Discussion in 'Hangouts' started by Loxley, Oct 25, 2017.
It sucks it too long for someone like Johns to right the ship, but I'm glad this looks to be the end of Snyderverse.
As someone loving Snyder's run through Metal, DC Comics deserve better.
Whedon was always coming in to help Snyder. And it seems his character moments are probably the highlights.
Also lets be real. The marketing for this movie wasn't good. It was just boring. And I think that's the biggest issue with the movie in general. Just a general sense of "meh".
Or are we forgetting that Cyborg got ripped apart, Flash got his leg hurt and Batman got his ribs bruised.
Also, yes it absolutely matters what they look like. Film is a visual medium.
Spoilers for the end of JL.
Cyborg changing his costume was sick so gooooood
No blood irks me so much more.
Spoiler: End movie spoiler
It was during the last shot of Cyborg with his dad. You can see his chest area transforming into the more classic Cyborg sold plated look. I guess in that scene you're looking at the actors faces more than his chest so they weren't hammering it over your head, but I totally caught it and was like, "YEEEES!"
But it also made the movie extra-boring
Up until last week I was convinced Aquaman was destined to kill it next year.
Regardless of JL's reception I expected the Wonder Woman effect. That he would steal the show in JL and that even the film's detractors would be pumped for his solo film. But he was the weakest character in the film by far imo so now I'm not so sure.
You're comparing superhero movies to Die Hard, the gold standard of action movies. There's a reason they shoot the glass when Hans realizes he's barefoot. That's organic storytelling. In superhero movies, it literally doesn't matter. Even in The Dark Knight Rises, it matters little when Bruce got his back supposedly broken. In Iron Man 3, Tony constantly changes suits in the middle of a fight like they're expendable and they were. So, no, it doesn't matter if you see Superman is visibly worn down. If anything, people would complain he's weak and not muh Superman.
Interesting if Snyder hasn’t seen it yet. Seems like neither he or Whedon want to take ownership of the movie. I mean, the movie premiere didn’t even have a director show up, which is pretty weird.
I like the Smallville fight because it depicts how strong Faora is when you see Clark actually winded after the former tosses him around and such. Against Zod, he looks like he's engaging in a sparring match.
"I will be honest I have not seen the film when I stepped away"
So Snyder gave zero input when he stepped away from JL?
Oh never mind it was confirmed already by Wired: https://www.wired.com/story/zack-snyder-new-iphone-movie/
Rise's was....quite something ahaha
As promised I'm going to talk about what was changed, removed, deleted and Snyder vs Whedon.
I feel at this point the people who are actively in this thread have seen it or about to see it. Time to break this down and just to be safe I'm going to label this under spoilers:
(Sorry for the mess of the format!)
Edit: -superman in the cell phone footage is Whedon
- intro with Batman was Whedon, same with Batman in the plane talking to Alfred
- World without Hope montage was Snyder. The Lois bit with the empty bed next to her is actually from a later point in the movie repurposed for this
- Snyder original cut had the World without Hope montage go straight into Batman meeting with Aquaman in the village which went on longer as well. Same with their conversation after as Aquaman swims off
- Deleted Snyder scene with Martha and Lois talking in the apartment.
- Wonder Woman sequence in London is mostly all Snyder but trimmed down as the original had her taking out all the bad guys and additional slow-mo. Snyder loves his close up to convey information as there's a close up of the lead bad guy changing the gun from single to automatic mode after Wonder Woman stops the first bullet. Reshoots did add dialogue between Wonder Woman and lead bad guy before she stops all the bullets. This reshoot had everything finished to get it ready for the movie so I suspect this will be in extended version
- this cuts into the Amazonian which is Snyder and mostly not changed. A scene they removed was an Amazon being turned into a demon during Steppenwolf initial encounter. She kills herself before the transformation finishes. This shot was finished so maybe extended version
- anything with the russian family is Whedon
- Cyborgs dad talking to the janitor at Star Labs was Whedon
- Cyborg intro with his dad is a longer scene as well and Snyder . The scene starts with him looking at the people walking around the streets enjoying their lives as he looks on with envy.
- Wonder Woman meeting up with Batman while he repairs the jet was Snyder, them discussing the nature of the motherboxes on the Lake was Whedon.
- Thousand year battle is mostly the same in Snyder version, there was a back and forth between adding more focus on the Green Lantern or not. Darkseid actually showed up here as a visual stand in for Steppenwolf as one point the model wasn't quite ready yet.
- Flash scene filling out the forms and visiting his dad is Snyder
- Batman meeting Flash was Snyder. Whedon added 'people are slow, I'll try to keep up' bit
- Aquaman saving the man out in the sea was originally the end montage footage repurposed to here and it was Snyder. I believe the bits of him dumping the guy at the bar is Snyder as well
- Aquaman coming back as Steppenwolf tries and succeed in taking the motherbox is Snyder still. The only real change up is when Aquaman and Mera have a discussion which again went on longer and was a mix of both Snyder, Whedon and Wan as Aquaman was filming at the time
The discussion between Mera and Aquaman was deleted at some point and I believe someone fought hard for this to come back in the edit which I'm glad they kept in.
- janitor being taken by the demon is Snyder
- Woman on tv about her missing husband, Lois/Martha at the daily planet is Whedon
- Cyborg calling out to meet Wonder Woman and their meeting on the streets is mostly Snyder. There may be some minor bits with Cyborg as a reshoot but unsure. Alfred line about date night may have been ADR later
- Cyborg dad being kidnapped by demon to Gordon in the station to the gang meeting up on the roof and then heading to the sewers is Snyder but trimmed by a few seconds.
- Wonder Woman talking about 'doing this together as a team' and Cyborg 'didn't think you were real' were cut
- Flash panicking and Batman encouraging him to save one person is Whedon
- Cyborg saving his dad is mostly the same so Snyder.
- Wonder Woman openly taunts Steppenwolf was cut before shoving him through the wall. The fight is Snyder with added Whedon dialogue as Wonder Woman looks pissed Steppenwolf mentioned his axe having amazon blood on it.
- Flash interrupts Batman as he fights the demons, this is where the dodge sequence occurred and later cut. There was an attempt to keep it in for many versions with even a reshoot element of Flash saying 'I thought we were suppose to do this together!' Flash pushing the demon through the wall was later repurposed as Cyborg doing it. Most likely will not be extended version
- I believe Batman yells at Flash to ensure the Star Labs people are out with Cyborgs help as a demon starts to overpower Batman
- Scene with Cyborg getting people out as Flash looks on is cut
- the Flash getting people out one at a time is Whedon as is Cyborg dad explaining to him that they're after the box as Cyborg shoots a demon (repurposed from earlier)
- Batman fighting the demon on the higher level is Snyder with the WW fight still the same.
- Steppenwolf throws WW to the wall and then charges his axe at her which she dodges, this attack causes a chain reaction in which the building starts to crumble on the outside and there's now falling debris which leds towards a cut of the Star Labs people outside with the Flash. He see the debris falling so he uses his speed to punch the debris out of the way from the people but somehow misses the last big piece in which Cyborg shoots it out of the way. This was cut and in the original trailer:
This sequence had mostly finished VFX but I doubt you will see this in extended
- Batman saying 'my turn' is Snyder and is cut replaced with 'I didn't bring a sword' and 'he's tall' is Whedon.
- Cyborg asking Flash to go check on the others is cut. VFX was finished as well
- Flash helping WW with her sword is Snyder. Face plant joke after is Whedon
- Whedon reshoot of Flash replying with 'does he mean me?' when Steppenwolf mentions the Old Gods blood is cut
- WW doing her arm thing, Flash being taken by the demons, Cyborg taking over the vehicle and shooting at Steppenwolf and the flood is Snyder
- Reshot element from Wan of Aquaman emerging from the water to kick Steppenwolf before turning back to try to help slow down the flooding.
- 'did he just bail?' is ADR in, not part of Snyder original cut.
- Meeting up with Gordon and Cyborg coming back with the box is Snyder. Some scenes trimmed down
- Steppenwolf speech about finding the last box is mostly the same in Snyder.
- The gang going to the Batcave is Whedon, there was an extended scene with Flash and Alfred and Flash hugs Alfred some reason.
- The gang talking about the nature of the boxes and bringing back Superman is Whedon. Gal was not available during this time as she was doing press tour for Wonder Woman so her double was her stand in and even did some acting and that bit with her hitting Batman. In the wide shots if you look carefully you can still see that it's not Gal.
The footage of Gal was shot on a later date with green screen and composited in
- Batman talking to Alfred about Superman was Whedon
- Batman overlooking the ship is Snyder. Batman talking to Wonder Woman about the plan overlooking the kryptonian ship is Whedon
- the Lois shot from earlier in the opening montage movie was a part of this sequence as Alfred attempts to call her as well. Snyder
- break into the kryptonian ship was a longer, Cyborgs dad fakes a code red to get everyone out of the lab so the gang can get in without any major issues. There was some more additional dialogue with Flash and Aquaman. Snyder with a small chance that this may be in the extended
- preparing Superman body for the ship is Snyder.
- deleted scene - Cyborg having a premonition during his countdown. During the count of 'one' he starts to see things of possibly future events such as the end of the League, knightmare world and more importantly Darkseid.
- Superman resurrection and battle with the league members is mostly Snyder with bits trimmed down.
- Flash mentioning 'pet semenetary' is Whedon
- Flash actively tries to kick Superman during their fight which was cut
- Anytime Superman is talking during this is Whedon, even 'do you bleed?'
- Batman making a quip about if he's bleeding is Whedon
- Steppenwolf stealing the last box is the same in all versions
- Superman coming home to his farm with Lois is Snyder.
- Gang discussing their plan of attack now is Whedon
- Batman and Wonder Woman talking about leadership and her fixing his arm is all Whedon
- Superman talking about the ring is Snyder and cut. Superman talking to Lois in the field is Whedon. Not sure if Martha showing up to meet her son is Whedon or Snyder
- Steppenwolf preparing the unification is the same in all versions
- Cyborg finding the location is Whedon which leads to the gang getting on the ship is Snyder
- deleted scene of Superman coming back to the kryptonian ship and getting his suit back. VFX was finished so maybe extended version
- Aquaman with the lasso of Truth is all Whedon, Gal again wasn't here so body double in the wide shot with Gal elements being shot later
- Batman taking down the shield and the league helping each other out to reach Steppenwolf is Snyder. Close up of Wonder Woman smiling is a Whedon as well Batman making quips during this scene
- Deleted scenes - showing various people around the worlds reacting to the unification process as red skies and lightening start to happen (Martha/Lois, Cyborg Dad, Gordon, Aquaman village at the beginning, london and so forth)
- Trailer scene with Wonder Woman saying 'shall we?' with Aquaman and Cyborg was adjusted. 'Shall we' was cut and replaced with the new Whedon line
- Cyborg and Flash stuff here is mostly now all Whedon
- Batman telling Flash to get people to safety is Whedon
- lots of Wonder Woman and Aquaman fighting are adjusted or reordered but still Snyder
- Superman coming back is all Whedon. There was a wide shot of Superman during the 'I like truth' which was removed but the final edit of how it plays out is better in my opinion
- Superman with the slow mo punch dodge is Snyder. As before anything with Superman talking is Whedon during this finale
- Original previs was Wonder Woman cutting off Steppenwolf head but later changed. Steppenwolf demise was reworked a few times
- Steppenwolf fear demise through the boomtube is Whedon
- there was concept art showing the trinity looking through the end of the boomtube revealing Darkseid. Unsure if this element was ever filmed as the movie itself never had it in any version I saw.
- The slow mo shot of all of them with Flash fist bumping Cyborg is Snyder
- close up with the trinity is three different elements composited together as the actors were not available at the same time.
- the end montage is Snyder (yes, even that weird run Flash does) with Whedon element being Wonder Woman stopping the robbery in London
Flash doing the race with Superman = Whedon
Lex discussing forming their own league = Snyder
My main thought which was a better version:
- I believe that Snyder original version was more leading towards a UC style edit like BvS as I felt there was a lot of moments for the movie to breath but with some wtf ness in characters moments (flash basically standing around and doing nothing when he could do stuff) where as I feel Whedon had a lot more character beats and dialogue between them to punch it up.
- I'm not too sure if there will be an extended version but if there was I can easily see an additional 10-20 minutes.
As always feel free to ask me for some more details
So Justice League really was a dud, huh?
I'm mulling over the film now and it really lacks personality. It's a film starring the Justice League, and not a drop more than that.
They should really stick to doing films if and when they have a good idea for one. Something exciting. Justice League just felt obligatory.
Edit: Thanks Ultracal, that'll be an interesting read. Maybe worth a thread?
They will just be at best stand alone films like WB DC of old imo.
Spoiler: A question
If you don't mind answering, how about the "He said you'd come. Let's hope you're not too late" scene. Was that just Alfred directing Superman to Russia?
Looks like a lot got cut. Wonder how the Directors guild evaluated this. Seems like less than 75% was Snyder's. That bit of Cyborg's premonition is HYPE. I'm sad it didn't make it. Also,
- Anytime Superman is talking during this is Whedon, even 'do you bleed?'
- Batman making a quip about if he's bleeding is Whedon
I fucking knew it lol
Does anyone else feel like they kind of scaled down Superman/Wonder Woman's physical strength?
I mean, in BvS and MoS they were hurling each other through multiple buildings, punching them across the city and such. Here, Steppenwolf just throws WW/Aquaman against walls and they crack, slightly.
Honesty most of the stuff I took issue with is all in whedons cuts, I'm not sure he really saved anything at this point...
I really feel for the guy I was hoping this would be a win for him and the actors involved.
damn you Whedon :(
The odd thing is I never even saw that bit in the movie in any version until that trailer came out but I'm going to say yes it is Alfred directing Superman.
When that trailer came out I was surprised over that and Flash breaking the glass with his finger were scenes that weren't even given to us
The petition is getting traction in the media
There's a lot of enjoyable character moments and explanation there.
Yeah, it's a bit weird to look at the film if you remove all the Whedon stuff and see where it ends up. Some stuff I'd rather they kept, some stuff I wish they didn't add. What really irks me is that all the
heroes directing the others to save people seems to be all Whedon, which means Zack/Terrio again failed to even do the most basic of actions when involving HEROES.
I hope the film bombs now.
Thanks for your post ultracal31, very interesting.
I'd love to see the Snyder cut. Or even just a longer version. Not saying it would necessarily be better but I'm just curious, there's so much from the trailers that's missing.
I have no idea how "feature complete" the movie was before Snyder had to go...
Midriff Amazons was Snyder. Wonder Woman butt shot meeting Cyborg, also Snyder.
That leaves the faceplant and the fact that neither had any idea what to do with Lois.