Daniel Vavra: "There is no propaganda" in Kingdom Come: Deliverance

Soundwind

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Why not? There were non-whites in the area at the time, historians mostly agree on that. Historians don't have a consensus as to if there were black people there at the time, but it's theoretically possible. The thing is they hammered down the "historical accuracy" reasoning when there isn't really a historically accurate unanimity.
because its criticism of something that's not in the game, versus something that's in the game

take Red Dead 2 example, as far as we know right now Dutch's gang will mostly be white males (and one native guy)

that's like me saying "well there were also alot of black cowboys around" The response to that is "ok",

the "historical" argument was trash, and this guy is probably trash, but these types of criticisms i never understand

It's like me complaining that there arn't any Christian elements in the new God of War, even though i could argue that the main source of Norse Mythology was Snorri a christian
 

Manfred

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Oct 28, 2017
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Two month after the release the game is still a bug fest. Warhorse seems to use the CryEngine like your uncle makes his fan-clone of Chrono Trigger in RPG Maker with sliders and LUA scripts.
 

Keikaku

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Oct 27, 2017
3,594
Haven't seen any propaganda in the game unless the cumans (turks?) being the bad guys is somehow racist.

The guy is a stupid maga asshole but the game is awesome and shouldn't be shunned because of him.
 

Muffin

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Oct 26, 2017
7,670
it's not even a accurate erm

Nazi's weren't white supremaicsts, in fact the category of "whiteness" was meaningless to them. They were ethnically and spiritually German nationalists. They hated the Slavic people who we would deem white today

now Neo-Nazis today are more of what you would call white supremacists
So all I'm getting from this (and believe me, I knew everything you said already) is that there is no meaningful distinction that tells me I shouldnt be able to call him that. I don't see the moral difference in ideology of only wanting to eliminate non-whites or also whites who look a bit different from you.
 

DaciaJC

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Oct 29, 2017
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Cranston

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get over yourself

Dude literally follows a nazi Irish tweeter, believes nationalist shit and doesn’t even tried to hide his anti semiticism towards Jews. Don’t act so dense and stop trying to make this thread about yourself.
Does he literally follow him?

At what distance?
 

Haze

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Oct 25, 2017
7,465
Atlanta, GA
because its criticism of something that's not in the game, versus something that's in the game

take Red Dead 2 example, as far as we know right now Dutch's gang will mostly be white males (and one native guy)

that's like me saying "well there were also alot of black cowboys around" The response to that is "ok",

the "historical" argument was trash, and this guy is probably trash, but these types of criticisms i never understand

It's like me complaining that there arn't any Christian elements in the new God of War, even though i could argue that the main source of Norse Mythology was Snorri a christian
Why is it unreasonable for people to expect these things in games and then have concerns when they aren't?

The problem is the criticism stemmed from Vavra and his shithead viewpoints. No one would have probably ever made a stink about this game, at least not to the level it's at now, without Vavra. Once you connect the two you start to wonder how those views reflect the creative decisions made for the game and that's where it began.
 

Soundwind

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Why is it unreasonable for people to expect these things in games and then have concerns when they aren't?

The problem is the criticism stemmed from Vavra and his shithead viewpoints. No one would have probably ever made a stink about this game, at least not to the level it's at now, without Vavra. Once you connect the two you start to wonder how those views reflect the creative decisions made for the game and that's where it began.
because its not criticism of the content of the game, but what YOU want the game to be

it's quite simple, really
 

Just_a_Mouse

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Oct 27, 2017
2,008
For me, Vavra's own extreme right wing hate propaganda will always be inexorably linked to the game due his involvement, which is why I will never play it.
 
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Haze

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Oct 25, 2017
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Atlanta, GA
because its not criticism of the content of the game, but what YOU want the game to be

it's quite simple, really
Did you not read the last part? The first part isn't the issue particularly with the game, I was just speaking in general with situations like this.

Vavra is an alt-right nazi boi. People look at his historically accurate game and notice it's populated by nearly 100% white people. People question motives behidn this creative decision because of Vavra's views. Vavra and WHS double down on "historical accuracy" defense. It's a bad.
 

Enduin

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Oct 25, 2017
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I don't remember much about this whole thing, was the game originally criticized because there were only white people in it?
No, basically what happened was a kickstarter backer posted a very benign and innocent question about whether there would be PoC, I think specifically Africans, in the game and Warhorse gave a pretty standard response with some weak reasoning as to why certain people would or could not be in the game. A blog focused on showing PoC in medieval art pushed back on their reasoning and claims about how there weren't any black people in Bohemia at the time, lots of people on the internet got really angry over this and Vavra as well shot back with some stupid remarks and claims about accuracy and all their historian consultants, similar to comments he made a year or two earlier when people were bringing up the lack of PoC in TW3, where he made some pretty outlandish comments and had a few fights on twitter with some journalists over the issue.

So once this all started people started looking into Vavra's social media history and affiliations and realized he's alt-right as fuck, supported Gamergate and just an all around prick. And it just went back and forth from there with the game kind of in the middle. You had Vavra supporters and more so KCD supporters touting "Historical Accuracy" like some kind of be all end all cudgel over and over again like the inclusion of PoC would destroy this pristine and finely crafted authenticity Warhorse was creating and then you had people who called bullshit on that because it's a terrible line of reasoning and far from being historically accurate and were side eyeing everything about the game because of what kind of person Vavra is.
 

Soundwind

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so can we expect criticism of Red Dead 2 for Dutch's gang being mostly white men then?

now that i read more about Vavra's actions, criticism seems justified dude is trash..... but the reason i bring up Red Dead on here or God of War is that there seems to be a selective criticism of the abundance of whiteness in games.
 

Haze

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Oct 25, 2017
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Atlanta, GA
so can we expect criticism of Red Dead 2 for Dutch's gang being mostly white men then?

now that i read more about Vavra's actions, criticism seems justified dude is trash..... but the reason i bring up Red Dead on here or God of War is that there seems to be a selective criticism of the abundance of whiteness in games.
For RDR? It's possible, at the very least they won't be connected to already solidified racist views so maybe people won't go looking.
 

Soundwind

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For RDR? It's possible, at the very least they won't be connected to already solidified racist views so maybe people won't go looking.
Rockstar will probably

A. not care what people think
B. ignore whatever criticism or laugh

they won't say the stuff Vavra said they probably wouldn't acknowledge it

Rockstar does what Rockstar wants, and that would probably be the best response
 

rras1994

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Nov 4, 2017
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so can we expect criticism of Red Dead 2 for Dutch's gang being mostly white men then?

now that i read more about Vavra's actions, criticism seems justified dude is trash..... but the reason i bring up Red Dead on here or God of War is that there seems to be a selective criticism of the abundance of whiteness in games.
Alot of it came up as Kingdom King Deliverance marketed itself as historically accurate and then the dev came out and said that there was no PoC in Bohemia at the time. Red Ded and God of War have never marketed themselves as historically accurate - though of course there could be better portrayal of all minorities in the AAA space or games in general.
 

Soundwind

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Alot of it came up as Kingdom King Deliverance marketed itself as historically accurate and then the dev came out and said that there was no PoC in Bohemia at the time. Red Ded and God of War have never marketed themselves as historically accurate - though of course there could be better portrayal of all minorities in the AAA space or games in general.
i see so its more the way they marketed Kingdom Come.....I see

look i don't want you guys think im trying to start anything in here or defending him, just trying to find out what the cause of all of this is
 

BernardoOne

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Oct 25, 2017
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bttw if you want more proof of Vavra being a pathological liar and personal victim:
"They even went to Twitter and looked at things I liked," he said. "It's not what you say, but even stuff you like. So I liked something by Eric Trump, it was non-political stuff but I liked something and Trump is a terrible person so I am a terrible person as well. It was absolutely ridiculous."
First things first he has never liked any Eric Trump tweets so i'm assuming the dumbass meant Jr instead
N O N P O L I T I C A L

Also further pathetic and disengenious of him to say those are the ones people have issue either, completely , miracously, forgetting to mention the shitload of likes on far-right groups, alt-right personalities with political tweets, and shitbird alt-right conspiracy theories like pizzagate. But i guess that wouldn't sound too good in a interview.
 

Nere

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Dec 8, 2017
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bttw if you want more proof of Vavra being a pathological liar and personal victim:

First things first he has never liked any Eric Trump tweets so i'm assuming the dumbass meant Jr instead
N O N P O L I T I C A L

Also further pathetic and disengenious of him to say those are the ones people have issue either, completely , miracously, forgetting to mention the shitload of likes on far-right groups, alt-right personalities with political tweets, and shitbird alt-right conspiracy theories like pizzagate. But i guess that wouldn't sound too good in a interview.
Did he really misspell too early on that tweet....?
 

GigiF

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Dec 11, 2017
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One thing I will say is, if he calls someone a nazi by virtue of comparison without them actually bring a nazi, then I'd say he has to accept people calling him one.
 

Fliesen

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Oct 25, 2017
5,907
Did anyone accuse Vavra of using his game to "push" some of his shitty views? Where does the 'propaganda' angle come from?
I think i can agree with there probably being no "propaganda" in KCD.

Is this some kind of 'not a pornstar!' defense?

Lol @ that ISIS / Tim Cook tweet - i didn't even know that one yet.

Vavra seems like a huge douche, and i'm glad the genre he's involved in is very deep in "not my kind of stuff anyways" territory.
 

Dorfdad

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Oct 27, 2017
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While I can’t say I have all the facts one disturbing statement I the article was that it seems they are trying to say that opposing social justice warriors or women is considered hate? I know a lot of it depends on context but opposing views do not equal hate in my eyes. While this may be the case in this instance you can’t make a statement like that and be taken seriously.
 

BernardoOne

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Oct 25, 2017
10,287
Did anyone accuse Vavra of using his game to "push" some of his shitty views? Where does the 'propaganda' angle come from?
I think i can agree with there probably being no "propaganda" in KCD.

Lol @ that ISIS / Tim Cook tweet - i didn't even know that one yet.
Not really, it's his usual "journalists are so biased against me huaaaaaaaaa" crybaby shit.
 

Raven117

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It’s a shame about all this. The game is really good.
It has some great ideas, stumbles a little on execution, and it always feels like the game is about to crash on you, but I can't wait to see what they come up with for a sequel.

As for guys misguided tweets and such, honestly, I don't care. If I knew he was using this money to fund some crazy weird alt-right rally nonsense, I might not support the game, but there is zero evidence of that. He has a studio with lots of folks working on it.

If anything, the story with its view on refugees is actually handled pretty well. It really isn't some altright propaganda anything.

The games media needs to be honest...They didn't like his politics and decided they wanted to make the game political to make a point when the game itself really isn't all that political.
 

Valkyr1983

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Oct 27, 2017
1,523
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So much controversy over this game

Glad it didn’t add up to anything though, last I heard Kingdom Come has done well sales wise

Looking forward to their next game, KCD was great
 

iksenpets

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Oct 26, 2017
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Even if you exclude all of his weird historical commentary about race and all that, isn’t the actual narrative of the game all about noble Czechs under the oppression of evil barbarian foreigners? Like, any historical narrative is going to political in some way, but it sounds like his have a really active slant to it, even without his gross racial politics.
 

Raven117

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Even if you exclude all of his weird historical commentary about race and all that, isn’t the actual narrative of the game all about noble Czechs under the oppression of evil barbarian foreigners? Like, any historical narrative is going to political in some way, but it sounds like his have a really active slant to it, even without his gross racial politics.
No, its about the half brother of the king of the Czechs (Signmund from Hungary), kidnapping and using the Cumans and other folks from hungary as his army. Thats really just the back drop to give you some "baddies" to fight. The thrust of the story is to get your father's sword back who was murdered in a raid.
 

JORMBO

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Oct 25, 2017
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So much controversy over this game

Glad it didn’t add up to anything though, last I heard Kingdom Come has done well sales wise

Looking forward to their next game, KCD was great
I wouldn’t have heard of or played the game without the controversy, so it might have played to their benefit. I’m also looking forward to their next game now.
 

closer

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Oct 25, 2017
2,426
Anything that purports to portray history is involved in propaganda. But i guess thats kinda pedantic
 

DoomGaze

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Nov 16, 2017
141
I love the game. If it hadn't been for all the craziness surrounding it I probably wouldn't have even known about it.

I had a similar kind of situation with Prey. No controversy but it was actually Digital Foundry's GOTY video that got me interested. Otherwise I wouldn't have even glanced at it because it looked like just a generic FPS.

I agree that the controversy ultimately helped sales. I heard it did very well.
 

Gestault

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Oct 26, 2017
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Anything that purports to portray history is involved in propaganda. But i guess thats kinda pedantic
This equates any use or presentation of history as equally flawed/malignant. It's not pedantic so much as it's obfuscating, to the benefit of propaganda. Your words have an obviously nefarious structure.
 

closer

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yeah i didnt mean to apply negative connotations neccesarily (tho it's there!), just that history is narrative. But im generalizing for sure, feel free to disregard lol
 

Deleted member 10060

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Fascists ran my country until the 70s and murdered countless people. Including yes, people in my family. I'm pretty fucking familiar with what nazis/fascists are, and that's the exact reason i'm not a dumbass and can see that alt-right fuckers are made of the exact same essence and have the same fucking goals. Their ideology inevitably leads to what the Nazi ideology lead. Nazis were motherfucking nazis before they started the genocide.

What's offensive is trying to downplay what nazis motherfucking are, their ideology and how they did the shit they do, by implying they only magically became nazis one day when they started mass murder. The only fucking this the idiocy you profess is ignoring the fuckers until they reach the same endgame.
I get what you're saying, but the amount of (mother)fucking in your post is at such an absurd level that it makes it hard to take you very seriously. Not calling everyone you don't like and their mum a nazi, is not the same as downplaying nazis.

It's not about tolerating shit, it's about the danger in watering out something vile to the point where it means nothing anymore.
 

BernardoOne

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Oct 25, 2017
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I get what you're saying, but the amount of (mother)fucking in your post is at such an absurd level that it makes it hard to take you very seriously. Not calling everyone you don't like and their mum a nazi, is not the same as downplaying nazis.

It's not about tolerating shit, it's about the danger in watering out something vile to the point where it means nothing anymore.
There's no watering down though. The alt-right ideology is extremely transparent. They're cut from the same cloth.
 

Paul

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Oct 27, 2017
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Yep, a nazi. Keep laughing and stay gullible if you prefer. He's a white supremacist nationalist; if that's not a nazi I don't know what is.

Hey, if you prefer I call him a neonazi instead, that's fine with me. I just don't really think the distinction between a nazi and a neonazi is uh... particularly important?
He is neither. And holy shit some people on this forum.
 

Erik Twice

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Nov 2, 2017
685
Do we even know if it's Vavra that responded to that email personally?
If you look at the screenshot, you can see that the person who was contacted was Tobias Stolz-Zwilling. I don't know why McKeand used a transparent brush to cover up the name and address.

It was mid february, during the "shitstorm", so it could just have been the stock company response they decided to go with after a while. Doesn't feel like such a gotcha moment tbh.
I don't think it's a "gotcha", either. Vavra is referring to articles about him or his comments that were published without the publications reaching him for comments. Many of these articles were written before the game was released and it's true they did not ask him for comment or specify he was asked for it. I do not think Vavra had McKeand in mind.

I mean, Kotaku tried to refute the "historical accurancy" claims by quoting an antisemtic, kind of black supremacist blog most known for claiming Beethoven was actually black and that the Egyptians discovered Americans amongst other nonsense. A black supremacist blog written by someone who isn't even black, at that.

Personally, I do not care about Vavra, but I do care about game journalism and I think the English-speaking critical establishment conducted itself poorly. I do not think it followed ethical standards to the level it should have, its criticism was heavily americacentric, opportunistic and salacious and I think it harmed any worthwhile conversation.

look i don't want you guys think im trying to start anything in here or defending him, just trying to find out what the cause of all of this is
Basically, the guy is a Gamergater and obsessed with American far-right politics and the whole conversation is born out of that. There's not much more to it.
 

Jamesways

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Oct 28, 2017
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It has some great ideas, stumbles a little on execution, and it always feels like the game is about to crash on you, but I can't wait to see what they come up with for a sequel.

As for guys misguided tweets and such, honestly, I don't care. If I knew he was using this money to fund some crazy weird alt-right rally nonsense, I might not support the game, but there is zero evidence of that. He has a studio with lots of folks working on it.

If anything, the story with its view on refugees is actually handled pretty well. It really isn't some altright propaganda anything.

The games media needs to be honest...They didn't like his politics and decided they wanted to make the game political to make a point when the game itself really isn't all that political.
I'm in exactly the same boat, I loved the game. I found absolutely no propaganda or his alt right beliefs expressed in it whatsoever. If anything the game made me want to study that period in history, I found the repercussions of royal family feud's and the politics of the local Lords fascinating. And it was very engaging to be involved and see the effects it had on the common folk through the countryside. I really enjoyed the story.


Basically, the guy is a Gamergater and obsessed with American far-right politics and the whole conversation is born out of that. There's not much more to it.
Bingo. And as much as I may adamantly disagree with that stance and those politics, I can still separate my beliefs and play and enjoy the game that the team made.
 

Deleted member 41271

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I wouldn't call the game "propaganda".

It is just hilariously telling what the creator feels is realistic. What, a generic peasant randomly going through lots of places, shagging all the women, INCLUDING THE NOBILITY(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)? REALISTIC!
But god forbid someone has a slightly darker skintone.

That's really the thing people poke here. The game is actually extremely heavy on the wish fulfilment, the ease which the protagnist gets to sleep with random women is almost comical. If you wanted to make a satire of the "my views are totes realistic" types, this is what you'd add to a game. And these jokers actually did it genuinely, in a game meant seriously. It's amazing.

The games media needs to be honest...They didn't like his politics and decided they wanted to make the game political to make a point when the game itself really isn't all that political.
The media was actually quite honest. The game is as I found it described in the eeeeeeeevil games media:
Decent-ish game with poor writing in parts, and hilariously stupid dude wish fulfillment bits that tried to pose as ~historically realistic~ without being it.

That's it. As a game, it's fine. Not as good as Divinity 2: Ego Draconis or games like it, nowhere near actually good RPGs, but slightly less cringy than, say, the god of war games and overall decent enough.


Had the creator not gone all scorched earth on criticism, and just shrugged at it, the game would have been treated like all the other generic dude wish fulfillment RPGs we have around, there's plenty of those that are pretty much white character only too. It only blew up because the company itself made it blow up by being needlessly aggressive.

You know who the guy reminds me of? Not really other ALt-righters (which he is, he's deffo a Nazi) but Phil Phish - another very abrasive dev whose needlessly abrasive actions got him spotlight and controversy.
 
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Raven117

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I'm in exactly the same boat, I loved the game. I found absolutely no propaganda or his alt right beliefs expressed in it whatsoever. If anything the game made me want to study that period in history, I found the repercussions of royal family feud's and the politics of the local Lords fascinating. And it was very engaging to be involved and see the effects it had on the common folk through the countryside. I really enjoyed the story.
I was even looking for some of that propaganda, and didn't find it. The writing is actually pretty decent for its first time out. As you stated, it really is more of a story about how all effected the common folks.

Bingo. And as much as I may adamantly disagree with that stance and those politics, I can still separate my beliefs and play and enjoy the game that the team made.
Yup. It really is as simple as that.

But hey, people can not like games as much as they want. The game sold well, we will get a sequel, and the world will go on.