1. Can we move this thread back to the hangouts?
2. Very interesting that the next DCEU film is more than a year away...
2. Very interesting that the next DCEU film is more than a year away...
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
DCEU Era |OT| Crisis on Infinite Forums
- Thread starter Loxley
- Start date
- Status
Every time Civil War is brought up, it kicks off a discussion about who was right, Tony or Cap. On one side you have people saying that Tony was right because he wanted oversight and Cap was arrogant to think that "the safest hands are [their] own". On the other side you have people saying that Cap was right because institutions in the Marvel Universe have shown to be unreliable over and over again and because Tony's guilt over the actions of Age of Ultron is clouding his judgement. But then again, Bucky's involvement makes Steve biased etc. The entire point of Civil War is how personal matters can interfere in ideological conflicts. It's not high cinema and it is kind of a "dub" message. But the fact that it plays with audiences values to the point where you have wildly differing opinions on who was right is testament to its strengths as a film. That's successful storytelling.
In retrospect, Flash S1 sticks out like a sore thumb among these CW shows.
Yall. It'll be ok. It's just movies. I have a feeling WB couldn't wait to get this movie out there and over with tbh. They'll probably focus on solo adventures mostly after this. WW was good. Aquaman is finished and had no issues we know of. Things will be fine.
The only thing I can see saving the movie in terms of B.O is a positive cinemascore and word of mouth. The movie will need legs because the buzz around it is poor at the moment.
While I was taking my morning shower, as I rubbed my head with Head and Shoulders Champoo I started reminiscing about how the DCEU was handled through what we may call "The Snyder phase", culminating with Justice League.
I personally blame Marvel Studios for their critic bribery
(I'm kidding fellow MCU lurkers! Please understand ;) )
But seriously,although I personally like most of the movies, I think this was a textbook example of how poor planning + studio meddling can make or break a cinematic universe. In this case I would say most decisions WB made backfired.
Back in 2011, after the success of Iron Man, WB wanted to get in on the game and gave us Green Lantern, starring Van Wilder as Hal Jordan. Although this lighthearted fun "by the numbers" superhero outing bombed hard, and to this day people want to forget that movie even existed. This was supposed to be the first chapter in a DC cinematic universe.
Imagine a world where Green Lantern was a success and Ryan Reynolds became the godfather of the DCEU, much in the way RDJ is in the MCU.
WB had Ryan, one of the most loveable, funny and charismatic leading men within their ranks, but alas it was not to happen, and now we got Ben Affleck which never looked as enthusiastic as his co-stars are regarding their characters, but I digress..
Anyway, WB were trying to figure out what they would do next, and one of the suits realized how successful Nolan was with his serious grounded take on Batman and his monologging butler about the "soize" of those tangerines.
Then they had an epiphany and realized: Let's apply this asthetic always! Superman is next. Call Goyer and Zack Snyder.
Now, hindsight is 20/20, and Zack is regarded nowadays as a guy who doesn't understand the characters judging by his risky interpretations, but there was a time, in a galaxy far away when Zack Snyder was actually known to stick by the source material as much as he could (or even too much, as some have argued), squid or no squid.
Then MoS came out, with some middling reviews and Zack's choices began to be questioned, but the movie did well enough so Snyder had full input for the sequel. Enter BvS, the almost 4 hour epic approved by WB....until they got cold feet and demanded Zack to cut the movie down and make it more Batman centric for money reasons.
Hello world, here's BvS Theatrical version. Thing turned for the worst, WB were in panic, Got Ayer for Suicide Squad but gave him like a month to write a script and put him on directing duties. WB being WB decided the movie wasn't MTV enough, so "we'll take care of it". Movie made money, sure, but it was still a disaster, the DCEU brand was in a bad light.
Then it came Wonder Woman to save the day, it's amazing what happens when the studios put the right people in charge and take a step back. This one is still the shining beacon for many.
Then it was JL's turn, although the DCEU brand regained a bit of faith, Zack's track record wasn't exactly hype material. Again a lot of changes were made post-BvS , Zack had to recruit some help for the reshoots, tragedy happened and he had to relegate the reigns entirely to another person, and once again WB stepped in demanding the movie should come under 2 hours. And now apparently the movie, although did some good course redirecting, is estimated to underperform, and it's kinda hard to deny that one of the reasons is that the DCEU is a poisoned well as far as brand goes by this point.
Here's hoping the next phase will do better.
I personally blame Marvel Studios for their critic bribery
(I'm kidding fellow MCU lurkers! Please understand ;) )
But seriously,although I personally like most of the movies, I think this was a textbook example of how poor planning + studio meddling can make or break a cinematic universe. In this case I would say most decisions WB made backfired.
Back in 2011, after the success of Iron Man, WB wanted to get in on the game and gave us Green Lantern, starring Van Wilder as Hal Jordan. Although this lighthearted fun "by the numbers" superhero outing bombed hard, and to this day people want to forget that movie even existed. This was supposed to be the first chapter in a DC cinematic universe.
Imagine a world where Green Lantern was a success and Ryan Reynolds became the godfather of the DCEU, much in the way RDJ is in the MCU.
WB had Ryan, one of the most loveable, funny and charismatic leading men within their ranks, but alas it was not to happen, and now we got Ben Affleck which never looked as enthusiastic as his co-stars are regarding their characters, but I digress..
Anyway, WB were trying to figure out what they would do next, and one of the suits realized how successful Nolan was with his serious grounded take on Batman and his monologging butler about the "soize" of those tangerines.
Then they had an epiphany and realized: Let's apply this asthetic always! Superman is next. Call Goyer and Zack Snyder.
Now, hindsight is 20/20, and Zack is regarded nowadays as a guy who doesn't understand the characters judging by his risky interpretations, but there was a time, in a galaxy far away when Zack Snyder was actually known to stick by the source material as much as he could (or even too much, as some have argued), squid or no squid.
Then MoS came out, with some middling reviews and Zack's choices began to be questioned, but the movie did well enough so Snyder had full input for the sequel. Enter BvS, the almost 4 hour epic approved by WB....until they got cold feet and demanded Zack to cut the movie down and make it more Batman centric for money reasons.
Hello world, here's BvS Theatrical version. Thing turned for the worst, WB were in panic, Got Ayer for Suicide Squad but gave him like a month to write a script and put him on directing duties. WB being WB decided the movie wasn't MTV enough, so "we'll take care of it". Movie made money, sure, but it was still a disaster, the DCEU brand was in a bad light.
Then it came Wonder Woman to save the day, it's amazing what happens when the studios put the right people in charge and take a step back. This one is still the shining beacon for many.
Then it was JL's turn, although the DCEU brand regained a bit of faith, Zack's track record wasn't exactly hype material. Again a lot of changes were made post-BvS , Zack had to recruit some help for the reshoots, tragedy happened and he had to relegate the reigns entirely to another person, and once again WB stepped in demanding the movie should come under 2 hours. And now apparently the movie, although did some good course redirecting, is estimated to underperform, and it's kinda hard to deny that one of the reasons is that the DCEU is a poisoned well as far as brand goes by this point.
Here's hoping the next phase will do better.
Cap only believes the Avengers are above the law when it suits his needs. In both Avengers and Winter Solider he chastise's Fury for wanting to be prepared. He equally does the same too Tony saying they'll do down fighting together.
However when it was his turn to chose the well being of others over his personal gain, Steve chose his friend who was a potential danger to everyone around him and broke up the Avengers whilst doing so.
However when it was his turn to chose the well being of others over his personal gain, Steve chose his friend who was a potential danger to everyone around him and broke up the Avengers whilst doing so.
I don't think the DCEU is a poisoned well. wW proved that we just need good movies. Any, and I do mean any, comic book movie can do well at the box office if it's good nowadays with good reviews. All you need is good buzz and good word of mouth and people will see it. Even Shazam.
Ouch. Harsh from the Viper.
Affleck gone. Cavill maybe gone.
Again, they've done most of the changes already. Aquaman is in the hopper. Wonder Woman 2 is coming. Shazam will probably stay on track. The Batman is pushed into production sooner rather than later. Suicide Squad 2 probably stays on the schedule.
Everything else is up in the air. You don't do Batgirl and Nightwing if you can't get Batman down right. Cyborg and Flash probably need films, but I feel like they'll wait until Aquaman shakes out.
Yes. We kept saying that in the last thread. Framing, cinematography, and whatnot matter far more than what the text is saying.
It's going to have no legs. It might get tripped up by Coco and have is legs blasted off by TLJ.
This goes into the discussion of story vs essence and I'd argue that the reason why people like Batman v Superman in the first place is also essence. Snyder is an excellent aestheticist that can pull you in into his gritty, dour, pseudo-objectivist worlds - if you're perceptive to them. But it all happens on an essence level and not really story.
It's actually a great thing Aquaman is so far off. Plenty of time to forget that JL even happened.
Momo was cool, but he had nothing at all to do really. Wan will surely fix that.
Momo was cool, but he had nothing at all to do really. Wan will surely fix that.
Yeah but the solo pic they just announced though, I hope that doesn't go off track
SW is a month away. Legs or not for these movies it was going to taper off around then anyway.
WB right now:
Oh it'll be a disappointment, but what else can they change that they haven't already? JL was already into production before BvS was released right? We saw what they did with WW. Aquaman is done and it seems that production had smooth sailing. Now it's just all about if the movie is good. Has a solid cast.
Like I said. Focus on solo adventures. self contained. A Flash movie will have interest, Batman will no doubt.
I'd agree with that. I've always said Snyder can compose an amazing shot and there are moments that hit quite well, it's just... everything else around those shots falters.
I'll always go back to Man of Steel's first flight, which remains a) absolutely well shot and composed and b) pure Snyder.
Two Batman films made a billion. Never worry about Batman. That solo is coming. It's the others that are sketchy.
haha, the first Man of Steel flight is an inspiring, emotionally rewarding scene
in a movie that is anything but
Preview actuals hit $13 million. Puts us in the $110 million range. Not great, but at least not sub-$100 million, unless Saturday and Sunday dive off a cliff.
Don't think it will. The Batman isn't tied to JL. Reeves is pretty much doing a trilogy. It's not going to have to do the job of worldbuilding. Sure there will probably be a reference here or there. But that's where it ends.
Also Batman isn't coming out until like 2020. People will have had their palettes refreshed at that point.
There was far too much meddling from executives who have no experience in filmmaking much less comic books. They brought Johns in but the damage has already been done.
The point is that whoever takes over will fuck up Batman and Deathstroke's fight scenes.
Well Johns definitely helped with WW. the damage didn't hurt that movie at all. They can do some really cool shit with Aquaman. If they can pull that off people will show up. They better not shelve Flash. A movie like that screams fun and awesome with his powers. Cyborg probably isn't happening. Ever. They can get away with doing Batgirl and Nightwing as those movies will significantly smaller budgets.
So please dont get me wrong, I am not here to provoke anything or with bad intentions, I really want to understand something:
Where does that narrative come from, that the DCEU has higher stakes? Its something that really makes me curious, because from my POV, there are no bigger stakes - The biggest thing that would IMO count would be the death of Superman, but his return was already teased like 5 minutes after that, so I would not count that. Other things that come to my mind are the death toll from the fight between Zod and Superman, but even that is not a that special event for a cape movie.
I am not trolling with this, I really just want to know what you are thinking, I tend to get annoyed really fast over the reversed argument (Marvel has no stakes, trolololo), where I can see where its coming from (The good guys save the day, like as good as always in superhero media), but IMO its not really different at DC.
Like I said. I dont want a fight, I just would like to understand your point of view.
Where does that narrative come from, that the DCEU has higher stakes? Its something that really makes me curious, because from my POV, there are no bigger stakes - The biggest thing that would IMO count would be the death of Superman, but his return was already teased like 5 minutes after that, so I would not count that. Other things that come to my mind are the death toll from the fight between Zod and Superman, but even that is not a that special event for a cape movie.
I am not trolling with this, I really just want to know what you are thinking, I tend to get annoyed really fast over the reversed argument (Marvel has no stakes, trolololo), where I can see where its coming from (The good guys save the day, like as good as always in superhero media), but IMO its not really different at DC.
Like I said. I dont want a fight, I just would like to understand your point of view.
Like you said. There really isn't. MOST of these stories boil down to some villain trying to do some fucked up shit and heroes save the day. Like you know they will.
Quite frankly the only movie I think that will have the most stake is Infinity War.
It's done. There's too much smoke at this point.
It really is too bad since I dug Ben's portrayal, even here in JL where he's mostly playing himself.
If it's truly Jake G in the cards though, then I have no worries for Batman's next appearance
Oh no. But he's been the a part of three films and Man of Steel 2 and Justice League 2 aren't on the schedule anytime soon. If JL is too dire in its final take, they may scrap him and recast for an eventual Superman film, which would be 2020+ at the earliest.
I've been in these off topic threads quite a bit but don't think I've ever seen that narrative to be honest. Maybe they mean because JL is full of aliens and gods, so the villains and threats would be larger?
Only a 16 million opening day in China according to this Forbes article. Looks like Ant-Man will out gross it there.
I watched a retrospective and I like how they said Man of Steel is a story of two fathers: Jor-El who wants Clark to move forward uninhibited and help mankind, and Jonathan Kent who is pessimistic and thinks mankind will shun him because he's an alien. The dynamic is that Jon raised him and Clark didn't meet his real father until adulthood. When they meet, Jor-El reaffirms he's now human, not Kryptonian, which is why he says "Krypton had its chance." to Zod. Jor-El is the father Clark should have had and yet all Clark thinks about is Jon.
I think, at least for me, it comes down to showing all the bad things happening, like people being killed instead of just saying it happened. Example is both Avengers movies. Watching them, it looks like all civilians make it out okay and it was just a bad day and no big deal overall for everyone. Sure they may say after the fact that people died in later movies, but that doesn't really have the same effect or mean as much. Show, don't tell.
I also think tone has a lot to with it as well. While and after a certain very bad thing happened in Thor Ragnarok, they ruin the tone by throwing in jokes. I really enjoyed that movie, but that was a poor decision in my opinion
It's more that people are expecting WB to clean house now that it is looking likely that JL is going to fall well short of it's boxoffice expectations.
Its brought up every time these movies are discussed, or at least when the quality is compared.
Thats a point that I can understand
I'd say more because he's not slated in anything. Any movie starring him would be past 2020. At that point It's possible to just recast. Especially since he's been in 3 movies now.
It's how the world is framed. Superman's actions would have consequences in the real world and I liked that they added the perspectives of news organisations, talkshow hosts and government officials. Also, if Zod terraforming the Earth and killing everything on the planet isn't high stakes I don't know what is. Too bad they fucked up JL.
To be fair, Cavill doesn't seem like the type to become out of shape.
If they wanted to bring Superman back four years from now, I think he'd still be up for it.
Snyder isn't the only person in Hollywood capable of putting together a decent fight scene
I think this is a bit of an issue with people on the outside. A Superman film coming out in 2020 would start to see a lot of activity within the next 6 months. Sure it's 2020, but things would be moving very soon.
While understandable, It would be a shame really, I can do without Ben but I really like Cavill. Still hoping he shows up in any of the others standalone movies in some capacity
Blur Studios already gave us the GOAT Batman v Deathstroke fight anyway with the Arkham Origins CGI trailer. Might as well see what Tim Miller is up to these days.
- Status