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DCEU Era |OT| Crisis on Infinite Forums

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Oct 26, 2017
11,426
I am confused, a lot of audiences and critics don't see Captain America as arrogant or self righteous, they see it as a valid point that Captain America sees himself as essentially above the law. It's why people say Captain is more Superman than Superman because they view that as the correct position when if honest, it's really not for a variety of reasons I already explained. Captain America feels he is above the law because he knows best, Superman doesn't because he feels he can be fallible and can do better. It's why Cap rejects the Sokovia Accords but why Superman goes to a hearing he didn't have to attend.
Every time Civil War is brought up, it kicks off a discussion about who was right, Tony or Cap. On one side you have people saying that Tony was right because he wanted oversight and Cap was arrogant to think that „the safest hands are [their] own“. On the other side you have people saying that Cap was right because institutions in the Marvel Universe have shown to be unreliable over and over again and because Tony‘s guilt over the actions of Age of Ultron is clouding his judgement. But then again, Bucky‘s involvement makes Steve biased etc. The entire point of Civil War is how personal matters can interfere in ideological conflicts. It‘s not high cinema and it is kind of a „dub“ message. But the fact that it plays with audiences values to the point where you have wildly differing opinions on who was right is testament to its strengths as a film. That‘s successful storytelling.

Hey that first season was money
In retrospect, Flash S1 sticks out like a sore thumb among these CW shows.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,498
Yall. It'll be ok. It's just movies. I have a feeling WB couldn't wait to get this movie out there and over with tbh. They'll probably focus on solo adventures mostly after this. WW was good. Aquaman is finished and had no issues we know of. Things will be fine.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,288
The only thing I can see saving the movie in terms of B.O is a positive cinemascore and word of mouth. The movie will need legs because the buzz around it is poor at the moment.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,053
While I was taking my morning shower, as I rubbed my head with Head and Shoulders Champoo I started reminiscing about how the DCEU was handled through what we may call “The Snyder phase”, culminating with Justice League.


I personally blame Marvel Studios for their critic bribery

(I’m kidding fellow MCU lurkers! Please understand ;) )


But seriously,although I personally like most of the movies, I think this was a textbook example of how poor planning + studio meddling can make or break a cinematic universe. In this case I would say most decisions WB made backfired.

Back in 2011, after the success of Iron Man, WB wanted to get in on the game and gave us Green Lantern, starring Van Wilder as Hal Jordan. Although this lighthearted fun “by the numbers” superhero outing bombed hard, and to this day people want to forget that movie even existed. This was supposed to be the first chapter in a DC cinematic universe.

Imagine a world where Green Lantern was a success and Ryan Reynolds became the godfather of the DCEU, much in the way RDJ is in the MCU.

WB had Ryan, one of the most loveable, funny and charismatic leading men within their ranks, but alas it was not to happen, and now we got Ben Affleck which never looked as enthusiastic as his co-stars are regarding their characters, but I digress..

Anyway, WB were trying to figure out what they would do next, and one of the suits realized how successful Nolan was with his serious grounded take on Batman and his monologging butler about the “soize” of those tangerines.

Then they had an epiphany and realized: Let’s apply this asthetic always! Superman is next. Call Goyer and Zack Snyder.

Now, hindsight is 20/20, and Zack is regarded nowadays as a guy who doesn’t understand the characters judging by his risky interpretations, but there was a time, in a galaxy far away when Zack Snyder was actually known to stick by the source material as much as he could (or even too much, as some have argued), squid or no squid.

Then MoS came out, with some middling reviews and Zack’s choices began to be questioned, but the movie did well enough so Snyder had full input for the sequel. Enter BvS, the almost 4 hour epic approved by WB....until they got cold feet and demanded Zack to cut the movie down and make it more Batman centric for money reasons.

Hello world, here’s BvS Theatrical version. Thing turned for the worst, WB were in panic, Got Ayer for Suicide Squad but gave him like a month to write a script and put him on directing duties. WB being WB decided the movie wasn’t MTV enough, so “we’ll take care of it”. Movie made money, sure, but it was still a disaster, the DCEU brand was in a bad light.

Then it came Wonder Woman to save the day, it’s amazing what happens when the studios put the right people in charge and take a step back. This one is still the shining beacon for many.

Then it was JL’s turn, although the DCEU brand regained a bit of faith, Zack’s track record wasn’t exactly hype material. Again a lot of changes were made post-BvS , Zack had to recruit some help for the reshoots, tragedy happened and he had to relegate the reigns entirely to another person, and once again WB stepped in demanding the movie should come under 2 hours. And now apparently the movie, although did some good course redirecting, is estimated to underperform, and it’s kinda hard to deny that one of the reasons is that the DCEU is a poisoned well as far as brand goes by this point.

Here’s hoping the next phase will do better.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,236
Cap only believes the Avengers are above the law when it suits his needs. In both Avengers and Winter Solider he chastise's Fury for wanting to be prepared. He equally does the same too Tony saying they'll do down fighting together.

However when it was his turn to chose the well being of others over his personal gain, Steve chose his friend who was a potential danger to everyone around him and broke up the Avengers whilst doing so.
 

Strafer

The Flagpole is Wider
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,717
Sweden
While I was taking my morning shower, as I rubbed my head with Head and Shoulders Champoo I started reminiscing about how the DCEU was handled through what we may call “The Snyder phase”, culminating with Justice League.


I personally blame Marvel Studios for their critic bribery

(I’m kidding fellow MCU lurkers! Please understand ;) )


But seriously,although I personally like most of the movies, I think this was a textbook example of how poor planning + studio meddling can make or break a cinematic universe. In this case I would say most decisions WB made backfired.

Back in 2011, after the success of Iron Man, WB wanted to get in on the game and gave us Green Lantern, starring Van Wilder as Hal Jordan. Although this lighthearted fun “by the numbers” superhero outing bombed hard, and to this day people want to forget that movie even existed. This was supposed to be the first chapter in a DC cinematic universe.

Imagine a world where Green Lantern was a success and Ryan Reynolds became the godfather of the DCEU, much in the way RDJ is in the MCU.

WB had Ryan, one of the most loveable, funny and charismatic leading men within their ranks, but alas it was not to happen, and now we got Ben Affleck which never looked as enthusiastic as his co-stars are regarding their characters, but I digress..

Anyway, WB were trying to figure out what they would do next, and one of the suits realized how successful Nolan was with his serious grounded take on Batman and his monologging butler about the “soize” of those tangerines.

Then they had an epiphany and realized: Let’s apply this asthetic always! Superman is next. Call Goyer and Zack Snyder.

Now, hindsight is 20/20, and Zack is regarded nowadays as a guy who doesn’t understand the characters judging by his risky interpretations, but there was a time, in a galaxy far away when Zack Snyder was actually known to stick by the source material as much as he could (or even too much, as some have argued), squid or no squid.

Then MoS came out, with some middling reviews and Zack’s choices began to be questioned, but the movie did well enough so Snyder had full input for the sequel. Enter BvS, the almost 4 hour epic approved by WB....until they got cold feet and demanded Zack to cut the movie down and make it more Batman centric for money reasons.

Hello world, here’s BvS Theatrical version. Thing turned for the worst, WB were in panic, Got Ayer for Suicide Squad but gave him like a month to write a script and put him on directing duties. WB being WB decided the movie wasn’t MTV enough, so “we’ll take care of it”. Movie made money, sure, but it was still a disaster, the DCEU brand was in a bad light.

Then it came Wonder Woman to save the day, it’s amazing what happens when the studios put the right people in charge and take a step back. This one is still the shining beacon for many.

Then it was JL’s turn, although the DCEU brand regained a bit of faith, Zack’s track record wasn’t exactly hype material. Again a lot of changes were made post-BvS , Zack had to recruit some help for the reshoots, tragedy happened and he had to relegate the reigns entirely to another person, and once again WB stepped in demanding the movie should come under 2 hours. And now apparently the movie, although did some good course redirecting, is estimated to underperform, and it’s kinda hard to deny that one of the reasons is that the DCEU is a poisoned well as far as brand goes by this point.

Here’s hoping the next phase will do better.
my man
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,328
I don't think the DCEU is a poisoned well. wW proved that we just need good movies. Any, and I do mean any, comic book movie can do well at the box office if it's good nowadays with good reviews. All you need is good buzz and good word of mouth and people will see it. Even Shazam.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
I left the theatre an hour ago and have already forgotten most of JL

It certainly has its share of enjoyable moments. That cast is great and work well together, and the action, while far less memorable than Snyder's past work, is still fun to watch. The humor also lands more often than not, which is always a nice bonus.

But man, it's kinda just "there". I can't think of a single stand out scene. The pacing is completely rushed , which gives the film a "cartoon pilot" feel rather than the closing chapter of Snyder's trilogy.

Its easy to tell this was ripped from Snyder's hands way before he stepped down, because nothing about it seems like his prior work at all. There's no weight or style to anything here, it's all just kinda bland.

I'll defend BvS and MoS till my dying day. JL, on the other hand, deserves its reception.

WB really needs an entire reset of their upper management team.
Ouch. Harsh from the Viper.

So what does everyone think the fall out will be if the opening weekend is as bad as the early Thursday estimates indicate?

Basically reboot Batman as a standalone trilogy and hope Reeves pulls a Nolan? Shift Wonder Woman to being solo only? Seems like the result of JL failing to light the boxoffice on fire will be to move into the direction of focusing on self contained solo series and staying away from the shared universe stuff. I am sure we are going to get a new cast for the Batman Reeves film at least after this.
Affleck gone. Cavill maybe gone.

Again, they've done most of the changes already. Aquaman is in the hopper. Wonder Woman 2 is coming. Shazam will probably stay on track. The Batman is pushed into production sooner rather than later. Suicide Squad 2 probably stays on the schedule.

Everything else is up in the air. You don't do Batgirl and Nightwing if you can't get Batman down right. Cyborg and Flash probably need films, but I feel like they'll wait until Aquaman shakes out.

But anyway it doesn't really matter if i could objectively point out every non-plothole in BVS and could talk about all the comic book precedent for all the perceived mischaracterisations of the characters. For a lot of audiences, emotions are more important than actions IMO. People felt that Superman was more Superman cos he shook a firefighters hand at the start of JL and talked to a kid about hope and all that crap as well as raced with the Flash rather than him saving an oil rig worker, feeling unsure about well intentioned actions having unforeseen consequences like saving a village being hit by a drone and him being blamed for a massacre or him going to a hearing to be held accountable for said massacre and a bomb going off and him feeling upset he wasn't looking for said bomb and the people he helped not being interested in his help because they are "too dark". But hey I am the type of guy whose favorite Superman books were stuff like It's a Bird and Secret Identity. though I did have a soft spot for Superman of all Seasons
Yes. We kept saying that in the last thread. Framing, cinematography, and whatnot matter far more than what the text is saying.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,658
Yall. It'll be ok. It's just movies. I have a feeling WB couldn't wait to get this movie out there and over with tbh. They'll probably focus on solo adventures mostly after this. WW was good. Aquaman is finished and had no issues we know of. Things will be fine.
WB right now:

 
Oct 25, 2017
10,480
The only thing I can see saving the movie in terms of B.O is a positive cinemascore and word of mouth. The movie will need legs because the buzz around it is poor at the moment.
It's going to have no legs. It might get tripped up by Coco and have is legs blasted off by TLJ.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,323
I'd be sad to not see Flash and Cyborg again. Ray and Ezra were both great.

Call up Rick Famuyiwa and apologize for being dummies, and get him back on board, WB.


I really hope Deathstroke doesn't get canned either because MAAAANNNN
he looked so fucking rad
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,426
Yes. We kept saying that in the last thread. Framing, cinematography, and whatnot matter far more than what the text is saying.
This goes into the discussion of story vs essence and I'd argue that the reason why people like Batman v Superman in the first place is also essence. Snyder is an excellent aestheticist that can pull you in into his gritty, dour, pseudo-objectivist worlds - if you're perceptive to them. But it all happens on an essence level and not really story.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,323
It's actually a great thing Aquaman is so far off. Plenty of time to forget that JL even happened.

Momo was cool, but he had nothing at all to do really. Wan will surely fix that.

Snyder and Batfleck are both gone so whatever.
Yeah but the solo pic they just announced though, I hope that doesn't go off track
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,498
It's going to have no legs. It might get tripped up by Coco and have is legs blasted off by TLJ.
SW is a month away. Legs or not for these movies it was going to taper off around then anyway.

Oh it'll be a disappointment, but what else can they change that they haven't already? JL was already into production before BvS was released right? We saw what they did with WW. Aquaman is done and it seems that production had smooth sailing. Now it's just all about if the movie is good. Has a solid cast.

Like I said. Focus on solo adventures. self contained. A Flash movie will have interest, Batman will no doubt.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
This goes into the discussion of story vs essence and I'd argue that the reason why people like Batman v Superman in the first place is also essence. Snyder is an excellent aestheticist that can pull you in into his gritty, dour, pseudo-objectivist worlds - if you're perceptive to them. But it all happens on an essence level and not really story.
I'd agree with that. I've always said Snyder can compose an amazing shot and there are moments that hit quite well, it's just... everything else around those shots falters.

I'll always go back to Man of Steel's first flight, which remains a) absolutely well shot and composed and b) pure Snyder.

Yeah but the solo pic they just announced though, I hope that doesn't go off track
Two Batman films made a billion. Never worry about Batman. That solo is coming. It's the others that are sketchy.
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,426
I'd agree with that. I've always said Snyder can compose an amazing shot and there are moments that hit quite well, it's just... everything else around those shots falters.

I'll always go back to Man of Steel's first flight, which remains a) absolutely well shot and composed and b) pure Snyder.
haha, the first Man of Steel flight is an inspiring, emotionally rewarding scene

in a movie that is anything but
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,498
It's actually a great thing Aquaman is so far off. Plenty of time to forget that JL even happened.

Momo was cool, but he had nothing at all to do really. Wan will surely fix that.


Yeah but the solo pic they just announced though, I hope that doesn't go off track
Don't think it will. The Batman isn't tied to JL. Reeves is pretty much doing a trilogy. It's not going to have to do the job of worldbuilding. Sure there will probably be a reference here or there. But that's where it ends.

Also Batman isn't coming out until like 2020. People will have had their palettes refreshed at that point.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,658
Oh it'll be a disappointment, but what else can they change that they haven't already? JL was already into production before BvS was released right? We saw what they did with WW. Aquaman is done and it seems that production had smooth sailing. Now it's just all about if the movie is good. Has a solid cast.

Like I said. Focus on solo adventures. self contained. A Flash movie will have interest, Batman will no doubt.
There was far too much meddling from executives who have no experience in filmmaking much less comic books. They brought Johns in but the damage has already been done.

Two Batman films made a billion. Never worry about Batman. That solo is coming. It's the others that are sketchy.
The point is that whoever takes over will fuck up Batman and Deathstroke's fight scenes.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,328
Three movies? I think that it will have some world building. Not to MCU level but still some. There has to be some cameos as well. Three movies is a lot of story for Reeves

Firemind they have Gareth fucking Evans for Deathstroke. There's no worry about his fight scenes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,498
There was far too much meddling from executives who have no experience in filmmaking much less comic books. They brought Johns in but the damage has already been done.


The point is that whoever takes over will fuck up Batman and Deathstroke's fight scenes.
Well Johns definitely helped with WW. the damage didn't hurt that movie at all. They can do some really cool shit with Aquaman. If they can pull that off people will show up. They better not shelve Flash. A movie like that screams fun and awesome with his powers. Cyborg probably isn't happening. Ever. They can get away with doing Batgirl and Nightwing as those movies will significantly smaller budgets.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,349
Germany
So please dont get me wrong, I am not here to provoke anything or with bad intentions, I really want to understand something:

Where does that narrative come from, that the DCEU has higher stakes? Its something that really makes me curious, because from my POV, there are no bigger stakes - The biggest thing that would IMO count would be the death of Superman, but his return was already teased like 5 minutes after that, so I would not count that. Other things that come to my mind are the death toll from the fight between Zod and Superman, but even that is not a that special event for a cape movie.

I am not trolling with this, I really just want to know what you are thinking, I tend to get annoyed really fast over the reversed argument (Marvel has no stakes, trolololo), where I can see where its coming from (The good guys save the day, like as good as always in superhero media), but IMO its not really different at DC.

Like I said. I dont want a fight, I just would like to understand your point of view.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,498
So please dont get me wrong, I am not here to provoke anything or with bad intentions, I really want to understand something:

Where does that narrative come from, that the DCEU has higher stakes? Its something that really makes me curious, because from my POV, there are no bigger stakes - The biggest thing that would IMO count would be the death of Superman, but his return was already teased like 5 minutes after that, so I would not count that. Other things that come to my mind are the death toll from the fight between Zod and Superman, but even that is not a that special event for a cape movie.

I am not trolling with this, I really just want to know what you are thinking, I tend to get annoyed really fast over the reversed argument (Marvel has no stakes, trolololo), where I can see where its coming from (The good guys save the day, like as good as always in superhero media), but IMO its not really different at DC.

Like I said. I dont want a fight, I just would like to understand your point of view.
Like you said. There really isn't. MOST of these stories boil down to some villain trying to do some fucked up shit and heroes save the day. Like you know they will.

Quite frankly the only movie I think that will have the most stake is Infinity War.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,323
I really hope the Affleck rumors aren't true
It's done. There's too much smoke at this point.

It really is too bad since I dug Ben's portrayal, even here in JL where he's mostly playing himself.

If it's truly Jake G in the cards though, then I have no worries for Batman's next appearance
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,328
So please dont get me wrong, I am not here to provoke anything or with bad intentions, I really want to understand something:

Where does that narrative come from, that the DCEU has higher stakes? Its something that really makes me curious, because from my POV, there are no bigger stakes - The biggest thing that would IMO count would be the death of Superman, but his return was already teased like 5 minutes after that, so I would not count that. Other things that come to my mind are the death toll from the fight between Zod and Superman, but even that is not a that special event for a cape movie.

I am not trolling with this, I really just want to know what you are thinking, I tend to get annoyed really fast over the reversed argument (Marvel has no stakes, trolololo), where I can see where its coming from (The good guys save the day, like as good as always in superhero media), but IMO its not really different at DC.

Like I said. I dont want a fight, I just would like to understand your point of view.
I've been in these off topic threads quite a bit but don't think I've ever seen that narrative to be honest. Maybe they mean because JL is full of aliens and gods, so the villains and threats would be larger?
 
Oct 25, 2017
915
Only a 16 million opening day in China according to this Forbes article. Looks like Ant-Man will out gross it there.

As of late evening Beijing Time on Friday, Justice League had closed in on a $16 million opening day box office total, excluding Thursday previews and midnight screening collections. Assuming the picture stays on its current trajectory, it will finish its debut weekend with around $50 million. If it then follows that with a 2.1x lifetime multiple on its first weekend—an optimistic projection, to be sure—it will finish with a $105 million PRC total, exactly what Ant-Man collected all by his tiny little self last year.

That’s the optimistic case. A slightly more pessimistic—but equally plausible—scenario, would have Justice League earn a China lifetime multiple of 1.8 times the opening weekend figure, to take it to a $90 million total.

In neither case would Justice League reach $1 billion in global box office receipts. It would need China to kick in at least $150 million in collections, and probably more like $200 million, to cross into ten-figure box office territory.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,658
haha, the first Man of Steel flight is an inspiring, emotionally rewarding scene

in a movie that is anything but
I watched a retrospective and I like how they said Man of Steel is a story of two fathers: Jor-El who wants Clark to move forward uninhibited and help mankind, and Jonathan Kent who is pessimistic and thinks mankind will shun him because he's an alien. The dynamic is that Jon raised him and Clark didn't meet his real father until adulthood. When they meet, Jor-El reaffirms he's now human, not Kryptonian, which is why he says "Krypton had its chance." to Zod. Jor-El is the father Clark should have had and yet all Clark thinks about is Jon.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,461
So please dont get me wrong, I am not here to provoke anything or with bad intentions, I really want to understand something:

Where does that narrative come from, that the DCEU has higher stakes? Its something that really makes me curious, because from my POV, there are no bigger stakes - The biggest thing that would IMO count would be the death of Superman, but his return was already teased like 5 minutes after that, so I would not count that. Other things that come to my mind are the death toll from the fight between Zod and Superman, but even that is not a that special event for a cape movie.

I am not trolling with this, I really just want to know what you are thinking, I tend to get annoyed really fast over the reversed argument (Marvel has no stakes, trolololo), where I can see where its coming from (The good guys save the day, like as good as always in superhero media), but IMO its not really different at DC.

Like I said. I dont want a fight, I just would like to understand your point of view.
I think, at least for me, it comes down to showing all the bad things happening, like people being killed instead of just saying it happened. Example is both Avengers movies. Watching them, it looks like all civilians make it out okay and it was just a bad day and no big deal overall for everyone. Sure they may say after the fact that people died in later movies, but that doesn't really have the same effect or mean as much. Show, don't tell.

I also think tone has a lot to with it as well. While and after a certain very bad thing happened in Thor Ragnarok, they ruin the tone by throwing in jokes. I really enjoyed that movie, but that was a poor decision in my opinion
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,349
Germany
I've been in these off topic threads quite a bit but don't think I've ever seen that narrative to be honest. Maybe they mean because JL is full of aliens and gods, so the villains and threats would be larger?
Its brought up every time these movies are discussed, or at least when the quality is compared.


I think, at least for me, it comes down to showing all the bad things happening, like people being killed instead of just saying it happened. Example is both Avengers movies. Watching them, it looks like all civilians make it out okay and it was just a bad day and no big deal overall for everyone. Sure they may say after the fact that people died in later movies, but that doesn't really have the same effect or mean as much. Show, don't tell.
Thats a point that I can understand
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,498
It's more that people are expecting WB to clean house now that it is looking likely that JL is going to fall well short of it's boxoffice expectations.
I'd say more because he's not slated in anything. Any movie starring him would be past 2020. At that point It's possible to just recast. Especially since he's been in 3 movies now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,658
So please dont get me wrong, I am not here to provoke anything or with bad intentions, I really want to understand something:

Where does that narrative come from, that the DCEU has higher stakes? Its something that really makes me curious, because from my POV, there are no bigger stakes - The biggest thing that would IMO count would be the death of Superman, but his return was already teased like 5 minutes after that, so I would not count that. Other things that come to my mind are the death toll from the fight between Zod and Superman, but even that is not a that special event for a cape movie.

I am not trolling with this, I really just want to know what you are thinking, I tend to get annoyed really fast over the reversed argument (Marvel has no stakes, trolololo), where I can see where its coming from (The good guys save the day, like as good as always in superhero media), but IMO its not really different at DC.

Like I said. I dont want a fight, I just would like to understand your point of view.
It's how the world is framed. Superman's actions would have consequences in the real world and I liked that they added the perspectives of news organisations, talkshow hosts and government officials. Also, if Zod terraforming the Earth and killing everything on the planet isn't high stakes I don't know what is. Too bad they fucked up JL.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,323
Only a 16 million opening day in China according to this Forbes article. Looks like Ant-Man will out gross it there.


It's more that people are expecting WB to clean house now that it is looking likely that JL is going to fall well short of it's boxoffice expectations.
To be fair, Cavill doesn't seem like the type to become out of shape.

If they wanted to bring Superman back four years from now, I think he'd still be up for it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,542
I'd say more because he's not slated in anything. Any movie starring him would be past 2020. At that point It's possible to just recast. Especially since he's been in 3 movies now.
I think this is a bit of an issue with people on the outside. A Superman film coming out in 2020 would start to see a lot of activity within the next 6 months. Sure it's 2020, but things would be moving very soon.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,053
Oh no. But he's been the a part of three films and Man of Steel 2 and Justice League 2 aren't on the schedule anytime soon. If JL is too dire in its final take, they may scrap him and recast for an eventual Superman film, which would be 2020+ at the earliest.
It's more that people are expecting WB to clean house now that it is looking likely that JL is going to fall well short of it's boxoffice expectations.
While understandable, It would be a shame really, I can do without Ben but I really like Cavill. Still hoping he shows up in any of the others standalone movies in some capacity
 
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