Thoughtful stuff Elodes. Very interesting reading.
I snipe at Dark Souls from time to time, but there's no doubt that it is a deliberate, deeply structured experience. There's always been a lot going on with it's systems. I remember another good piece, years ago on some other site, where someone put forward their opinion that hollowing in the game could represent the real world slide into dementia, in old age. That struck me. I was playing the game at the time, and it seemed to make sense.
Anyway, very good post. I'm definitely looking up Rain World now.
I think the ending works fantastically well within the idea of depression, too. After a while of feeling up, I start to sink back into old patterns: aloofness, inattentiveness, demotivation, and general apathy. Sort of like the undead plague. When it takes hold, and if things come to a head with it, I'm presented with a choice: allow the present condition to continue, or kick my own ass into gear, knowing that even as I do great for a while there's most likely going to be a point where I slip back. Great post by OP.
Excellent OP, gave me a lot to think about viz. my own circumstances (I have depressive tendencies but do not "suffer from depression" I don't think) and made me excited to play through the game for the first time when the remaster drops.
If there isn't a ResetERA Hall of Fame then this thread makes the case for one.
My experience with DS seems to be totally opposite to yours OP:
When I played Dark Souls for the first time I was in the middle of some kind of depression: I was away from my home country, failling at doing what I was supposed to do, I was struggling to even communicate with my peers since our cultures were so different. There were times when I literally got out of bed just to go and see a therapist that could help me and obviously I was failling at trying to get a job there.
Gaming was one of the few things that weren't "betraying" me so I eventually picked up Dark Souls because it looked so impressive and because I knew some people who enjoyed Demon's and I trusted their opinions when it comes to games.
I loved the world, loved the enemy designs, the clever connections between the different areas, payed special attention to the almost unexistent story and sunk myself into the wikis trying to unravel the mystery of how everything worked. But the more I progressed through the story the more I started to feel the game was affecting my mental health: I was trying to save myself from hollowing but in order to do so I had to prey on others, I was clearly being manipulated my someone else and I had to play along because there was no clear answer anywhere and that uncertainty was almost a replica of how I perceived my own life. I couldn't beat Dark Souls in that state; I came back to my country and sent my stuff in advance, had a bussy last month there trying to solve all my unfinished businesses and then came back. A week after I came back I started a job and that alone helped me to heal my wounds. I picked Dark Souls about a month later, summoned a person and went to beat Lord Gwyn because I wanted to finally leave that damned game behind. In the end I had to face a difficult decision: fuck the world up or fuck the world up. Everything was a cruel joke.
Don't get me wrong: I love the game as a game but since I played it during a harsh period of my life it's the Souls game I have played less because I don't feel like coming back to it, and I've tried to. The idea that you can overcome anything is something I don't feel with DS. It's not the kind of game I'd go to elevate my spirits. I played through all of the series thinking that perhaps I would find a way to let DS's world move on.
I really enjoyed reading the OP. But I also think that constantly subjecting yourself to punishing gameplay is rough on the mind.
I'm wrapping up Dark Souls 3 right now. First Souls game aside from Bloodborne. It's one of the best games I've ever played. The set pieces are astounding. Just dont find the story as interesting as Bloodborne.
Absolutely remarkable post, OP. This is the reason I love Era and is a nice change of pace.
I remember very clearly the first time playing this. I wasn't depressed by any means, but found a sense of dread and imminent danger at all times. It's such a precarious game but you find comfort in the messages and the online presence this game provides. I spent a ton of time in forums conversing with other and finding a sense of community like none other.
Very cool take. I've always seen Dark Souls (especially 2) as a meta acknowledgement to how videogames work. You start the game, you will die over and over, you will learn from your mistakes and the community just like with playground chatter back in the day, and you will have that nagging feeling pulling you back like a sickness until you finish it. The game even acknowledges that millions are suffering the same fate at the same time in their own version of the world. When you do finally finish, your options are to start over again or break the cycle and put the game down forever. Dark Souls is infinitely more confusing than say Super Mario Bros but that process I just laid out somehow describes people's interaction with both games. Your deeper take certainly does work though.
What a wonderful OP. I agree wholeheartedly. Dark Souls is bleak, oppressive, and unforgiving. And it is also the single most inspirational game that I have ever played. Dark Souls means so much to me because, in a way, it helped me come to terms with my struggle with anxiety and depression. It is a precious game to me for that reason. Dark Souls truly changed me.
Yup. As someone with lifelong depression, and a real love for the Dark Souls series, I feel the exact same way. This post is on point. Thanks for starting the thread.
I put my dog to sleep yesterday, and obviously I'm really sad and upset, so I plan to dive back into the remaster this weekend. Dark Souls 1 is one of my top 3 games of all time. Hopefully it'll take my mind off what I'm feeling.
What a fantastic thread, OP. I suffer from depression myself and still find it hard to open myself up. But games like Celeste have been surprisingly helpful for me being able to contextualize what I feel.
Excellent post OP. I will echoe what many others have said already here, this is one of the best threads I have ever seen on a gaming forum or any internet forum for that matter. Probably one of the most interesting and insightful read in general about videogame aswell. Thank you so much for taking your time and sharing your thoughts and experiences.
I get...some of this. Whereas I've had some games that were there for me during low stretches, it wasn't DaS1, but I definately get the motivational "sink or swim" and absorbing narrative the game has paralleled what certainly gets me motivated.
Amazing post OP. I agree with almost everything you posted. I played DS1 for the first time after my first year of College. My first year was a disaster. I missed classes, constantly showed up late to football practice(I would have never in a million years done this in HS, I loved football and sports in general), and it wasnt for being lazy. I just hated myself, presenting myself to people and found it all so incredibly tiring. I literally spent most of my days laying in bed playing Skyrim.
After withdrawing and coming back home I found myself in the same sort of funk. All of my friends were off at college so I was essentially alone, with no job and a couple of community college classes to attend during the week. A lot of free time to sit around pondering life, my own failings, the whole shebang. I played a lot of stuff during that time but nothing ever hooked me until I decided to give Dark Souls a try. And damn did it hook me. Every aspect of the game drew me in, the frustrations, the triumph, the art, and the story. I was enamored with it. The game quite literally helped to lift me out of the self-defeating thoughts and behaviors I had(at least partly). And I think much of it has to do with what you wrote here. It was an odd feeling to hold such excitement for something so intimidating and unforgiving. A thought I would never have entertained the year prior.
A couple of months later I had found a job, was taking more classes, and eventually transferred and graduated. I hesitate to say that Dark Souls helped me accomplish all that, but it was definitely a jumping off point to help me get out of my own head.
I think its a testament to the game and its creators that it can help some who play internalize the ideas that, yes the world is unforgiving, yes you will run into obstacles along the way, and yes you will fail, but that's okay because your struggle is shared, any obstacle can be overcome, and you will also succeed. And they're able to do this almost entirely through implicit game design.
Yup. As someone with lifelong depression, and a real love for the Dark Souls series, I feel the exact same way. This post is on point. Thanks for starting the thread.
I put my dog to sleep yesterday, and obviously I'm really sad and upset, so I plan to dive back into the remaster this weekend. Dark Souls 1 is one of my top 3 games of all time. Hopefully it'll take my mind off what I'm feeling.
dive into the remaster, i am sure it will make a positive effect! Dark Souls helped me too through a dark time a few years ago, i wrote about this yesterday here in my Demon´s Souls LTTP. There is nothing like the Souls games that really have some sort of transformative power, especially if someone is looking for a game that keeps his mind away from other thoughts. Bleak and gloomy as the games are... sometimes it is exactly the thing that help through tough times! keep ya head up and stay positive!
Wow, very interesting OP. I can't imagine how much time went into this.
I'd have to agree with a lot of what you wrote. The game is unabashedly oppressive, yet the remaining theme is one of hope. Hope that eventually you'll make it to the next stage, even if that moment of triumph is short/fleeting.
I've had time in DS where I felt so good beating a boss/section that I nearly drove myself mad trying to beat, only to be have my jubilant Glee struck down by the next obstacle. Thus the cycle repeated.
Dark souls is truly a masterpiece that not only manages to play well, but also to elicit raw emotional feedback from the player.
It's bizarre. For a game that constantly beats you over the head, something about it compels you to not want to give up hope. The theme is interwoven in every fiber of the game. Shit, man.
Well that's exactly what humanity is. You have good people and shitty people populating the world. And guess what? They're both playing dark souls. It's not even really a parallel to real life anymore cause most of those people will in turn, most likely either help you out or fuck you over whether you're in-game or in real life.
So the debate remains the same: is the humanity really worth it?
As someone who suffers from major depression and only recently started taking medication for it, I can't say I totally agree with everything you said, but I'm glad you--and many others--have found the series to be of some comfort. I certainly never gained much from the game in terms of therapy; I just played it, enjoyed it a lot, and didn't really juxtapose it with depression and my own major depression. It was basically just another game/series I enjoyed and didn't gleam much else from it.
Other games have done that for me, just not Dark Souls. Not saying you're wrong at all, of course. Different games mean different things to different people, and timing is crucial. When I was finally diagnosed last year, the doctor assessed correctly that I'd been depressed since I was around 11 or 12, which was extremely accurate. That was when my life started going downhill.
From the age of 11/12 until 27, I basically existed, not lived.
Depression sucks. It's robbed me of so much, but now that I'm on medication, I feel like a brand new person. I can actually get out of bed; I can actually feel the desire to want to do things; I can actually look at myself and see a future that eluded me for years. It's almost magical how much I've changed in just a few months, but I won't get into that here.
That said, I'm extremely lucky to have such an amazing family. My parents and siblings are all very understanding and have always helped me. I've definitely always been the black sheep in the family, but I--and to some extent, them--never really brought up the possibility that I might be depressed, even though it was very obvious. Indeed, it feels like a sort of taboo, but once you go past the fog wall (to stay thematic), you can actually start doing something about it and get a rhythm going.
Depression was the giant elephant in the room no one acknowledged, but I certainly saw it. I'm also extremely thankful to the doctor that diagnosed me. I went in for stomach problems, and he started getting extremely suspicious with some of my replies, and he started diagnosing me right there and then. And like I said, I'm one of the lucky ones to have such amazing parents; otherwise I couldn't afford my medication.
Anyway, I feel like I'm ranting, but good OP, OP. Video games are a great way to cope sometimes, regardless of which one it is. You can always find something that will resonate with you and affect you on such a profound level. Unfortunately, like I said, Dark Souls was not that for me. Happy for you and everyone else nonetheless, though!
You're told that parrying is an option, but not taught how to do it, nor how important it is to learn.
You're not told what it means to be hollow.
You're not told how humanity works, or how it's linked to the online experience and to the strength of various weapons.
You're barely told how upgrading works.
You're barely told how stats work, or which ones you should upgrade. (Resistance, anyone?)
You're barely told how weapon scaling works.
You're barely told how covenants work.
You're not told how i-frames work.
You're not told that you can't hit the ghosts in New Londo Ruins with your weapons. You're not told how to solve this.
You're not told that basilisks can curse you. (Incidentally, you are told directly how to solve this when you get cursed, which is the only time the game breaks character like this.)
You're not told that you can kill friendly NPC's. You're not told that they will stay dead. You're not told that you may appease them, nor how.
You're not told that you can return to the Undead Asylum. The method through which you do this, practically requires that you know what it is for.
You're not told how to access the DLC, which is a ridiculously convoluted process.
You're not told that ~between a third and a half of the game's areas and bosses are entirely optional, to the point of being downright hidden.
All of this emphasizes two things: Firstly, it's clear that the game does not find you important enough to explain these basic concepts to. It feels as though the game doesn't deign to help you. A sense of insignificance is thus fostered. [Thought 1] Secondly -- and this is a point I will return to often: You cannot understand Dark Souls on your own. It is not meant to be played alone. In many ways the player is encouraged, throughout the game, to connect with other people.
The first time players will do this is when they have questions about the game's mechanics; this is likely to happen within, say, the first four hours. In this sense the game provides a kind of 'training' for later internet scouring: You will find the places where the game's mechanics gathered and summarized, but you will merely read the info. You will become aware of the community, but you are not yet asked to participate. Nonetheless, you are primed to accept that you will need external guidance to deal with your problems. [Thought 5]
This last point symbolizes something quite stunning: Dark Souls knows that it does not exist in a vacuum. What would typically be bad game design -- namely, the fact that the game is very hard to figure out on your own -- is repurposed here as a tool to encourage initial player communication. I'm reminded of Miyamoto's decision, in the first Zelda game, to hide Link's sword [Link] , so as to encourage gamers to help each other. It is no coincidence that Dark Souls, a game so often seen as a modern, mature reinterpretation of Zelda, took this facet into consideration as well.
As a matter of fact, its online systems give Dark Souls a very special relation to the internet. Let's look at these in more detail.
There is something I'd like to add here however. That almost runs counter to your point but I think exists alongside it. Maybe I misunderstood but as someone who was greatly helped by this game I feel like this was the part you left out one of the most important things of all.
Empowerment
For me, the most impactful result of the obtuseness of the mechanics was the empowerment I received from overcoming them, similarly to the bosses. In other words. The game does not care about me. Unlike other games, where my victory was assured from the very beginning. The world of dark souls almost acts as if I never existed. It doesn't care about me. This reflects how depression has often made me feel about the world. Nothing cares about me. I don't matter. Some people have told me I matter, but the world itself clearly repudiates that notion.
This means, then, that when I do figure something out in Dark Souls, it was by my doing. I did it. Me. By myself. This directly addresses point #3, but also an extension of that, which I would phrase as "Others can do things, but I don't, so I should feel ashamed of myself", and then when I receive help "See, I needed help to do things. I'm a child. A baby. I can't do anything on my own. Everything must be handed to me. I suck." And yet despite that feeling and acknowledging it, I know that if dark souls had an Easy mode, I would have picked it. Why stress about a hard pointless difficulty? However, Dark Souls didn't allow me to select an easy mode. It didn't give me the answers. Everything was raw. Untamed. Uncaring for me. A reflection of how the real world feels.
Once I was able to work out things like humanity, and once I beat the Taurus Demon, and all those things, I started to feel something I didn't ever remember feeling. I felt empowered. I felt empowered because I did those things. Me. No one else. I got good. I did it. I wasn't funneled into a boss fight I was pretty much guaranteed to win. The game wouldn't play nice with me. It stood there in my way, and I knocked it down. I did it. Me. No help. No nothing.
And then, funny enough, with this new found empowerment, and more and more as it grew over the course of the game, I began to become more secure in my own not just abilities, but in my lack of abilities, because I realized two things. 1. I could do anything if I set my mind to it eventually (you always hear this, but I had been given the opportunity to internalize it), and 2. It doesn't matter if I can't. I can give and receive help, and there's no shame in that. As I gave help, and as Dark Souls forced me to accept help sometimes, I became comfortable with both, but never felt inadequate. I didn't feel bad that I couldn't do something. I saw help from phantoms not as someone carrying me, but as someone helping me over that ledge only for now. I knew that eventually I would be able to whoop that ledge's ass. So who cares if I need help now? If that's what enables me to do it later, then good! I know if I participate, I will learn.
And then the community you've talked about above. You realize that everyone is right where you are, struggling as you are - some ahead of you, some behind. It's no shame to accept help now. You will do it yourself eventually. Time is a thing.
Now, when I go and fight Midir solo in DS3, it's not out of pride. It's not out of insecurity. It's not out of a fear that I must maintain the fact that I don't suck. No. It's because I can, and because it's fun. And I love it.
It's such a freeing feeling. It's such a true feeling of empowerment. It's so different from "empowerment" coming from people saying nice things. It's empowerment from somewhere else, somewhere inside me. Dark Souls didn't give me the ability to fight and win; it merely showed me that I could and that victory was its own reward. It helped me internalize that by doing it, in a way no book or lecture or movie could ever do. It has changed me as a person, and I am so grateful for that.
I just wanted to say that I never understood this. I was able to get the game's general story pretty well to begin with. I think people rely too much on cutscenes to tell the story. To me, the beginning events are explained, and then what happens in the game is the story. I understood pretty well all that had happened when I finished the game, and I didn't really read item descriptions a ton. Maybe a few essential ones.
I honestly think a lot of things said about Dark Souls go way overboard. But hey they are fun games, and they do insist you keep trying, but I don't find them much different than any other great game.
This is an absolutely excellent take on the game, well done. I've always found the communal aspects of the series to be an allegory in a sense for never being alone in life and always having some sort of support system. The contrast between that and the heavily bleak universe has always been known to me but great catch in terms of the vague descriptions of mechanics and gameplay systems.
Journey is another game that I believe conveys a similar message but in a much different visual approach (the world is hauntingly beautiful yet empty, as opposed to being haunting and bleak). The mystery in the world and the lack of explanations regarding the game's features plus, most importantly, the anonymous co-op feature, are all aspects that compare to Dark Souls as a metaphor for depression.
Seeing someone else reaching this conclusion and putting so much effort, passion and care into translating this kind of abstract feelings into words, warms my heart and makes me hopeful for this media.
Thank you all so much for the warm words!
After spending so much time writing the OP, I haven't been able to spare the time to respond, and I likely won't for a while still. But I'm reading every post, and I look forward to talking about your stories, experiences, and interpretations. I'm overjoyed to see my words resonate with so many here. It means a lot to me.
I really feel people who think the community is bad haven't actually gotten into the community. The get gud posts I only typically see outside of the "Souls" community from gamers on message boards like here or gamefaqs etc. It is honestly one of the best communities I have ever experienced in gaming. Even the OP twinking invades of old were made tolerable with all the goofy cosplay and funny emote usage. But on actual Youtube channels like EpicNameBro, PraiseTheSun, VaatiVidya, etc. It is always a supportive and fun group to be around. And what other game had so many people cosplaying as an ingame character just to help others through the game for hours and hours. There are tons of players online that are simply playing to help others survive invades or make it past bosses.
I have never seen another game with a community like that.
if you fail other will fail or pass regardless , if you succeded and let the fire dies, other will reignite the fire regardless. If you reignite the fire you condem humanity to another cycle of anguish and despair when the fire starts to fade.
Later on the leaders of several kingdoms starts to tricke ,hire and or kill other undead in the name of fame to sacrifice themselves to keep their kingdoms alive and later named them as unnamed saints who willing sacrificed themselves to save humanity.
And if by an unknown reason the fire fades,humanity will rule in the dark yet there are tiny flames that will reignite the flame after humans vanish.
Of course, but this one strikes me as odd. Most people all seem to agree that online communities are just toxic. Dark Souls I just don't see it. The actual community mind you, not people posting on message boards. I'm talking as you play the game and learn the game together. Games like CoD or Battlefield or League of Legends, etc are not anywhere near even a "community" in the same sense as Souls games.
And honestly OP did a far better job explaining as to why that community is much tighter and more supportive of each other than I ever could. I'm sure there are other amazing online communities out there, but none of them do I hear constantly about how awful they are from other people. I truly believe it's because people take what they see on outside forum posters (for lack of a better term.. casual fans or the like) and assume they represent the community as a whole. And due to Souls gaining a decent amount of popularity this perception simply grew.
One of the main reasons I fell in love with this series was due to how the community grew together and explored together. From the gameplay mechanics, to figuring out the story, right down to wearing equipment that made you weaker just so you could defend a stranger from invasions. It was really fascinating to me.
I do admit I am more "part" of the Souls community than maybe any other online community for a game, but this one has struck me as far different from all the others I have partaken in for short times.
The original Dark Souls helped me through a rough time in my life. If I were in the shoes of someone that was unfamiliar with the game, it would seem like the absolute worst game to play when you are struggling; punishing difficulty, obtuse mechanics, deeply dark world and lore, un-relaxing and almost stressful exploration at times, and did I mention how difficult it is? But it completely makes as much sense as it doesn't when you find out that the game is probably one of the best for coping with life troubles by playing it. If you get immersed in it, it has the miraculous ability to completely absorb you and take your mind off of your struggles while you play it. I love the franchise for that reason, and will always cherish and thank From Software for them. They mean a lot to me.
Thanks for the writeup. I tend to just think that it's a fun, challenging and super rewarding game... but admittedly my thoughts into gaming don't go much deeper than that and I rely on youtubers and this type of analysis to flesh out my understanding and appreciation of games. This is valuable to those wanting to better understand mental health issues because it's done through the lens of the best pastime. It could also raise awareness about this global issue in some here who don't take an interest. Thanks again, it was well put together and 100% worth reading.
Absolutely excellent write-up, OP. I'm echoing a lot of others but this is honestly very well thought out and concise, it was a wonderful read.
On a personal note, I do see a lot of similar connections you are making to the game here with my own struggle through depression. You are right that everyone seems to have their own different battle with depression, finding out what helps them, what doesn't help, etc. but I think sharing these, and knowing you are not alone, are incredibly important as you pointed out. A lot of what you discussed and pointed out are why I enjoy Dark Souls so much, especially when it came to discovering the story both through your own adventure and through the help of the outlying community.
I have to ask, have you played Bloodborne? I'm really interested to see if you feel these points here carry over to Bloodborne or if the two don't align as much.
This is a great OP, and I'll read it when I've beaten the remaster. As someone who has also struggled with depression and anxiety my whole life, I would also recommend Celeste. It has a similarly challenging yet motivating gameplay loop and a more overt narrative that's driven by mental health problems.
Will also second the recommendation of Celeste. Wonderful platformer in its' own right and it does touch on Anxiety/Depression a bit more on-the-nose than OP's breakdown of Dark Souls but it nonetheless deserves a playthrough if you enjoy platformers.
It pretty much encapsulates my own unique feeling with the Soulsborne games that I've never been able to quite articulate, thank you for helping me realize what it was that I had felt for such a long time playing these games as someone who duffers from heavy depression.
A lot of this describes how I feel about Metroid Prime 2. Not the details, but the overall sentiment. The way Samus starts from nothing and it feels like the whole world is beating down on her, compared to the unstoppable tank feeling at the end. It's a very dark and oppressive game that I tend to gravitate toward when I'm upset, just for that catharsis of overcoming Dark Aether and learning the world and Samus' arsenal.
Can't wait to try this series out once Switch gets DS.
OP, have you watched NakeyJakey's Dark Souls Saved My Life video? I think you might feel some comfort in listening to his experience with the game too.
