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Oct 27, 2017
13,464
Even after the launch of his studio's debut title, Dan Vavra remains on the defensive following criticisms over the lack of diversty in Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

Speaking at Reboot Develop today, co-founder and creative director Vavra disputed the notion that the game might be vehicle for his own political views. The developer has been associated with the GamerGate movement, often described as a hate group, and has been known to oppose 'social justice warriors' and feminists via social media.

"I wrote ten per cent of the game," he clarified. "Six other people wrote it with me. There's an anarchist sitting with me in the office, there are liberal guys sitting with me in the office. So it has no propaganda because there are more people with the opposite political views to what I have in the same office. We didn't kill each other, we're able to cooperate so it's ridiculous.

"They wrote the game, like 90 per cent of it - yeah, I wrote the heart of the main story, but 90 per cent of the actual writing is done by someone else. So even if I wanted, it would be quite tough to force all those people to do something against their will. It doesn't work like that. We have an open, flat-like structure to company so anybody can tell me to fuck off, basically."

"It all started without anyone asking us for an opinion," he said.

"They even went to Twitter and looked at things I liked," he said. "It's not what you say, but even stuff you like. So I liked something by Eric Trump, it was non-political stuff but I liked something and Trump is a terrible person so I am a terrible person as well. It was absolutely ridiculous."

It's worth noting that the media has previously reported on attitudes he has expressed via Twitter, including comparing Apple boss Tim Cook to ISIS and feminist critic Anita Sarkeesian to book-burning Nazis.

When a member of the audience asked if he believed the controversy could have led to a more reasoable discussion, he said: "I would be always willing to discuss it, if anyone was willing to discuss it [with me]. But never, ever anyone was - except Germany's Gamestar, and that was after the biggest shitstorm happened. Stephen Totilo at Kotaku did an interview with me that was quite okay, not very biased, but those were the only two publications that were willing to have any discussion.

"No one came to us and asked me properly. If anyone would seriously ask 'why did you do this?', I would be perfectly willing to answer, and I believe that my answer would be perfectly satisfying to most people, because there were no conspiracy theories behind it."
Full article: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...-is-no-propaganda-in-kingdom-come-deliverance
 
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Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,356
Most of the written pieces I've seen about the game's take on race and gender in its setting were based on direct statements from Vavra, which spelled out the actual rationales. And accurate accounts of the content of the game. Those were rightfully criticized.

Casting a whole range of contentions as just being about Vavra's personal politics (when the issue is about the end-results in the game) amounts to deflection and basically prevarication. "Other people worked on this too" isn't a sound response. His rationales come across super transparent, and even his account of responses is shoddy (again, from what I've seen play out). Saying, as a writer, that you had no power over your work is hogwash, especially when your openly stated rationales are central to why the work is being criticized.
 
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Broken Joystick

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,932
England
"No one came to us and asked me properly. If anyone would seriously ask 'why did you do this?', I would be perfectly willing to answer, and I believe that my answer would be perfectly satisfying to most people, because there were no conspiracy theories behind it."



DbNxI0XX4AACfTN.jpg


:thinking:
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
So... classic nazi deflection? What a shocker.

"No one came to us and asked me properly. If anyone would seriously ask 'why did you do this?', I would be perfectly willing to answer, and I believe that my answer would be perfectly satisfying to most people"

Somehow, I doubt that.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,577
Texas
Haha what a tweet. Vavra remains a lying sack of shit.

I still don't disagree with a very, very limited part of what he said. I didn't see needless, overt racism or malice with kingdome come (at least the parts I've seen on streams), and believe that while the game's setting may have been picked due to Vavra's nationalism and fondness for the good old pre (((globalist))) days, the game remains relatively removed from its creator's abhorrent views. I do believe that the games media attacked the game rather harshly for things that would have been innocuous if not for Vavra's involvement, and therefore conceived of malice where perhaps there was none. Such is their right, and I don't begrudge them any of it. Perhaps KCD can serve as a cautionary tale for devs and small publishers in the future: distance yourself from toxic employees, and certainly don't give them a mouthpiece.
 

Psamtik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,848
At least be honest about who you are and what you believe. You don't get to be racist as shit and then act all offended when people call you a racist.
 

Xer0

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
330
It's worth noting that the media has previously reported on attitudes he has expressed via Twitter, including comparing Apple boss Tim Cook to ISIS and feminist critic Anita Sarkeesian to book-burning Nazis.

"Why won't anyone have a conversation with me?" said known dumbass.
 

Deleted member 39587

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 6, 2018
2,676
Haha what a tweet. Favre Vavra remains a lying sack of shit.

I still don't disagree with a very, very limited part of what he said. I didn't see needless, overt racism or malice with kingdome come (at least the parts I've seen on streams), and believe that while the game's setting may have been picked due to Vavra's nationalism and fondness for the good old pre (((globalist))) days, the game remains relatively removed from its creator's abhorrent views.
I still found a lot of its story to be quite tone deaf. Not ĂĽber-offensive but for example, the wife of the Lord in the first Castle basically making advances on first sight? Just because her husband can't get her pregnant? Cmon.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,577
Texas
I still found a lot of its story to be quite tone deaf. Not ĂĽber-offensive but for example, the wife of the Lord in the first Castle basically making advances on first sight? Just because her husband can't get her pregnant? Cmon.
She just wanted his smooth, white D. That's all women think about, especially back then. Historical accuracyTM

hopefully the sarcasm was super obvious lol
 

Arkage

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
453


Vavra is talking about the controversial aspect of the game, i.e. diversity. Talking about how refugees are painted in an empathetic light isn't the "controversy" Vavra was addressing in the interview. It's likely he's talking about those who wrote politically critical articles about the game and didn't asked him for comment or context about the decision.
 

Charamiwa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,055
Do we even know if it's Vavra that responded to that email personally? It was mid february, during the "shitstorm", so it could just have been the stock company response they decided to go with after a while. Doesn't feel like such a gotcha moment tbh.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,577
Texas
Anyone agrees the game has no propaganda? Anyone that actually played the game?
I wouldn't say "no propaganda," from what I've seen (several hours of streams, some from the opening and middle of the game). Though propaganda is a strong word and my not be appropriate. The game is certainly in several ways the product of its creator's views. The setting in the past, when his country didn't need to be Made Great Again because it was Already Great, the way women line up to get on MC's jock (typical power fantasy stuff though, tbh... only made suspicious due to Vavra's involvement), the evil foreigners disrupting MC's Idyllic White Paradise, etc., etc. Sone of these things, taken individually, are also present in the Witcher, but they're not as suspicious there due to the lack of shitheels on the forefront of the game's development.

Again, propaganda is a strong word. It implies intent to sway a viewpoint, whereas this game is simply set in a time convenient to a certain viewpoint. It's fairly disconnected from Vavra's views on a surface level, and just feels like a medieval RPG for the most part.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,094
"flat structure" is a pretty cool code word for unwritten rules of hierarchy and unaccountable management.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,961
South Carolina
Boy Who Cries Wolf Found Eaten By Wolf

PS: this is another reason why extremist shit-stirrers should be shamed into better behavior or ostracized. They make topics radioactive and to be anywhere near them on those topics taints you.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,577
Texas
considering he has directly endorsed gamergate, liked pizzagate conspiracy tweets, follows every alt-right motherfucker in the planet, likes far-right news articles, i'm not sure what else he's supposed to be tbh
I hate that we've defanged the term Nazi to blanket any old right wing shitter. Words have meaning. Nazi's were pure fucking evil, associated with a totalitarian regime that masterminded the genocide of millions. This dude is just a dirtbag. If Vavra is a Nazi, then we are going to need to make a new, worse word if people as vile as the actual Nazis were pop up.
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,414
i googled "kingdom come deliverance propaganda" and pretty much only saw results from this article.
 

anthraxus

Banned
Nov 16, 2017
644
Cool. Just start working on Hidden & Dangerous 3 already. (or something like that)

I hate that we've defanged the term Nazi to blanket any old right wing shitter. Words have meaning. Nazi's were pure fucking evil, associated with a totalitarian regime that masterminded the genocide of millions. This dude is just a dirtbag. If Vavra is a Nazi, then we are going to need to make a new, worse word if people as vile as the actual Nazis were pop up.

Yea, ppl throw around these terms so loosely that it starts to lose it's actual meaning and they just end up hurting their own cause and making themselves sound foolish/childish in the process.
 
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Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,356
"flat structure" is a pretty cool code word for unwritten rules of hierarchy and unaccountable management.

I wanted to call that out in particular. It's like a project manager (or really any driving force in development) acting like they don't have any sway. If the issue were about actual mangement practices, I'd get what he was saying, but in terms of a writer who covers 90% of the central story not having influence on the writing in his game, or that a work can't have a slant because someone who might be against it exists in the studio is bollocks.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,577
Texas
idk, the alt-right is more than just "right wing shitters", they are at LEAST super okay with Nazis (okay, let's call em Neonazis, doesn't really matter though, they want the same).
Sure, but a gator with shitty opinions is not the same as a literal nazi. Neonazi is better, and alt right is likely most appropriate.
 

PatMan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
978
Member has been banned (3 days): whataboutism. Thread derail. Has been reported and warned for similar behaviour in the past.
People are really going in on this game while ignoring that a lot of games coming out of Japan have propaganda and seemingly rationalize sexualizing minors....
 

Reckheim

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,374
From my 96 hours with the game it didn't seem like it had any of his shitty views in it. He really is doing him self (and other people in the studio) a disservice of even bringing this shit up anymore.
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,356
People are really going in on this game while ignoring that a lot of games coming out of Japan have propaganda and seemingly rationalize sexualizing minors....

This is deflection and what-aboutism. People criticize both, for a variety of reasons. We're talking about the specific statements from a creator of this specific game.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
I hate that we've defanged the term Nazi to blanket any old right wing shitter. Words have meaning. Nazi's were pure fucking evil, associated with a totalitarian regime that masterminded the genocide of millions. This dude is just a dirtbag. If Vavra is a Nazi, then we are going to need to make a new, worse word if people as vile as the actual Nazis were pop up.
Nazis were still nazis before the genocide began. Words have meanings, yes, and the alt-right is the exact kind of people the nazis were before they got in power. Their propaganda, tools and objectives are the same.
 

Tohsaka

Member
Nov 17, 2017
6,793
People are really going in on this game while ignoring that a lot of games coming out of Japan have propaganda and seemingly rationalize sexualizing minors....
Pretty sure no one is ignoring that actually, since there are several games banned from making threads about them on this forum for underage sexualization.
 

CHC

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,246
Haha what a tweet. Vavra remains a lying sack of shit.

I still don't disagree with a very, very limited part of what he said. I didn't see needless, overt racism or malice with kingdome come (at least the parts I've seen on streams), and believe that while the game's setting may have been picked due to Vavra's nationalism and fondness for the good old pre (((globalist))) days, the game remains relatively removed from its creator's abhorrent views. I do believe that the games media attacked the game rather harshly for things that would have been innocuous if not for Vavra's involvement, and therefore conceived of malice where perhaps there was none. Such is their right, and I don't begrudge them any of it. Perhaps KCD can serve as a cautionary tale for devs and small publishers in the future: distance yourself from toxic employees, and certainly don't give them a mouthpiece.

Yeah this a pretty balanced take on the whole thing. I'm glad you didn't use the word "unfair," which I also would have hesitated to include. While Vavra certainly does have an egregiously awful world view, I can't really say that is unfair to take that into account when looking at the game itself. But still, I don't think that at the end of the day the game could rightly be called "propaganda" - it hews far more closely to historical accuracy than most other games have even attempted to, and I don't think the game itself is overtly trying to advocate any particular viewpoint.
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
Anyone agrees the game has no propaganda? Anyone that actually played the game?

I haven't seen anything noteworthy in the 60+ hours I played.

The biggest thing I remember pre-release is everyone complaining that the only PoC in the game were the cumans aka the "barbarians" but all the cuman's I've seen in the game have been white. When I kill them I usually loot most of their gear for money so when I take their helmets I see their faces. They've all been white so far.

There is some things that have been mentioned here like with that lord's wife wanting to sleep with you (a peasant nobody) almost immediately but that's not right wing/alt right/nazi propaganda, that's just typical male power fantasy stuff. That kind of stuff is in every culture and ideology. It's problematic for other reasons but it's not promoting nazi/alt right stuff.