reasonable settlement with everyone involved. If they are determined not to negotiate, that is their choice.
6) That said, after consulting with our attorney, we have decided to continue to sell DEVIL ENGINE, with its original content. If anyone takes legal action against us, we will respond appropriately and according to our legal rights.
Thanks to all of the great fans who have made DEVIL ENGINE such a fantastic experience for us. Whatever happens, we know we made a great game that people loved. We hope to keep making it available for new fans for a long time to come.
Protoculture Games has been negotiating with other parties regarding some of the content present in DEVIL ENGINE. Those parties are making public allegations about the state of the negotiations, as well as many other things. While our lawyer has advised us not to get into social media fights, we would like to make the following statements:
1) It is absolutely not true that the other parties have not gotten any money from sales of DEVIL ENGINE. They received a substantial payment from initial sales of DEVIL ENGINE. We have also only gotten one payment from sales of DEVIL ENGINE, since it was being sold by a third-party publisher. Since that initial payment, which was divided in a way that everyone involved agreed on, no funds were distributed from the third-party publisher, to either us or the other parties, for a lot of complex reasons.
2) Protoculture Games, LLC, the company that actually developed and sells DEVIL ENGINE, paid an experienced video game attorney to handle – quite successfully – the reversion of rights to DEVIL ENGINE out of its own funds. This is the only reason there is any money or any rights to argue about in the first place. As part of that mutual agreement with the third-party publisher, the rights have reverted and the royalty situation has been satisfactorily resolved. We kept the other parties informed of these negotiations and they agreed to wait until an agreement was reached before working on resolving the current situation. We appreciate their cooperation with that process.
3) The payments we are currently accused of not sharing are being held in escrow by our attorney: they were paid directly to him, at our request, and with notice to the other parties that we were going to do this. The money is being held in our lawyer's trust account. We have directed him to pay what both sides have already agreed is a reasonable share to the other parties, unconditionally, upon their telling him where to send the money. The money is literally theirs for the asking. When we say unconditionally, we mean it. We will not even ask them to continue negotiating with us if they do not want to, let alone actually sign an agreement if they do not want to enter into one.
4) We will pay out all future royalties as we get them from the platforms DEVIL ENGINE is sold through in the same way. This offer is both to show our good faith, and because we feel it is the right thing to do. We will of course also provide reasonable sales reports so they know we are paying them what we have both agreed is a reasonable share.
5) Like many small gamedev startups, there was a lot of informality during the development of DEVIL ENGINE. Now, years and a very successful indie game later, there is confusion about rights, there are hurt feelings, and there are a lot of accusations from multiple people, about multiple people. Our lawyer says that we are allowed to say that this really, really sucks and we wish it was different. But it is what it is and we would like to negotiate a reasonable settlement with everyone involved. If they are determined not to negotiate, that is their choice.
6) That said, after consulting with our attorney, we have decided to continue to sell DEVIL ENGINE, with its original content. If anyone takes legal action against us, we will respond appropriately and according to our legal rights.
Thanks to all of the great fans who have made DEVIL ENGINE such a fantastic experience for us. Whatever happens, we know we made a great game that people loved. We hope to keep making it available for new fans for a long time to come.
OP
OP
Developer response to current situation
I'm not sure how much I'm comfortable saying publicly but basically the entire team save for Sinoc got exhausted with his impatience with the Dangen situation. We had several deals lined up to close things out with Dangen and move on with new publishers, but essentially Sinoc began lying to press/industry people behind our back repeatedly. At first it was mostly highly exaggerated versions of our grievances against Dangen, then it became outright horrible slander towards other developers he deemed his enemies. He began posting my private information and claiming I was his lawyer or told him that doing xyz things was okay.
While I understood his anger, the way he chose to continue lashing that anger out publicly was beginning to be impossible to work with. By this I mean his methods were counter productive, in violation of any of the contracts I was trying to negotiate, and potentially harmful for the team's reputation as a whole. He was no longer someone I felt comfortable helping for nearly free. I was offered essentially any price I wanted in order to continue managing the situation, but money had never been my concern. He was supposed to be a dear friend I was helping out of a sticky situation, but it became clear how little he valued us as people beyond what we could do for him.
We repeatedly told him to stop posting that kind of stuff in private over the first half of 2020 but it became clear he had no intention to stop and no remorse for the trouble it caused. He used his mental health as an excuse and I had great sympathy for that until I realized he was essentially determined to continue to throw a tantrum for as long as he didn't get exactly his way on exactly his schedule.
Finally we gave him an ultimatum regarding his habit of posting NDA/private info/lies/insults in public on Twitter/4chan. He kept thinking if he deleted it after getting caught it'd be no big deal. We told him we'd quit if he did that one more time. He tried to post my private emails on 4chan less than 24 hours after this. So, we all officially quit.
Sinoc tried to give up access to the official Protoculture Twitter account as a way of proving that he was really actually definitely sorry this time, to try and keep the team working on their next project. But after 6+ months constantly begging him to stop causing trouble, and even less than 24 hours later reposting the exact same private email alongside some insults about another developer, we just couldn't really deal with it anymore.
I referred a lawyer to Sinoc and I tried to maintain contact between us and the lawyer in order to close the situation out gracefully. But after months of negotiations it became apparent Sinoc was going around telling people I'd stolen his money and that he was planning on tricking the artist and musician into signing a contract that would cut them off from further royalties.
We tried discussing it with the lawyer and he suddenly claimed that they had the right to sell the team's work without their permission. Which begs the question why was he even speaking to us for months about acquiring our consent lol.
So that's sort of the rough overview of what's happening there. Obviously everyone involved finds it all to be very unpleasant. For me I feel really ashamed to have enabled and defended Sinoc's behavior in the past but haven't had the good health to really involve myself much more.
I only wrote about things I personally witnessed or had concrete evidence regarding Dangen's actions, so I stand by what I wrote regarding them. However, I've deeply regret trying to defend Sinoc for roughly a year now. I truly didn't think he would turn around and slander us after all of the effort and support we put into supporting not just Devil Engine as a project but him as our personal friend.
But, I was wrong to defend his behavior, so I wanted to say as much and apologize for that now. I wish Devil Engine Ignition could've come out with everybody happy, but I don't foresee that happening.
The artist, musician, and I have all moved on to other projects/pursuits and don't really want to manage Sinoc's tantrums any longer. That may be harsh/unprofessional to admit but personally I feel like I've lost years of my life solely due to the stress of constantly managing his outbursts, so my patience has worn very thin on the subject. I hope Sinoc just purchases new assets and moves on as well.
While I understood his anger, the way he chose to continue lashing that anger out publicly was beginning to be impossible to work with. By this I mean his methods were counter productive, in violation of any of the contracts I was trying to negotiate, and potentially harmful for the team's reputation as a whole. He was no longer someone I felt comfortable helping for nearly free. I was offered essentially any price I wanted in order to continue managing the situation, but money had never been my concern. He was supposed to be a dear friend I was helping out of a sticky situation, but it became clear how little he valued us as people beyond what we could do for him.
We repeatedly told him to stop posting that kind of stuff in private over the first half of 2020 but it became clear he had no intention to stop and no remorse for the trouble it caused. He used his mental health as an excuse and I had great sympathy for that until I realized he was essentially determined to continue to throw a tantrum for as long as he didn't get exactly his way on exactly his schedule.
Finally we gave him an ultimatum regarding his habit of posting NDA/private info/lies/insults in public on Twitter/4chan. He kept thinking if he deleted it after getting caught it'd be no big deal. We told him we'd quit if he did that one more time. He tried to post my private emails on 4chan less than 24 hours after this. So, we all officially quit.
Sinoc tried to give up access to the official Protoculture Twitter account as a way of proving that he was really actually definitely sorry this time, to try and keep the team working on their next project. But after 6+ months constantly begging him to stop causing trouble, and even less than 24 hours later reposting the exact same private email alongside some insults about another developer, we just couldn't really deal with it anymore.
I referred a lawyer to Sinoc and I tried to maintain contact between us and the lawyer in order to close the situation out gracefully. But after months of negotiations it became apparent Sinoc was going around telling people I'd stolen his money and that he was planning on tricking the artist and musician into signing a contract that would cut them off from further royalties.
We tried discussing it with the lawyer and he suddenly claimed that they had the right to sell the team's work without their permission. Which begs the question why was he even speaking to us for months about acquiring our consent lol.
So that's sort of the rough overview of what's happening there. Obviously everyone involved finds it all to be very unpleasant. For me I feel really ashamed to have enabled and defended Sinoc's behavior in the past but haven't had the good health to really involve myself much more.
I only wrote about things I personally witnessed or had concrete evidence regarding Dangen's actions, so I stand by what I wrote regarding them. However, I've deeply regret trying to defend Sinoc for roughly a year now. I truly didn't think he would turn around and slander us after all of the effort and support we put into supporting not just Devil Engine as a project but him as our personal friend.
But, I was wrong to defend his behavior, so I wanted to say as much and apologize for that now. I wish Devil Engine Ignition could've come out with everybody happy, but I don't foresee that happening.
The artist, musician, and I have all moved on to other projects/pursuits and don't really want to manage Sinoc's tantrums any longer. That may be harsh/unprofessional to admit but personally I feel like I've lost years of my life solely due to the stress of constantly managing his outbursts, so my patience has worn very thin on the subject. I hope Sinoc just purchases new assets and moves on as well.
Damn that's awful Dwarn, I hope for all the best to you, the artist and the musician from Devil Engine, hope that this can be all completely over for all of you soon. :(
dang, that's just really upsetting. So dangen still screwed everyone over, but negotiations and all the stuff that could have fixed it sooner were hampered due to constant NDA breakings by sinoc? That explains a lot, considering how some things got "leaked" by him often and he then was forced to remove said posts, before claiming that he was "silenced" in the process.
Devil Engine delisted on Steam amid legal disputes among its creators
https://delistedgames.com/devil-engine-delisted-on-steam-amid-legal-dispute-among-its-creators/ For people who are unaware that anything was happening, check out the Dangen stealing from indie devs thread...
www.resetera.com
IMO, don't buy the game, it's not clear at least right now what's the situation. I assume the artists and musicians are probably not getting paid yet tho since nothing was said on the announcement.