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DC Films Still Doesn’t Know What To Do With Superman (with a hot take in the end)

alexiswrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
570
this "basest concept" perception is absolutely a product of seeing characters through the lens of the stories that authors have most frequently chosen in the past to tell with them. why is a superpowered African king of a sci-fi utopia intrinsically "about Africa and black people" and a superpowered alien from space who came to America as a baby and grew up to stand for truth, justice, and the American way not intrinsically "about immigrants"?

the tweet in the OP is calling this out as blinkered thinking
I don't think that's true, or at best it's true in a backwards way. Black panther stories feature a black people and Africa because at that's what the character is, Black panther is A black, African king of a country that avoided colonialism, that is intrinsically about black people and Africa. I don't think that's a choice, in the same that I don't think it's a choice for James bond stories to feature a person from the UK who's a spy. I don't think it's a choice for Black Panther to not be about a white Norwegian king. There are core parts of these stories which have to be present, generally at all times for it to even be a story about those characters. Superman being an immigrant isn't that, to be honest Superman is an immigrant in name only. Like I've pointed out, in no substantive way is he representative of immigrants and in no substantive way does his presence relate to them. This is not the case with black panther and black people.
 

yuoke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,925
Now there's a crappy and cynical take.

I always found Superman makes the biggest impression when he's saving lives, not trading blows. Picture a young Christopher Reeve giving a little girl a humble nod and smile after rescuing her kitten from a tree before flying off. That's what Superman always was to me - strength in kindness. We can't be Superman but we could all be what he represents. All it needs is Lex to fuck with that a bit.

I'd imagine that's a hard sell for today's movie goers though.
Is mcu captain America that far off?
 

Froyo Love

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,021
I don't think that's true, or at best it's true in a backwards way. Black panther stories feature a black people and Africa because at that's what the character is, Black panther is A black, African king of a country that avoided colonialism, that is intrinsically about black people and Africa. I don't think that's a choice, in the same that I don't think it's a choice for James bond stories to feature a person from the UK who's a spy. I don't think it's a choice for Black Panther to not be about a white Norwegian king. There are core parts of these stories which have to be present, generally at all times for it to even be a story about those characters. Superman being an immigrant isn't that, to be honest Superman is an immigrant in name only. Like I've pointed out, in no substantive way is he representative of immigrants and in no substantive way does his presence relate to them. This is not the case with black panther and black people.
by your standard, is the Black Panther character Black in name only? how is he representative beyond the color of his skin and the continent of his birth? he didn't grow up facing discrimination or traumas based in racism, he's a super-privileged cishet male superhero/monarch - but that would be a very weird justification for not engaging with Black issues in a story with Black Panther. part of why the character is appealing is because of the power fantasy where he's a Black African who doesn't have to deal with any racist bullshit, or alternatively can knock it firmly on its ass when it appears

Superman is an immigrant. it is the core of his origin story. if he doesn't seem like an immigrant to you, that's because writers have historically not been interested in telling stories that engage with the immigrant experience. that should probably change.
 

Stinkles

343 Industries
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
15,857
Man of Steel is a great Superman film with some easy to fix flaws.

but here’s the real pitch:

Marvel/DC crossover where the Grandmaster opens some sorta spacehole and accidentally or deliberately brings Supes into the marvel universe.

then for the next three hours has Supes fight not just ever increasingly strong Marvel characters (starting with Hawkeye - working through heroes and bad guys including galactus etc, and ending with supes getting absolutely pasted by Namor, obviously) but also natural disasters including meteors and volcanoes and Marshawn Lynch and whatnot - with ever more expensive fights. That’s it. Quips galore obviously but we don’t need any bothersome story complications or kryptonite.

it’s called

Superman Vs A-thing

Post credits sequence is Namor dusting himself off and about to leave when all of a sudden he hears a squirrelly gurl voice saying, “leaving so soon, fishfuck?”
 

Mengy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,202
This vid right here is how you make a decent Superman movie:


Summary: hire a writer and director who actually likes the character of Superman and doesn't try to turn him into something else.
 

Stabbie

Member
May 8, 2019
1,850
Nobody will be able to top Man of Steel anytime soon on a visual standpoint so yeah, better do some other stuff on the side

Its kinda striking how different cultures perceived the movie vastly differently. Here in france in every single showing I went in, the whole room did a standing ovation at the end (3 different times)
 

Agent Unknown

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,654
Oh hell could you imagine a film adaptation of Grounded? I'm almost thankful we got Snyder Superman now.
Joking aside, I usually love the work of JMS (especially Babylon 5) but Grounded was awful. There was a bit where Superman even seems to make a snide ‘why don’t you pull yourselves up by your bootstraps and help yourselves’ type comment to a family of extraterrestrial “immigrants” he encounters while he’s taking his walk if I remember correctly. Like, yikes.
 

Wingfan19

Verified
Oct 25, 2017
5,102
Bothell WA
Cavill seems to get it at least


"I'd like to delve more into the aspect of Superman [that] we traditionally know, coupled with where we left him with Man of Steel," Cavill explained. "It's the hero who is trying to exist in a world where people may say he's not relevant anymore -- where, actually, he's extraordinarily relevant and it's him coming to terms with that and becoming that relevance and showing people that hope does exist without it being too chocolate box."

The leading man added: "I wanted to still have an edge but to have some warmth to it and to have some hope to it."
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
11,088
Thanks, Zack, you killed Superman on film for next 10 years if not longer.


FFS, look at the DCAU. Just make him Superman. No deconstruction or whatnot like Snyder. Make him like this:
You can deconstruct Superman and make it great, Red Son was all about that.

Problem is Snyder had the mental facilities of a 12 year-old Call of Duty player. His idea of deconstruction is

 

alexiswrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
570
by your standard, is the Black Panther character Black in name only? how is he representative beyond the color of his skin and the continent of his birth? he didn't grow up facing discrimination or traumas based in racism, he's a super-privileged cishet male superhero/monarch - but that would be a very weird justification for not engaging with Black issues in a story with Black Panther. part of why the character is appealing is because of the power fantasy where he's a Black African who doesn't have to deal with any racist bullshit, or alternatively can knock it firmly on its ass when it appears

Superman is an immigrant. it is the core of his origin story. if he doesn't seem like an immigrant to you, that's because writers have historically not been interested in telling stories that engage with the immigrant experience. that should probably change.
Of course Black panther isn't the same here. He's a Black African ruling the one African country that escaped colonialism. His origin itself is a commentary on historical racism. He isn't a black alien who came down from space, except even then someone could make the case that he would suffer all the same racism as me if we both walked into the wrong store, the difference is that he would have means to address it. However, superman would never face discrimination or bigotry because of being an immigrant, even if he didn't have any powers that would be the case.

Superman is an immigrant in the same way wonder woman is an immigrant and the same way Thor is an immigrant. Just because somone comes from magical superhero land that doesn't automatically mean I think they represent the immigrant experience. The most weird thing about this is that there are actual characters who more closely represent the immigrant experience and it feels like we're overlooking them.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,650
Joking aside, I usually love the work of JMS (especially Babylon 5) but Grounded was awful. There was a bit where Superman even seems to make a snide ‘why don’t you pull yourselves up by your bootstraps and help yourselves’ type comment to a family of extraterrestrial “immigrants” he encounters while he’s taking his walk if I remember correctly. Like, yikes.
Not exactly it's an alien family refugees who were hiding in a suburbs and brought with themselves tons of gold because they're aliens for whom gold is plentiful

Superman got mad at them for just being surviving refugees and not contributing and then forced them to use their medical technology to heal people in order to contribute

I don't get the metaphor either
 

Agent Unknown

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,654
Not exactly it's an alien family refugees who were hiding in a suburbs and brought with themselves tons of gold because they're aliens for whom gold is plentiful

Superman got mad at them for just being surviving refugees and not contributing and then forced them to use their medical technology to heal people in order to contribute

I don't get the metaphor either
Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, still odd.
 
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Doober

The Fallen
Jun 10, 2018
2,992
Still can't believe Snyder fucked up Cavill's run so badly. But the guy doesn't even like the concept of superheroes so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
 

Vordan

Member
Aug 12, 2018
1,204
Even if they turned in a Superman film with Dark Knight quality or Guardians of the Galaxy fun appeal I don't see it reaching the same box office heights as his contemporaries.

The problem is that he's too familiar and it leaves very little for audiences to get curious enough to go see.
You’re correct up to a point, but then you need to just take lessons from MCU Spidey. His last couple of films were pretty bad too, so what did Feige do? He made sure Peter wasn’t fighting Green Goblin or Doc Ock again. Snyder did a good job with Zod and a terrible job with Lex. Put BOTH of those guys on the shelf. Use Metallo, Brainiac, or Manchester Black. Pull a Ragnarok and have Superman be abducted by Mongul to fight in Warworld gladiator matches. Do something other than the two villains he’s fought over and over and that will get people interested right there because at least it’s something new.
 

Keym

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
5,668
You’re correct up to a point, but then you need to just take lessons from MCU Spidey. His last couple of films were pretty bad too, so what did Feige do? He made sure Peter wasn’t fighting Green Goblin or Doc Ock again. Snyder did a good job with Zod and a terrible job with Lex. Put BOTH of those guys on the shelf. Use Metallo, Brainiac, or Manchester Black. Pull a Ragnarok and have Superman be abducted by Mongul to fight in Warworld gladiator matches. Do something other than the two villains he’s fought over and over and that will get people interested right there because at least it’s something new.
This is why Reeves should use villains like Calendar Man and Condiment King instead of the usual rogues.
 

Happenstance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,015
United Kingdom
I know it probably sounds boring but I just want a Superman movie where he is the boyscout, where he is the beacon of hope and looked up to by all the other heroes. Justice League tried to fake this with no build up. I think it can work really well, especially in a shared universe where you can get a proper clash between the darkness of Batman and light of Superman. I wasn't necessarily a Batman v Superman hater but it didn't feel like there was enough of a difference between the two.

To be honest with all the buzz for the tv Crisis crossover I'd happily have Routh's Superman back. Tell his stories after Superman Returns that could lead into him becoming Kingdom Come Superman.
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,465
I feel like there is plenty of desire for a Superman who is just wholly good and willing to fight hard to do the right thing. Nihilism and hopelessness and gray areas are plentiful, the world needs more lightness and hope in their heroes.
 

xaM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,605
U.S.
I'm pretty sure they're undoing HiC in record time with that new Wally mini.
Hopefully. I've stayed away from Flash Forward because of the creative team. My hope was that they'd give him some sort of Paralax/Green Lantern Rebirth retcon and hand wave away everything he did by saying he was unwillingly taken under the influence by some sort of corrupted speed force.
least they're finally getting around to releasing tpb of his flash run.
I never buy physical comics anymore but I really want these. Waid's run on Flash is my all-time favorite.
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,087
Hopefully. I've stayed away from Flash Forward because of the creative team. My hope was that they'd give him some sort of Paralax/Green Lantern Rebirth retcon and hand wave away everything he did by saying he was unwillingly taken under the influence by some sort of corrupted speed force.

I never buy physical comics anymore but I really want these. Waid's run on Flash is my all-time favorite.
It's about Wally being the only person who can save the entire universe so I think it's just there to reestablish him as a hero so HiC can go rightfully ignored.
 

deadman322

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,330
Hopefully. I've stayed away from Flash Forward because of the creative team. My hope was that they'd give him some sort of Paralax/Green Lantern Rebirth retcon and hand wave away everything he did by saying he was unwillingly taken under the influence by some sort of corrupted speed force.

I never buy physical comics anymore but I really want these. Waid's run on Flash is my all-time favorite.
they're also starting to release the baron and messner-loeb stuff.
I'm pretty sure they're undoing HiC in record time with that new Wally mini.
that books just 6 issues of lip service before he gets killed off in next years event.
 

Gabbo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
I mean there were hints of it in Man of Steel with how the military reacted to him at first, but it's lost in Snyder's obsession with making him some kind of moody, randian Christ-figure that it's almost impossible to find, and I like Man of Steel.
If you drop the 'edgy' part of Snyder, and stuck with even how Caville described him, then you're set.